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Restorium2

Caregivers Overage Path To Market

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2 hours ago, Restorium2 said:

Doesn't seem to be a path to market for caregivers right now. 

Agreed.   MMMA caregivers that are adhering to the rules do not have much of a path to market at the moment.  Testing costs coupled with three middle men (licensed grower, transporter and provisioning center) between them and the consumer pretty much have eliminated the secondary market for legit caregivers. 

The reality however is that "caregivers" (wink, wink on the definition) are reported to be supplying over 50% of the product sold in licensed provisioning centers.  The black/grey market is thriving.    

I would think that the secondary market for legit caregivers is done.   Eventually the licensed growers will catch up with demand and the only market for a legit caregiver will be their patients.   

 

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2 minutes ago, semicaregiver said:

Agreed.   MMMA caregivers that are adhering to the rules do not have much of a path to market at the moment.  Testing costs coupled with three middle men (licensed grower, transporter and provisioning center) between them and the consumer pretty much have eliminated the secondary market for legit caregivers. 

The reality however is that "caregivers" (wink, wink on the definition) are reported to be supplying over 50% of the product sold in licensed provisioning centers.  The black/grey market is thriving.    

I would think that the secondary market for legit caregivers is done.   Eventually the licensed growers will catch up with demand and the only market for a legit caregiver will be their patients.   

 

Have you been there lately?

I have several contacts inside the provisioning centers and the supplying by caregivers has ended. 

Dried up about Monday August 6th. 

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2 minutes ago, Restorium2 said:

Have you been there lately?

I have several contacts inside the provisioning centers and the supplying by caregivers has ended. 

Dried up about Monday August 6th. 

Agreed, It is illegal for them to buy from a caregiver.  They can however buy from a licensed grower who is buying from "caregivers" that just happened to have 25#'s of overage available.   This will continue until the licensed growers increase in number and bring their full capacity online.  In the meantime the BMA seems content with this wink, wink approach as to where the product is coming from.  

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9 minutes ago, semicaregiver said:

Agreed, It is illegal for them to buy from a caregiver.  They can however buy from a licensed grower who is buying from "caregivers" that just happened to have 25#'s of overage available.   This will continue until the licensed growers increase in number and bring their full capacity online.  In the meantime the BMA seems content with this wink, wink approach as to where the product is coming from.  

Aint happening …..

Not feasible or it would be. 

As far as I can tell it never happened.

The caregiver product at the dispensaries came straight from caregivers. 

The whip came down and killed that. 

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On 8/13/2019 at 6:04 AM, Restorium2 said:

Doesn't seem to be a path to market for caregivers right now. 

Caregiver grown cannabis has dwindled down at the dispensaries. At the same time the prices are climbing. I'm seeing minimums of $200 an ounce on most days now. The quality is good but the business is slowing. Michigan licensed large scale grows are driving the prices up with their dam of the supply. 

Did you forget which thread you were responding to?

Of course there is a path to market and prices are north of $3000 per lb. 

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On 8/13/2019 at 10:16 AM, Restorium2 said:

Aint happening …..

Not feasible or it would be. 

As far as I can tell it never happened.

The caregiver product at the dispensaries came straight from caregivers. 

The whip came down and killed that. 

Trying to figure out why you can’t wrap your head around this?

Either it is a disingenuous misinformation campaign designed to keep others from eating from your plate, which I find hard to believe because I doubt you could supply the needs of one shop let alone the entire state, or you are just very hard headed or possibly naive. 

Of course “caregivers” are feeding the system 25, 50, 100 pounds at a time. 

There, I even put caregiver in quotations for you. Of course as it pertains to this thread, Choice Labs will need to verify you are a card holding caregiver. 

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9 minutes ago, shishka said:

Trying to figure out why you can’t wrap your head around this?

Either it is a disingenuous misinformation campaign designed to keep others from eating from your plate, which I find hard to believe because I doubt you could supply the needs of one shop let alone the entire state, or you are just very hard headed or possibly naive. 

Of course “caregivers” are feeding the system 25, 50, 100 pounds at a time. 

There, I even put caregiver in quotations for you. Of course as it pertains to this thread, Choice Labs will need to verify you are a card holding caregiver. 

I just look at what the dispensaries have for sale. None of it is from caregivers. All of it is from the large State grows.

Also, I ask people I know who work there and they tell me. 

I know one guy who works there who is a caregiver and he can't even get his overages on the shelves.

He did say that he hoped things would change but right now there's no path to market for him using the dispensary. 

Edited by Restorium2

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The difference of opinion here between Shiska and Resto seems to be in the definition of a caregiver.   I believe Resto is correct, there is no path to market for a basement caregiver under the MMMA.   

There is however a path to market for individuals from the black market that are holding themselves out as a "caregiver" (they most likely hold caregiver cards).    These "caregivers" have a path to market by selling to the licensed growers in lots of 10, 25 even 50 pounds. They may have grown the flower in a 72 plant commercial style grow or perhaps imported from the west coast.   On his point, Shiska is correct.  These "caregivers" are out there and they are selling to the licensed growers.  When the product reaches the dispensary it is tested product from a licensed grower.

