Wayne Student needs assistance

[Angel96]

Greetings, Angel back again…

 

So yes, I’m a returning student with a policy class at Wayne.  As our group project, we were charged with picking an established State of Michigan Policy that is currently in debate and portray a policy roundtable for our classmates.  Between the forced closure of dispensaries to the legalization initiative/proposal slated for the ballot in 2018, is there a hotter Michigan topic up for debate?

Anyway, we have to come to the roundtable each of us in a different role to offer several different perspectives.  Individually, we all attempted to formally reach out to elected representatives (both sides), law enforcement, dispensary owners, and other licensed professionals who would be willing to give their perspective, on or off the record, regarding the current mm policy and response to proposed policy changes as well as how they would prefer the law to read, what would they add to the policy?  Most of us however, received no response, and the two of us who did initially receive a reply (a dispensary owner and caregiver), once the questions were submitted to then (via e-mail), they are no longer responding to us. 

By the way, the young people in my class informed me that I am wrong to refer to pot as marijuana/marihuana and I should only refer to it as cannabis.  Therefore, I apologize to anyone who I may have offended thus far and I will defer to my more youthful millennial classmates. 😊
 

So now we’re up against a hard deadline with only the role of patient secured for the roundtable.  Therefore, I (we) am desperate for answers as the outline is due to our project manager tomorrow, and I have nothing to contribute. 

Therefore, if people are willing to assist I would be most appreciative. If people want to answer anonymously, please do, just let me know what perspective you are writing from at the end of your post so I can contribute that to my group:
caregiver, substance abuse counselor (the classmate who wants to assume the role of SA counselor is doing so because she heard that the medial professionals at metro Detroit methadone clinics are so anti-cannabis, that they are denying suboxone to any of their patients that test positive for cannabis.   , Teacher (we were ideally seeking a teacher that could speak from the perspective of having a student who is using mm as well as the parent of a student, along with what if any impact that use is having in the classroom, but we re-thought that as being too ideal, so we’re willing to take any perspective);  law enforcement officer, legislator, any other licensed professional and how it impacts your current practice if your patient/clients are mm users. 

Secondly, we’d also like to hear from folks who, although they support mm, are not necessarily in favor of legalizing recreational use and why. 

Lastly, I’ll disclose that I did NOT reach out to NORML as our group assumed that they would be pro marijuana, period, and we wanted to focus on the mm issue, only.

That’s all I have for now.
Thanks in advance to anyone who is willing to respond.

 

 

[Restorium2]

You guys could debate why dispensaries and caregivers are supposed to have the same rules yet only caregivers are held to a limit of 5 patients to legally sell to. It's the 900 pound gorilla at your debate. 

[Angel96]

Thanks for your reply and I’ll definitely add that piece to the dialog.  

[bax]

if LARA allowed caregivers to change patients online, instantly, this would not be an issue.

[Angel96]

So if I understand correctly, you are stating that as a caregiver, I would be limited to five (5) patients however, if I own a dispensary, I can not only sell to caregivers, but also directly to patients, even the caregiver's patients?  In other words, both patients and caregivers can purchase from a dispensary.  Not knowing the culture, I guess I'm a little confused having read that if a patient chooses to have a caregiver, they cannot possess plants.  In my ignorance, I assumed that meant that if the patient chose to have a caregiver, the patient then could ONLY get their medicine from that specific caregiver and the caregiver would be responsible for growing or making medibles personally on behalf of their patients, or if the caregiver chose to visit a dispensary, for whatever product the patient might need that the caregiver didn't necessarily have in stock, dispensaries would be limited to serving either caregivers of patients or patients who do not have caregivers.  So then patients, even if they elect to have a particular caregiver, then have free range as to visiting a dispensary, and getting their medicine personally, without their caregiver being involved.  I mean, I guess it makes sense if the patient is travelling, needs some medicine, and is not travelling with the caregiver.  

Do either or you know why there is a limit of patients to caregivers?

[t-pain]

because the intent was that it was known that not all patients could grow themselves. so caregivers would grow for them.

thats the long and short of it.

 

also the intent was that they didnt want joe schmo growing 10000 plants for 5000 patients either.

