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Easy E

Dark Heart Nursery Identifies Cannabis Pathogen, Hop Latent Viroid

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Some recent news that is answering a lot of questions for people losing heirloom clonal stock to "dudding".

https://darkheartnursery.com/news/hop-latent-viroid/

Kevin Jodrey has talked about an open-source method of rejuvenation for plants effected by HLVD. He basically places the plant in a greenhouse in a specific soil composition and allows the health of plant to exceed the replication rate of the viroid there by suppressing it. Although he says his method really just suppresses this viroid as the plant will still test positive for HLVD. He also said in the event of high plant stress that HLVD is likely to take over once again.

Very interesting! Finally cannabis is being studied the way other commodity producing trees and horticultural plants are. I cannot wait for the day federal de-scheduling of cannabis would allow open source information to be developed at universities. Unfortunately the cleaning process developed by DHN is patent pending and comes at a premium, making it out of reach for many small farmers and personal growers/preservationists.

Edited by Easy E

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1 hour ago, Restorium2 said:

Sounds to me like the grower was 'dudding'.

Put the plant in some good soil in a nice greenhouse and it grew like it was supposed to??? Well YAH!

LMAO at least your good for a chuckle from time to time...

 

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1 hour ago, Restorium2 said:

The article was the real joke.

Yes science is a joke... University and industry studies should be halted at once!

Oh wow just smh lol...

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45 minutes ago, Easy E said:

Yes science is a joke... University and industry studies should be halted at once!

Oh wow just smh lol...

Science is no joke. University studies can be great.

Did you actually read what it says?

Let's debate it solely on it's merits.

Condensed version;

They found a previously undiagnosed plant problem.

Patented it.

Then they found a way to overcome it.

The way to overcome it is to give the plant their special soil and put it in their special greenhouse and then it's fine until someone stresses it out again.

None of that smells fishy to you?

Have you ever had heirloom strains?

Are you familiar with the genetic drift theory? Sometimes referred to as 'dudding'? (I guess)

Do you see that no amount of special soil or greenhouses would fix that IF it were so?

Thanks for your consideration of the ideas here. No need for any wowing or smh this time. 

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9 hours ago, Restorium2 said:

Science is no joke. University studies can be great.

Glad you understand that.

Did you actually read what it says?

You undoubtedly did not. If you had we likely would not be in this conversation.

Let's debate it solely on it's merits.

That is the course I would have preferred from the get go myself.

Condensed version;

They found a previously undiagnosed plant problem.

WRONG. DHN scientifically determined "dudding", also referred to as PCIA in the industry, was actually a long know viroid called Hops Latent Viroid (HpLVD or HLVD when abbreviated). HLVD was found decades ago in Hops. The names of pathogens commonly included the name of the plant where they are first discovered.

Patented it.

WRONG. They patented the process they developed to clean plants of the viroid as is common in the industry. (not cannabis industry exclusively, the nursery business is what I am referring to.)

Then they found a way to overcome it.

See above...

The way to overcome it is to give the plant their special soil and put it in their special greenhouse and then it's fine until someone stresses it out again.

This a method Kevin Jodrey pioneered independently, prior to this published research from DHN, in order to help long time California family farmers save their heirloom strains. Again couldn't you have just read everything posted including the article?

None of that smells fishy to you?

No, no fish smell here.

Have you ever had heirloom strains?

Do you even grow? I ask because most people that love and care for the plant don't act like you.

Are you familiar with the genetic drift theory? Sometimes referred to as 'dudding'? (I guess)

Epigenetic drift is what your trying to refer to. Epigenetic drift in clonal plant stock is completely different from HLVD. Although the stress a plant undergoes while infected by any pathogen could cause epigentic drift. Epigenetic drift is thought to be mainly environmental.

Do you see that no amount of special soil or greenhouses would fix that IF it were so?

I clearly stated that Kevin Jodrey said the plant will still carry the viroid, it will just be suppressed by the plants immune system. Also any stressful situation there after would lower plant immunity enough for the viroid to take back over and the plant would start to display symptoms again.

Thanks for your consideration of the ideas here. No need for any wowing or smh this time. 

