Ever Heard Of This? "education-Limited" Dr.s Can't Sign?

[tamara101972]

I have been waiting since 5/5/10, when my check was cashed, for my renewal. Apparently, despite having my correct address, and despite having sent me cards/forms/etc. successfully for a year, they couldn't get my address right when they sent me a DENIAL letter because my dr. is "Education-Limited", despite having prescription rights and being a legally certified physician, licensed in MI...?

 

Is there anything anywhere that says a resident can not sign? Here is the email thread:

 

Melissa,

 

I really don'y understand how the denial letter came back to you and was not re-mailed to my proper address, as the caregiver card for my husband arrived with no incident to the same address. I am extremely disappointed in how this was handled. Isn't there a time limit that I have to get my renewal in before I have to completely re-apply? Am I now going to have to re-apply all over again? What paperwork am I supposed to have filled out at this point??? This could have easily been taken care of in a short amount of time had the denial letter and the reasons behind it been sent. Not to mention there is NOTHING in the literature that I have seen that makes my physician unable to sign for me as he is a resident, not the attending. I am now vulnerable to prosecution because of this? Can I have his attending complete a new form and fax it to you? Will my application now be expedited due to this issue, once I have my physician's attending complete the form? I can not tell you how devastating this is for me as I have over 2 decades of documentation for my condition and completed the form per the instructions provided. is there anywhere on your site that states this? Please direct me to it as I am horrified if this information has not yet been made public!

 

Tamara XXXXX

 

 

 

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From: BHP-MMMPINFO <BHP-MMMPINFO@michigan.gov>

To: Tamara XXXXX

Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 9:45:18 AM

Subject: RE: renewals

 

 

Tamara:

There was an error in entering information in our system, and a denial letter did not reach you; it came back to us. I will resend it to your correct address. The physician who signed your certification is "Educational Limited." A complete certification must be signed by a fully licensed Michigan physician. Therefore, you will need to take the Physician Certification to another physician who is fully licensed and resubmit your renewal application.

You should receive your denial letter shortly.

I am sorry for any inconvenience.

Regards,

Melissa M. Peters

Medical Marihuana Program Coordinator

Health Regulatory Division, Bureau of Health Professions

 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this email message, including any attachments, from the Michigan Department of Community Health is intended solely for the use of the above named recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution of any confidential and/or privileged information contained in this email is expressly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy any and all of the original message.

 

 

 

 

 

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From: Tamara XXXXX

Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 4:21 PM

To: BHP-MMMPINFO

Subject: Re: renewals

 

 

It was on a renewal application. My caregiver was also changed to Charles XXXXX. For some reason he immediately received a card that was good for about 1 week before it expired so some kind of processing has occurred however neither of us have received the renewed cards and I never received one with the new caregiver's name on it at all.

 

Tamara

 

 

 

 

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From: BHP-MMMPINFO <BHP-MMMPINFO@michigan.gov>

To: Tamara XXXXX

Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 1:52:18 PM

Subject: RE: renewals

 

 

Ms. XXXXX:

Was your application completed on a renewal application or an original application?

Regards,

Melissa M. Peters

Medical Marihuana Program Coordinator

Health Regulatory Division, Bureau of Health Professions

 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this email message, including any attachments, from the Michigan Department of Community Health is intended solely for the use of the above named recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution of any confidential and/or privileged information contained in this email is expressly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy any and all of the original message.

 

 

 

 

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From: Tamara XXXXX

Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 5:34 PM

To: BHP-MMMPINFO

Subject: renewals

 

 

Hi,

 

Are renewals processed any faster than initial medical marihuana card applications? My check for my renewal was cashed on 5/5/2010, I have seen others get their renewals in as little as 3 weeks, why is mine taking so long? Is there any way I can find out when my renewal will be processed?

 

Thank You,

 

Tamara XXXXXX

registry #P103340-100601

[DetroitPassionCenter]

Yes, this has happened before that I am aware of.