 

our law is a mix of other laws from other states, known to pass on ballot proposals. the reasons and limits for each section are mixed and varied and have evolved over time.

[Restorium2]

also the intent was that they didnt want joe schmo growing 10000 plants for 5000 patients either.

Dispensaries go against this intent. Caregivers are held strictly to the intent of one person only selling to 5. 

If you would use the fact that people need choices, and constant supply, to justify a dispensaries existence then why wouldn't the same justification apply to letting

caregivers sell to as many people as a dispensary does? 

When dispensaries were let sell the caregivers should have also been allowed the same rights. 

Any place there are dispensaries, caregivers should have no restrictions just like the dispensaries. 

There is a distinct double standard going on. 

 

[Restorium2]

44 minutes ago, Angel96 said:

So if I understand correctly, you are stating that as a caregiver, I would be limited to five (5) patients however, if I own a dispensary, I can not only sell to caregivers, but also directly to patients, even the caregiver's patients?  In other words, both patients and caregivers can purchase from a dispensary.  Not knowing the culture, I guess I'm a little confused having read that if a patient chooses to have a caregiver, they cannot possess plants.  In my ignorance, I assumed that meant that if the patient chose to have a caregiver, the patient then could ONLY get their medicine from that specific caregiver and the caregiver would be responsible for growing or making medibles personally on behalf of their patients, or if the caregiver chose to visit a dispensary, for whatever product the patient might need that the caregiver didn't necessarily have in stock, dispensaries would be limited to serving either caregivers of patients or patients who do not have caregivers.  So then patients, even if they elect to have a particular caregiver, then have free range as to visiting a dispensary, and getting their medicine personally, without their caregiver being involved.  I mean, I guess it makes sense if the patient is travelling, needs some medicine, and is not travelling with the caregiver.  

Do either or you know why there is a limit of patients to caregivers?

One theory was that with 5 patients, and possibly a 6th with the caregiver being a patient, that allows 72 plants in one grow and the feds get a little touchy about anyone getting close to their red line of 100 plants.

[Angel96]

Ah, good point.  I did see that an advisory bulletin was released Thursday regarding the new application process for dispensaries...

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/lara/BMMR_Application_Advisory_Bulletin_603402_7.pdf

Plus the free press article today about an event in A2 next week

http://www.freep.com/story/news/2017/10/15/medical-marijuana-michigan-licenses/763653001/

 

 

[t-pain]

48 minutes ago, Restorium2 said:

If you would use the fact that people need choices, and constant supply, to justify a dispensaries existence then why wouldn't the same justification apply to letting caregivers sell to as many people as a dispensary does? 

When dispensaries were let sell the caregivers should have also been allowed the same rights. 

Any place there are dispensaries, caregivers should have no restrictions just like the dispensaries. 

There is a distinct double standard going on. 

 

i know your points. i agree the state doesnt care about uninterrupted supplies at all. can you even name a single person in the state govt that could tell you if you could smoke the leaves? why are leaves included in our weight limits??? or you think anyone at LARA or the legislature knows how much is produced per plant? when you have the police lying about people growing indoor plants with 2 pounds on them.

to your second point:

a caregiver with a $35 fee can grow and help for 5 patients.

a dispensary with $10k app fee, $1m insurance, local approval, $5k local fee can sell to as many patients as they can.

 

the difference is the $$$$$$$$$$$$

[t-pain]

On 10/14/2017 at 3:59 PM, Angel96 said:

Between the forced closure of dispensaries to the legalization initiative/proposal slated for the ballot in 2018, is there a hotter Michigan topic up for debate?

Most of us however, received no response, and the two of us who did initially receive a reply (a dispensary owner and caregiver), once the questions were submitted to then (via e-mail), they are no longer responding to us. 

By the way, the young people in my class informed me that I am wrong to refer to pot as marijuana/marihuana and I should only refer to it as cannabis.  Therefore, I apologize to anyone who I may have offended thus far and I will defer to my more youthful millennial classmates. 😊
 

So now we’re up against a hard deadline with only the role of patient secured for the roundtable.  Therefore, I (we) am desperate for answers as the outline is due to our project manager tomorrow, and I have nothing to contribute. 

post the email questions here and we'll try to nail them all down for you.