Wow smh(shaking my head), it's annoying reiterating everything that was said in the original post to someone who I assume did not thoroughly read it.

My responses are now highlighted in red, in a point by point manner, so there will be no confusion.

Edited by Easy E
highlighted my point by point responses in red for ease of understanding.

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Two people can read the same thing and get two different takes on it.

If it's annoying reiterating then don't do it.

In fact, I would avoid anything that makes you want to smack your head.

Good luck with that. 

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45 minutes ago, Restorium2 said:

In fact, I would avoid anything that makes you want to smack your head.

 

smh = shaking my head

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43 minutes ago, Easy E said:

smh = shaking my head

Yes, I understand it's a way to show disapproval or disrespect. Like talking down or laughing at someone. Thanks for the clarification. 

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1 hour ago, Restorium2 said:

Here's one for you;

When you quote someone it's not so you can write inside the quote box. You put what you want to say outside the box. 

My responses are now highlighted in red, in a point by point manner, so there should be no confusion now.

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10 hours ago, Easy E said:

My responses are now highlighted in red, in a point by point manner, so there should be no confusion now.

Have you ever seen this 'dudding' yourself?

 

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    • The purpose of this message is to bring awareness and resolution to an unidentified pathogen that has the ability to severely impact the entire cannabis industry and likely already is. Cases are confirmed in California and Colorado.


      Below is a clear description of the symptoms this plant pathogen causes and supporting information, pictures and links to help identify it. We hope to use our community of breeders, growers, pathologists and scientists to solve this problem before it becomes an epidemic.


      First off, we are not pathologists, we are independent researchers and farmers, but we feel confident that this pathogen is a virus. It causes massive crop loss, widespread reduction in yields and may well be causing high concentrations of calcium oxalate crystals in cannabis, which is harmful to humans. The following is a summary of symptoms of the disease caused by this pathogen:


      In Veg:
       
      • Lack of apical dominance. Plants sometime grow wider than tall.
      • No normal large fan leaf growth. Leaves are generally small and blades tend to point upward with an overall “spiky” appearance.
         
      • The plants have an unusual branch structure, sometimes referred to as “witch-brooming.” Branches often bow down instead of growing up at a steep angle.
      • Short spacing in between nodes, often bunching up with a section of unusually colored stem.
      • Very brittle stems. Branches are thin, weak and rubbery and easily break off and flop around.
      • General lack of vigor and water uptake is impaired.

      In Flowering:
       
      • Overall irregular development. Plants look impaired, behind schedule, and flowers are generally “larfy.” .
      • Slow metabolism. Lack of water uptake.
      • Chlorosis/yellowing. Tends to look nitrogen deficient. This starts at the bottom and moves upward.
      • Lack of resin and trichome production. Weak smell.
         
      • Leaf death
         
      • Wilting and often total plant death over time.
      **Thanks OnTheCrush

      The disease caused by this pathogen is often mistaken for broad mite infestation. This is not a broad mite problem. Infected plants have tested clean for insects, mites of all kinds and for all the major fungal infections, including: Pythium, Fusarium, Rhizoctonia, Verticillium, and Phytophthora.

      Infected plants have however, tested positive for Tobacco Mosaic Virus (TMV). Several online message threads have this disease as labeled “duds” or “duds syndrome.” Attached below are links to several relevant threads that illustrate the severity of this problem. There is no evidence that TMV causes “Duds,” just that TMV was confirmed in some samples from plants infected with “Duds.”

      There seems to be a higher visible infection rate amongst farmers that keep mother plants of popular genetics, particularly, Gorilla Glue #4, OG, Girl Scout Cookies and Sour Diesel. People who clone from previous generations before flowering tend to have far less concentrations of visible infection. This does not mean the plants aren’t infected or that yields are not reduced substantially.

      Our goal with this message is to find people, farmers and professionals that can help identify and solve this problem before it gets worse. Also, if any existing stocks of uninfected major genetic lineages can be identified, it is prudent that they be protected and preserved before they are exposed. If you think you’ve experienced this problem, please respond to this message with any information about your experience you’re willing to provide.