 

Who was your Dr and what kind of Dr are they?

 

They must be a state licensed MD or DO.

 

Did you have DC, DDS or someone else sign it?

An out of state Dr?

 

I think the Dr is the one who screwed up here, please tell us what kinda Dr he is.

[JohnB RPh]

That does seem an odd determination by the state. Did the prescriber who signed your recommendation have an M.D. or D.O. after his name? Typically, "residents" are still fully licensed physicians who are completing a period of years of specialty training (surgery, pediatrics, etc) under the auspices of an attending physician. That's always been my understanding, anyway.

[tamara101972]

My Dr. is a resident at the U. of MI and has been my physician for a couple to 3 years now. I would think he would be licensed in the state of MI if he can prescribe narcs in MI, right? He's a U. of MI trained dr. so I would think he's licensed in MI....

 

The U. of MI is a teaching hospital, he is a resident, meaning an attending oversees him for 4 years (total) but he does have full 'script rights so I would think he is fully licensed.

 

Oh and it is an "MD" behind his name.

[DetroitPassionCenter]

 

What is his specialty if that is not too revealing of any condition you may have and want to keep private.

 

This does not sound right at all as you say he is a MD, I can't think of any MD or DO who would

not be allowed to write for this????

 

I may be mistaken of course but as I said if it was a DC, DDS, DPM or something along those lines I could

understand but this just does not make any sense......

 

I would REALLY ask them what they heck they are talking about. Since you have an ongoing relationship with

this Dr and he is a Dr through U of M I would take this letter to him and ask him what it is all about as I am willing

to bet he will give them a call himself as I know if I spent the time in school he has I would be P'D off that they were

saying I am not qualified!

[tamara101972]

found this link that explains things, turns out residents are NOT "Fully licensed" Dr.s!

 

http://patients.about.com/b/2008/08/04/exhausted-junior-doctors-may-be-caring-for-you.htm

 

I wrote him and asked him to have his attending fill out the form, keep your fingers crossed for me. Maybe this will help someone else not make the same mistake

[DetroitPassionCenter]

Very good info, thank you for sharing it with us! I was unaware of this and honestly am quite surprised by it.

 

I hope it gets cleared up SUPER QUICKLY for you!!!

[JohnB RPh]

My Dr. is a resident at the U. of MI and has been my physician for a couple to 3 years now. I would think he would be licensed in the state of MI if he can prescribe narcs in MI, right? He's a U. of MI trained dr. so I would think he's licensed in MI....The U. of MI is a teaching hospital, he is a resident, meaning an attending oversees him for 4 years (total) but he does have full 'script rights so I would think he is fully licensed. Oh and it is an "MD" behind his name.

 

I somewhat disagree with the information provided in your link. A resident is not a student, but a fully qualified Medical Doctor who is receiving advanced training in a specialty field. The only thing I can think of is that I think to become fully licensed physicians need to complete at least 3 years of residency of some form, I could be wrong about this.

 

I really don't understand the states position on this, then, based on the information you provided. If he's an MD, I would dispense Oxycontin and other c2 prescriptions from him. Especially from a third year resident, which is actually pretty high on the pecking order of residents. We do it all the time, although granted it is under the DEA registration number of the hospital where they are receiving their residency. Why can he not recommend someone for a card?

 

I really don't understand this. There is no question in my mind he could prescribe any controlled substance he chose, medical marijuana recommendation should NOT be an issue here.

[christinax4]

 

I wrote him and asked him to have his attending fill out the form, keep your fingers crossed for me. Maybe this will help someone else not make the same mistake

 

 

its total BS that u have to go thru this.

[tamara101972]

Thanks for all the support, I agree it's stupid that he can't attest to my medical condition, which I have 2 decades of records for (epilepsy & chronic pain both stemming from a car accident many, many moons ago, lol) but yet he can write 'scripts for narcs.

 

It's totally unfair and silly but what can you do? Just shut up and take it, I guess. I'm hoping his attending is as understanding as he is. I am the only med. mj. patient he has (that he knows of)...