 

a hotter question, imo, would be michigan's use of emergency managers and the poisoning of an entire city for a year and a half. emergency managers, MDEQ lying about water quality and fighting the EPA... that affects all 9 million people in this state. while medical marijuana is 250,000 patients, 40,000 caregivers and a handful of other people.

 

the young people in your class are right. "marijuana/marihuana" is a spanish word. cannabis sativa is the latin taxonomy name of the plant. it was all called hemp in english speaking countries until the 1900s. when people jumped to vilify the plant by using the spanish word and lumping hemp in with the mexican immigrants. i doubt anyone here is offended, its a long 100+ year battle to fight on words. just re-reading this now, i bet the 'marijuana' name still scares people. if it was called the michigan medical cannabis act, i think it would have more support haha.

[Angel96]

Thanks, I will ask my group to forward their questions and I will do so...thanks!

 

[Angel96]

2 hours ago, t-pain said:

Sorry I don't know how the quote thing above appeared, unless its this darn keyboard, again.

Regarding the Flint Water crisis, I think there is already a team doing that piece, fyi though, someone is coming to Wayne on 11/9, to speak about that very subject, but as I said, I will get with my classmates and hopefully have some questions for you.

G'night.

 

 

 

 

[Restorium2]

12 hours ago, t-pain said:

i know your points. i agree the state doesnt care about uninterrupted supplies at all. can you even name a single person in the state govt that could tell you if you could smoke the leaves? why are leaves included in our weight limits??? or you think anyone at LARA or the legislature knows how much is produced per plant? when you have the police lying about people growing indoor plants with 2 pounds on them.

to your second point:

a caregiver with a $35 fee can grow and help for 5 patients.

a dispensary with $10k app fee, $1m insurance, local approval, $5k local fee can sell to as many patients as they can.

 

the difference is the $$$$$$$$$$$$

I was posting about dispensaries now and in the past. They should be operating under the same law as a caregiver with the same rules. How have we went so far down this road with caregiver discrimination held mute? It's serious abuse that has just been muted by bribes. Will it ever be made right? Or will it be covered up with these new proposed rules you posted? Like the bribes were always just application fees?

[Angel96]

greetings, once again, sorry I've been absent, I work full time and school is building to a crescendo in the next few weeks, so I've been busy.  Working full time there was no way I was going to venture on to this site from my work computer, as I'm sure my employer would find a reason to state I violated Internet usage policies and terminate my employment and I'd like to keep my job...they're hard to come by these days.

I can't stay on long, but I wanted to get posted the questions my classmate wanted to ask the dispensaries, if anyone wants to answer them on behalf of a dispensary or from any point of view.  

  Questions from the dispensary interview that never took place.  

1. How long after the referendum in 2008, were they able to open?  Was there a business model that they followed?
2. What variety of products do they sell?  Herb, Medibles, oils, etc?
3. What type of payment do they accept? Cash/debit/credit, etc.
4. Is there a limit to the quantity of product a patient can purchase?  If so, how is the quantity regulated, per day?  Can caregivers shop for their patients at a dispensary?  Is there a limit to what the caregiver can purchase?
5. How do they feel about the possibility of legalizing marijuana here in Michigan?  Will it be good for their business?  What advantages or disadvantages do you see if legalization happens?
6. Do they grow their own products or purchase from growers in the community?  Are they limited to purchasing only Michigan made products or can they purchase from other states?   If they do purchase product outside of MI, are there limitations in quantity or type?  How is the product then delivered?
7. Do they keep a database of their patients/suppliers, just in case there is a health issue? Such as a nuts in medibles that aren't on the label?  Are there separate licenses to sell different products?  Is a list of suppliers something that has to be provided to LARA or any other state/local agency?
8. What do they think of the order by the state for them to close by December 1 or risk not being granted a license to operate?  Do they know how long before they will be granted a new license (how long will they have to be closed)? Do they have any contingency plans as to how will they serve their customers during this downtime? Are they encouraging patients to buy additional product and stock up?
9. How has the community responded to their presence?
10. What is the zoning requirement?  Do they have to be located away from schools, parks, etc?  Do they have to limit their hours of operation?
11. Have they ever been raided/harassed by law enforcement or anyone else?
12. What do they want us to know about them that the community might not know?