      Healthy on left, infected on right (in veg)

      [IMG]

      Healthy on left, infected on right (in flower)

      [IMG]

      Links with valuable information and history:



      https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/co-dud-collective.73664/


      https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=285743


      https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/what-to-do-with-duds.64342/
       
       
       
      angelina, Crippy, Homesteader and 9 others like this.
    • Ricksauce

      Ricksauce

       
      49
       
      104
       
      18
      Collection of other examples from various threads of Duds in all stages
       
      Dudding in flower 1.jpg
      duds in dried flowers side by side.jpg
      IMG_4024.JPG
      dried duds 2.jpg
       
       
       

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Easy E's Question to me;

Are you even a grower? Because people who love and care for plants don't act like you. 

I've been a grower since the 70's. I have seen all kinds of people grow. Every kind. 

Therefore I have seen a lot of duds. Most times it's the grower's fault. Many times they try to blame it on something else like 'dudding'. By thinking it's not their own mistake they will not ever figure out their mistake.

My point with this article was that if 'better soil and a better grow space' saves the strain then that's all the plants needed in the first place. Doesn't that make sense? I think most real growers would have that on their mind. 

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43 minutes ago, Restorium2 said:

Easy E's Question to me;

Are you even a grower? Because people who love and care for plants don't act like you.

I've been a grower since the 70's. I have seen all kinds of people grow. Every kind. 

Therefore I have seen a lot of duds. Most times it's the grower's fault. Many times they try to blame it on something else like 'dudding'. By thinking it's not their own mistake they will not ever figure out their mistake.

My point with this article was that if 'better soil and a better grow space' saves the strain then that's all the plants needed in the first place. Doesn't that make sense? I think most real growers would have that on their mind. 

My actual question to you: Do you even grow? I ask because most people that love and care for the plant don't act like you. (please don't misrepresent what I post)

I already explained your last question. Twice...

1st try: Kevin Jodrey has talked about an open-source method of rejuvenation for plants effected by HLVD. He basically places the plant in a greenhouse in a specific soil composition and allows the health of plant to exceed the replication rate of the viroid there by suppressing it. Although he says his method really just suppresses this viroid as the plant will still test positive for HLVD. He also said in the event of high plant stress that HLVD is likely to take over once again.

2nd try: I clearly stated that Kevin Jodrey said the plant will still carry the viroid, it will just be suppressed by the plants immune system. Also any stressful situation there after would lower plant immunity enough for the viroid to take back over and the plant would start to display symptoms again.

3rd try: Maybe your confusion is because your unaware how pathogens are transmitted? So I'll try to help. Any plant carrying a pathogen, regardless of infection level or display of symptoms, has the potential for transmission to other plants. Which means it does not "save" the plant. I included that info solely as a point of interest in the not yet completed work that is being done to combat this pathogen. This info suggests there may very well be other methods of remediation that have not yet been fully explored and patented.

Now, are we done here? I will not allow you to create confusion in my post. The point of this post was to share information with the community in hopes of helping others that may be suffering from this pathogen. Please stop pretending your trying to have an intellectual conversation about this topic. That possibility went out the window with your first reply:

On 3/13/2019 at 3:34 PM, Restorium2 said:

Sounds to me like the grower was 'dudding'.

Put the plant in some good soil in a nice greenhouse and it grew like it was supposed to??? Well YAH!

 

P.S. I don't actually care if you grow, what you grow, or how good you grow. Again that was not the point of this thread.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Easy E said:

My actual question to you: Do you even grow? I ask because most people that love and care for the plant don't act like you. (please don't misrepresent what I post)

I already explained your last question. Twice...

1st try: Kevin Jodrey has talked about an open-source method of rejuvenation for plants effected by HLVD. He basically places the plant in a greenhouse in a specific soil composition and allows the health of plant to exceed the replication rate of the viroid there by suppressing it. Although he says his method really just suppresses this viroid as the plant will still test positive for HLVD. He also said in the event of high plant stress that HLVD is likely to take over once again.

2nd try: I clearly stated that Kevin Jodrey said the plant will still carry the viroid, it will just be suppressed by the plants immune system. Also any stressful situation there after would lower plant immunity enough for the viroid to take back over and the plant would start to display symptoms again.