 

 

Oh well, I have another 28 days to get me cert. in again before I am really left with my butt hanging in the wind. If worse comes to worse I'll just have to pony up the cash for one of the clinics to renew me. It still sucks that it took 2 months & my emails for them to let me know I was denied for this stupid reason...

 

I love these new smileys, hehehe

[tamara101972]

This was supposed to be a reply to JohnB RPh, I'm not used to this format, been gone from the site for a while.)

 

 

I somewhat disagree with the information provided in your link.

 

I have no idea how the "MD Pecking order" goes except it's fellows on the bottom, then residents, then attendings, as to who has what rights and privledges I have no idea but apparently the state does not feel fellows and residents are fully licensed. As for the link, it was the 1st that poped up that explained any of this to me so I can't attest to it's truthfullness or the info. contained in it but as for the state...I have been "denied" for that reason and it blows the big one.

 

It seriously blows....I'm finally getting my cure perfected and now I am going to be paranoid about this until I get my card. I can't shut down, I have a perp. harvest going....grrrr....

[DLD420]

found this link that explains things, turns out residents are NOT "Fully licensed" Dr.s!

 

http://patients.about.com/b/2008/08/04/exhausted-junior-doctors-may-be-caring-for-you.htm

 

I wrote him and asked him to have his attending fill out the form, keep your fingers crossed for me. Maybe this will help someone else not make the same mistake

Judging from the comment section in this article, at least 2 Dr's disagree with the author of the article. Im not an MD so I wouldn't know for sure.

[JohnB RPh]

Tamara, I just want to make it clear I definitely wasn't trying to disrespect you, I just didn't want you to be mislead by potentially faulty information. I haven't worked in hospitals for years myself, so I could be completely wrong. I just remember a third year resident carried alot of weight, just below the Chief Resident.

 

I also can't help myself, I have to point out that in fact a fellow is the highest of the pecking order, as he/she has already completed their residency. Definitly the top of the food chain and heading for the biggest bucks or teaching position.

 

Good luck!

[tamara101972]

Tamara, I just want to make it clear I definitely wasn't trying to disrespect you, I just didn't want you to be mislead by potentially faulty information. I haven't worked in hospitals for years myself, so I could be completely wrong. I just remember a third year resident carried alot of weight, just below the Chief Resident.

 

I also can't help myself, I have to point out that in fact a fellow is the highest of the pecking order, as he/she has already completed their residency. Definitly the top of the food chain and heading for the biggest bucks or teaching position.

 

Good luck!

 

 

I didn't take anything anyone has said here as being disrespectful. I really don't know (or really care, to be honest), about the MD pecking order, lol all I care about is that now I have to go through getting a certification all over again. It wasn't easy to talk to my Dr. about it, I was so thrilled when he agreed to sign and now I have to go through that all over again with his attending who may not see things as progressively as my Dr. does. I can't wait until he's through school so he can sign my future certs.

 

I certainly don't blame him, I didn't know the state wouldn't see him as being qualified to attest to my med. condition yet allows for him to write narc 'scripts...totally silly if you ask me. I just hope I don't have to end up spending another $100+ to go to one of the clinics.

[Guest CaveatLector]

So we are resorting to links to about.com to decide whether a resident can make the rec?

Come on people, get it together. You rely on the law and insist that having paperwork should prevent cops from seizing your meds but you don't even look to the law to decide this issue? Look at the law, it's pretty clear and simple. Look at the definition of physician under the law. A physician, as used in the law, is:

 

(f) "Physician" means an individual licensed as a physician under Part 170 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17001 to 333.17084, or an osteopathic physician under Part 175 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17501 to 333.17556.

 

A resident is not licensed as a physician in the manner described in (f) above. Therefore, under the law, a resident cannot make the rec. Whether a resident can perform surgery or prescribe narcotics isn't the standard used in the law. The standard is (f). Therefore, a resident cannot make the rec. The issue isn't whether they have the initials MD or DO after their names it is whether they hold a particular license. A med school student who graduates can be called an MD or DO the day after graduation but they aren't licensed as required by the law yet.