# # #

Thanks in advance,

Angel

 

[bax]

1. dispensaries opened whenever they wanted (and some when they localities ok'd them), some right in 2009. the model they followed was the same model in other states.

2. dispensaries usually sell all types of products. although there was a short time when oils and extracts dissapeared after a court ruling

3. cash

4. probably the limit that the caregiver/pt is allowed to possess. 2.5 oz per patient.

5. they are in the business of selling marijuana. as there are only 250,000 patients, increasing the buying base to all adults could possibly increase their sales.

6. some dispensaries grow themselves, some buy from other caregivers. they detail some of the purchasing in the 'weed wars' and other type shows filming dispensaries in california.
some products are made outside of michigan and are shipped in, like dixie elixirs from colorado. i doubt that the manufacturers ship themselves, more like enterprising independent transporters, making the dangerous travel through non-medical states with cars full of marijuana products.

the state licensed dispensaries will only be able to purchase from michigan processors.

7. current dispensaries probably not.

future dispensaries that will be licensed by the state will have to keep records, seed to sale. all of the growers, processors and manufacturers will also be licensed by LARA , if they want to supply to the state dispensaries.

8. i dont think it was an order. there are public meetings to decide the rules of issuing licenses. some of the board members on the panel to decide the rules gave opinions on not allowing any current dispensary owners to participate in the future dispensary licensing. there was also an idea to have them all close by december so that they could then still apply for a license in the future.

9. some communities have endorsed dispensaries, some have not. you can see editorials in various local newspapers all over michigan with pros/cons. also people complain or support them in various city council meetings all over michigan. just because 63% of voters approved medical marijuana does not mean 63% of people support dispensaries either.

i would say for the most part, most people just dont care. for example in detroit, where a majority of dispensaries are, some people like that there are businesses taking over empty buildings and employing people. other people, especially church groups, have rallied to eradicate medical marijuana dispensaries from being in thier city/districts.

10. new state licensing rules on dispensaries are not formalized yet.

city licensing rules for dispensaries vary from city to city. some cities licensed them for industrial zones or business/retail. others allow neighborhood dispensaries.

most dispensaries have stayed away from schools, due to federal drug free zones.

church groups have called for dispensaries to be zoned out if they are within 1000 feet of other dispensaries, alcohol stores, parks, schools and even churches. in other states where these types of rules were being debated, it has been shown that within city limits (like los angeles) it is almost impossible to have any dispensary that is not near one of those things.

in the end, its medical marijuana, just like any pharmacy, it shouldnt be zoned out of anywhere. only people with state-issued cards (or paperwork) are allowed to purchase. 24 hour pharmacy? well then 24 hour dispensary. drive through pharmacy? well then drive through dispensary. no different. except that medical marijuana is safe and non-toxic with no overdose deaths. while a pharmacy is full of drugs that people overdose on every day in michigan.

11. quite a few dispensary owners / employees have been raided, arrested, charged, prosecuted and jailed. see people v mcqueen.

or this press release from the attorney general bill schuette...
http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,4534,7-164-46849_47203-294663--,00.html

some dispensaries have been robbed/burgled (just like pharmacies), some dispensaries dont report it to police either.

12. a simple fact about the reality of what is going on. the drug dealer on the corner does not check for ID and will sell anything to anyone, including children. the medical marijuana dispensary checks IDs and state issued cards and sells medical marijuana to authorized adults. minors in the MMMP are forced to have parents be their caregivers due to the law, thus only the parents acquire medical marijuana for them.

Edited October 19, 2017 by bax

[Angel96]

Bax, thank you so much.  wow questions beget other questions, my classmate, writing from the dispensary POV, will truly appreciate your detailed answers and helpful link and case law.  ✌🏻

[bax]

forgot to mention, i have no connections to any dispensary. not an owner, not an operator/employee, etc. just my opinions ...

 

good luck!
 

[Angel96]

Thanks, Bax

[Angel96]

Greetings, I’m writing from class.

Is there anyone on this forum that is pro medical marijuana  but reluctant to see recreational marijuana legalized because of the impact it may have on people growing for personal use?