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1 minute ago, semicaregiver said:

The difference of opinion here between Shiska and Resto seems to be in the definition of a caregiver.   I believe Resto is correct, there is no path to market for a basement caregiver under the MMMA.   

There is however a path to market for individuals from the black market that are holding themselves out as a "caregiver" (they most likely hold caregiver cards).    These "caregivers" have a path to market by selling to the licensed growers in lots of 10, 25 even 50 pounds. They may have grown the flower in a 72 plant commercial style grow or perhaps imported from the west coast.   On his point, Shiska is correct.  These "caregivers" are out there and they are selling to the licensed growers.  When the product reaches the dispensary it is tested product from a licensed grower.

The guy I know who is a 'caregiver' that works at Dispo paid $10000 for a 72 plant outside grow that someone manages for him.

There are a bunch of these 72 plant grows at the same place. I have seen them. 

Yet the caregiver I know doesn't think he will be able to get it on the dispensary shelves.

So you guys can 'guess' all day long. I know someone who doesn't have to guess. They know.

That's how things have always been here. Some guess and others who actually interact with real players know and don't have to guess.

One thing that's always the same; The people who guess are usually wrong and the ones who are out there talking with the real deal people know. That's why I take the time to go out and ask questions even though I don't need to. I want to stay right on top of the situation because it makes me feel like I'm in a better position of strength with the law. I don't ever want to be left behind so I get my arse out there and talk with people who know because they are living it. I'm happy to pass that on here on the site, helping others be in a position of strength. 

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54 minutes ago, shishka said:

Trying to figure out why you can’t wrap your head around this?

Either it is a disingenuous misinformation campaign designed to keep others from eating from your plate, which I find hard to believe because I doubt you could supply the needs of one shop let alone the entire state, or you are just very hard headed or possibly naive. 

Of course “caregivers” are feeding the system 25, 50, 100 pounds at a time. 

There, I even put caregiver in quotations for you. Of course as it pertains to this thread, Choice Labs will need to verify you are a card holding caregiver. 

Right. The simple answer is that I know what I'm talking about because nothing else you can think of makes any sense. You can't even think up a conspiracy theory that fits. 

What I am is just a person who likes to know what is going on, makes an effort to be that person, and likes to help other with that info. 

That's the only thing that makes sense here because it's God's honest truth. 

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49 minutes ago, semicaregiver said:

The difference of opinion here between Shiska and Resto seems to be in the definition of a caregiver.   I believe Resto is correct, there is no path to market for a basement caregiver under the MMMA.   

There is however a path to market for individuals from the black market that are holding themselves out as a "caregiver" (they most likely hold caregiver cards).    These "caregivers" have a path to market by selling to the licensed growers in lots of 10, 25 even 50 pounds. They may have grown the flower in a 72 plant commercial style grow or perhaps imported from the west coast.   On his point, Shiska is correct.  These "caregivers" are out there and they are selling to the licensed growers.  When the product reaches the dispensary it is tested product from a licensed grower.

That's a myth.

The large growers, the State grows, are not buying anything. Why would they? They would rather keep their monopoly in tact. Sell what they grow and that's it. The profit margin is so much higher than 'flipping' black market weed.

I have asked them if they want to buy. They just say that they have a 1500 plant grow, we are not buying we are selling. Programmed to sell, not buy. The dispensaries buy and sell but the whip came down and they can only buy from the State grows now. Whatever happened made them scared enough to quit buying from caregivers. There's always some dumbarse that will go against the grain. Someone with their head in the sand. So I'm sure there are some dispensaries somewhere that do just what they want and dam the torpedoes, no rules. 

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Just got some more specific information on why the caregiver product isn't at the dispensaries anymore.

The big grows are buying the dispensaries.

Specific to confirm;

High Life Farms bought Dispo.

All the dispensaries are being bought.

The grows realized they had to integrate and kick out the caregivers because they can't compete in a fair market. Nothing was stopping the dispensaries from buying from caregivers directly. Wasn't being enforced. So they had to buy the dispensaries to keep their monopoly pricing. I heard this from a dispensary owner. 

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So caregivers have a clear path to market right now. No testing. No fees.

Just find a dispensary that hasn't been bought out by a large commercial growing interest and sell them your overages.

If you find one let us know. The best deals will be found there. No manufactured monopoly and low overhead produced cannabis. 

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Resto,

Does the fact that LARA has forbidden licensed provisioning centers from buying from caregivers enter into your analysis?  

 

https://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-89334_79571_79784-496342--,00.html

Marijuana Regulatory Agency Addresses Recent Court Decisions

Media Contact: LARA Communications 517-335-LARA (5272)
Email: mediainfo@michigan.gov

May 2, 2019 – As of April 30, 2019, the Marijuana Regulatory Agency (MRA) was established via Governor Whitmer’s Executive Order 2019-7. Over the next several weeks, the MRA, led by Executive Director Andrew Brisbo, will be implementing new practices to streamline the application process and ensure access to safe marijuana products.