[tamara101972]

So we are resorting to links to about.com to decide whether a resident can make the rec?

Come on people, get it together. You rely on the law and insist that having paperwork should prevent cops from seizing your meds but you don't even look to the law to decide this issue? Look at the law, it's pretty clear and simple. Look at the definition of physician under the law. A physician, as used in the law, is:

 

(f) "Physician" means an individual licensed as a physician under Part 170 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17001 to 333.17084, or an osteopathic physician under Part 175 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17501 to 333.17556.

 

A resident is not licensed as a physician in the manner described in (f) above. Therefore, under the law, a resident cannot make the rec. Whether a resident can perform surgery or prescribe narcotics isn't the standard used in the law. The standard is (f). Therefore, a resident cannot make the rec. The issue isn't whether they have the initials MD or DO after their names it is whether they hold a particular license. A med school student who graduates can be called an MD or DO the day after graduation but they aren't licensed as required by the law yet.

 

The confusion wasn't with a lack of knowledge about what the law says or what defines a licensed MD, it was regarding not knowing WHEN a Dr. is fully licensed. I thought residents were fully licensed, under the definition of the law. I'm glad, for you, that you already knew this important piece of information.

[Guest CaveatLector]

The confusion wasn't with a lack of knowledge about what the law says or what defines a licensed MD, it was regarding not knowing WHEN a Dr. is fully licensed. I thought residents were fully licensed, under the definition of the law. I'm glad, for you, that you already knew this important piece of information.

 

Well that's the thing, I DIDN'T know it already. I read the law and THEN I knew it. And no offense but knowing WHEN a Dr. is fully licensed is answered BY the law, ergo lack of knowledge of the law was the problem. Reading my first post will send you to subsection f of the particular section of the MMA which, in turn, sends you to another part of Michigan law governing licensing. It's a roadmap that is relatively easy to follow.

 

And before you get up in arms, I'm not trying to start a flame war I'm simply showing how, if people read the law, this is a relativley easy issue to subdue. Furthermore, I just don't understand why people complain about the cops not knowing the law or MDCH not following the law but then they themselves don't even look TO THE LAW to figure out a problem. I find it odd that this website provides a link to the law and yet people use conjecture, opinion, or a wise statement made by their half brother's mother's best friend's beautician's dog groomer's neighbor's great-grandpappy to figure something out. -------------And that's just a joke so don't take offense. Lighten up, it's almost the 4th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Bottom line is now we all know. Because, like I said, I didn't know either!

[JohnB RPh]

So we are resorting to links to about.com to decide whether a resident can make the rec?Come on people, get it together. You rely on the law and insist that having paperwork should prevent cops from seizing your meds but you don't even look to the law to decide this issue? Look at the law, it's pretty clear and simple.

 

Look at the definition of physician under the law. A physician, as used in the law, is:(f) "Physician" means an individual licensed as a physician under Part 170 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17001 to 333.17084, or an osteopathic physician under Part 175 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17501 to 333.17556.

 

A resident is not licensed as a physician in the manner described in (f) above. Therefore, under the law, a resident cannot make the rec. Whether a resident can perform surgery or prescribe narcotics isn't the standard used in the law. The standard is (f). Therefore, a resident cannot make the rec. The issue isn't whether they have the initials MD or DO after their names it is whether they hold a particular license. A med school student who graduates can be called an MD or DO the day after graduation but they aren't licensed as required by the law yet.

 

Excellent post full of common sense, and thank you. And I would like to look at the definition of a physician under the law so I can determine what a physcian, as used in the law, exactly is.

 

I'm embarassed to admit, however, that even after reading Part 170 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17001 to 333.17084 several times, I'm still having trouble determining what, exactly, a qualifying physician as defined by (f) is.