Do you think it’s possible that legalization of recreational marijuana may go the way of tobacco, where the individual can no longer grow their own?

Are there any legal repercussions for medical doctors that may prescribe mm to a patient who is then in a drugged driving accident with injuries, or if the patient has mental health issues and claims the mm made him paranoid?

Thanks, 

Angel

 

[Restorium2]

We have seen in Arizona that a dispensary will lobby to have personal grows shut down in a radius around the dispensary. They used 25 miles as their radius.  That will ensure that they have the maximum income stream. The tax on regulated sales at the dispensary funds law enforcement to carry out these needs for them to make cannabis more exclusive. Private prison interests lobby for law enforcement to include prison in their ways of 'correction'. So you have the potential for cannabis growers that get in the way of dispensary profits going to prison ..... again. 

[t-pain]

"Are there any legal repercussions for medical doctors that may prescribe mm to a patient who is then in a drugged driving accident with injuries, or if the patient has mental health issues and claims the mm made him paranoid?"

 

just like there are no legal repercussions for medical doctors that prescribe prescriptions that disable or interfere with driving motor skills, there are none for doctors who "recommend" medical marijuana to patients.

you see, doctors cannot prescribe marijuana because it is schedule 1 federally. schedule 1 means "it has no medical benefit".

so its not a prescription, ever. there are only 2? people in the usa with a prescription to use marijuana, Irv Rosenfeld and Elvy Musika. who get marijuana from the NIDA grow farm at the university of missouri.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassionate_Investigational_New_Drug_program

 

and as there are no long term side effects of marijuana, there is no cause to show medical malpractice.

marijuana literally is safer than water and aspirin. i'm not talking about drownings in water, but water poisoning, which kills 1-2 people per year. if you drink too much water it lowers your blood sugar until you pass out and die.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

 

Water, just like any other substance, can be considered a poison when over-consumed in a specific period of time. 

[AmishRnot4ganja]

The fact that you are having trouble finding people who are willing to talk about cannabis demonstrates how controversial this substance still is. The real problem we are having now and have been having for the past 40 years is the irrational fear that people have developed thanks to anti cannabis propaganda. Like debating a religious person, logic is ineffective in attempting to make a believer understand an agnostics point of view. They just don't get it. It is the same when debating an anti-cannabis person. They have no evidence that cannabis is harmful, yet they stubbornly cling to outdated lies to justify their stance against cannabis. It is frustrating that we have to put up with their BS.

[Angel96]

Thanks, Bax

[Angel96]

Greetings and thanks for all of the responses, everyone.  A new and follow up question for anyone who wants to answer. One of my husband's oldest friend, who has been smoking since at least the 60s, has never wanted the legalization of marijuana, just the decriminalization of it.  Is that a more reasonable consideration than recreational legalization ?

 

Re the medical doctors who are approving the mm cards in Michigan, if they are NOT prescribing (writing mm on a prescription pad), then what exactly is the doctor affirming, other than the patient has one of the conditions that qualifies for an mm card?

 

Have any of you heard this, I mentioned earlier a classmate told me that she heard about a methadone clinic where docs are dropping patients and if they drop dirty (thc), they are not being given their suboxone. Well I heard from a person whose husband suffers from chronic pain (5 year cancer survivor and lots of health issues post chemo). Anyway, he hasn’t been able to obtain anymore narcotics for chronic pain since his last surgery back in 2015), having admitted to the medical docs that he has an mm card, the attitude has been if you want to go the mm protocol, stating that “nothing else” relieves your pain, that will not be able to obtain narcotics, because you’ve already stated on your mm application that you cannot find any pain relief with fda approved means.  What kind of craziness is that?

 

If if you own a dispensary can you have a bank account?  Wasn’t there some controversy about that in Colorado, but I never heard about this in MI?  Banks are federally insured, are dispensary deposits at risk?  

 

Lastly, if cannabis is still a schedule 1 drug, isn’t that what we need to be working on, getting the Feds to reschedule? I mean isn’t an mm card a great risk?  I heard that if your employer receives any federal funding, they “have” to maintain a drug free work place or risk losing their federal funding.  Anyone know any different?  I know the employment challenge of a cable employee in Colorado that was fired was affirmed by the courts.