Earlier this week, the Court of Claims issued several orders relative to the operation of unlicensed facilities and access to caregiver product. The MRA has reviewed the orders and is evaluating whether any further legal action is appropriate.

The agency will be reviewing applications for those that paid an application fee but never submitted a complete application and therefore never had it considered by the Medical Marihuana Licensing Board. This review will include applicants that never responded to notices of deficiency and/or failed to provide supplemental applications for owners, as required by the administrative rules. The MRA will swiftly provide these applicants – and others similarly situated – an approval or denial of their application.

As to caregiver product, until further notice, the MRA will not take disciplinary action against a licensee in the circumstances provided for in the Medical Marihuana Licensing Board’s March 21, 2019 resolution. The full resolution is available here.

Below is a summary of the provisions of the resolution regarding caregiver product that will remain in effect until the MRA publishes an advisory bulletin on this issue.

Licensed Provisioning Centers

  • Licensees may obtain marijuana products only from a licensed grower or licensed processor.

  • Licensees must obtain patient consent on a form provided by the MRA prior to selling any marijuana products obtained from a caregiver on or before April 30, 2019 that have not been tested in full compliance with the law and administrative rules.

  • Licensees must enter all inventory into the statewide monitoring system immediately upon receipt.

  • Licensees, before any sale or transfer, must verify – and confirm with government issued photo identification – with the statewide monitoring system that a patient or primary caregiver holds a valid registry identification card.

  • Licensees must enter all sales in the statewide monitoring system and must determine sales will not exceed daily purchasing limits.

  • Licensees must notify the MRA within one business day of becoming aware of any adverse reaction to a marijuana product sold or transferred. 

Licensed Growers and Licensed Processors:

  • Licensees may obtain marijuana products from caregivers.

  • Licensees must enter all inventory into the statewide monitoring system immediately upon receipt.

  • Licensees may only transfer marijuana products that have been tested in full compliance with the law and administrative rules.

  • Licensees must tag or package all inventory that has been identified in the statewide monitoring system.

  • Licensees must transfer marijuana products by means of a secure transporter, except where exempted under law.

  • Licensees must notify the MRA within one business day of becoming aware of any adverse reaction to a marijuana product sold or transferred.

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9 minutes ago, semicaregiver said:

Resto,

Does the fact that LARA has forbidden licensed provisioning centers from buying from caregivers enter into your analysis?  

 

 

It did on paper. 

But when I waded out into the real world of dispensaries and dispensary owners I found that what is on paper isn't applying in the way we have been programmed to think. 

Basically, no one is enforcing the state rules. 

First, the dispensaries realized it.

They just kept buying from caregivers and kept some state supply on the shelves too.

Then the big state grows realized it.

So they went with plan B, buy the stores and control what's on the shelves that way. 

Even the Canada grows are buying Michigan dispensaries.

So the hunt is on for dispensaries that haven't sold out to the rapidly integrating large grows. 

They are still opening up here and there. There are still large investors with state grows, like Calvin Johnson, who have yet to buy a dispensary.

So the whole situation is fluid. 

Lots of money making ideas out there.

People realizing that if they pay the locals and the state, open a dispensary, buy from caregivers, make a name for themselves, then sell the store to the highest bidder, they just made a fortune. 

This is all revolving around the fact that has been there since the beginning that no one can compete with caregiver grows.

There's little enticement for law enforcement to get involved now since legalization and the general acceptance of cannabis with the public has made it less profitable and just a general hassle to make a major convictions like they used to be able to. 

Everyone has realized that cannabis is less dangerous than cigs and beer.  So it's just a money game now. 

If the big grows could just sue the dispensaries that would have happened but they decided to buy them instead. 

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1 hour ago, Restorium2 said:

....If the big grows could just sue the dispensaries that would have happened but they decided to buy them instead. 

They did.  The May 2 memo from LARA was the result of a Court of Claims case that Green Peak brought against LARA. 

I believe you are correct re: dispensary business.   With cities limiting locations and #'s the money play is to get a good location, establish it with a good rep and cash in.

 

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So they sue, win, and the result is a memo that doesn't get enforced. That must have hurt their feelings. So they threw money at it and own a dispensary with not much business anymore. How's that working? 

We are right back at the war between the caregivers and big money. It's been nice working together with the dispensaries for a while. Learned to like dispensaries. They will start again with the 'untested' BS soon. Cutting down caregivers. They fight dirty. 

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1 minute ago, semicaregiver said:

Green Peak is opening 19 of their own.  Opened their first one in Bay City last month under the name Sky Mint

https://mibiz.com/sections/economic-development/michigan-marijuana-businesses-spar-amid-regulatory-uncertainty

Same as the rest like that. $200 for stuff that no one I know likes much. The decent stuff is up from that. $300. 

As compared with the dispensaries selling for caregivers letting decent stuff go for $150. 

Some caregivers are happy the prices at the dispensaries are going up.

Most of us believe our time and expertise is worth $200 an ounce when we succeed with our crops and grow something great.

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