3rd try: Maybe your confusion is because your unaware how pathogens are transmitted? So I'll try to help. Any plant carrying a pathogen, regardless of infection level or display of symptoms, has the potential for transmission to other plants. Which means it does not "save" the plant. I included that info solely as a point of interest in the not yet completed work that is being done to combat this pathogen. This info suggests there may very well be other methods of remediation that have not yet been fully explored and patented.

Now, are we done here? I will not allow you to create confusion in my post. The point of this post was to share information with the community in hopes of helping others that may be suffering from this pathogen. Please stop pretending your trying to have an intellectual conversation about this topic. That possibility went out the window with your first reply:

 

P.S. I don't actually care if you grow, what you grow, or how good you grow. Again that was not the point of this thread.

 

 

 

Not done by a long shot. Been here for better than 10 years and my work is never done. You think you can allow and disallow now? 

I think you should answer my question since I answered yours;

Have you ever seen dudding? A simple answer would be the best.

Learn to live with other's opinions because you are never 'done' with someone. 

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If a plant has to catch this

1 hour ago, Easy E said:

My actual question to you: Do you even grow? I ask because most people that love and care for the plant don't act like you. (please don't misrepresent what I post)

I already explained your last question. Twice...

1st try: Kevin Jodrey has talked about an open-source method of rejuvenation for plants effected by HLVD. He basically places the plant in a greenhouse in a specific soil composition and allows the health of plant to exceed the replication rate of the viroid there by suppressing it. Although he says his method really just suppresses this viroid as the plant will still test positive for HLVD. He also said in the event of high plant stress that HLVD is likely to take over once again.

2nd try: I clearly stated that Kevin Jodrey said the plant will still carry the viroid, it will just be suppressed by the plants immune system. Also any stressful situation there after would lower plant immunity enough for the viroid to take back over and the plant would start to display symptoms again.

3rd try: Maybe your confusion is because your unaware how pathogens are transmitted? So I'll try to help. Any plant carrying a pathogen, regardless of infection level or display of symptoms, has the potential for transmission to other plants. Which means it does not "save" the plant. I included that info solely as a point of interest in the not yet completed work that is being done to combat this pathogen. This info suggests there may very well be other methods of remediation that have not yet been fully explored and patented.

Now, are we done here? I will not allow you to create confusion in my post. The point of this post was to share information with the community in hopes of helping others that may be suffering from this pathogen. Please stop pretending your trying to have an intellectual conversation about this topic. That possibility went out the window with your first reply:

 

P.S. I don't actually care if you grow, what you grow, or how good you grow. Again that was not the point of this thread.

 

 

 

So you are saying a plant would have to catch this from another plant. Then people growing from seed are safe. People who have private grows that don't bring in plants from others are safe.

 

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You may post what ever you like. I will post how I like and answer the questions I feel merit response.  The question of "are we done here" was to see if you understood how sideways this conversation has gone. I do not believe you do. At this point I feel I have said all I can say. I will not be posting any further. Have a good day.

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14 minutes ago, Easy E said:

You may post what ever you like. I will post how I like and answer the questions I feel merit response.  The question of "are we done here" was to see if you understood how sideways this conversation has gone. I do not believe you do. At this point I feel I have said all I can say. I will not be posting any further. Have a good day.

What a shame because we were just getting to the point of actually helping real people who might think they have some 'dudding' going on. 

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Easy E really enjoyed your background detail on "dudding".   I read the article back when it first came out.   I had never heard the term "dudding".   In reading the article I assumed it was some sort of fabricated problem that the tissue culture lab created so they could claim to be better than other labs since they had solved the problem.  

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I had a Royal Queen OG Kush a couple of years ago and it ended up looking exactly like the plants in the pictures. Spindly stems, three fingered leaves and literally only a handful of bud from a three foot plant. I had previously chalked it up to bad genetics but now I have to wonder.

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2 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

I had a Royal Queen OG Kush a couple of years ago and it ended up looking exactly like the plants in the pictures. Spindly stems, three fingered leaves and literally only a handful of bud from a three foot plant. I had previously chalked it up to bad genetics but now I have to wonder.

The experts say, treat her right and she will come back just like she used to be..... Did anyone else catch it from her?

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