State Issued Malice

[peanutbutter]

We all know that the MDCH opens every envelope that contains a medical marijuana license application within a couple of days from the time they receive them.

 

They cash the checks.

 

They claim that they review every application for errors within the first fifteen days, as required by law. If the date they cash the checks is any indicator, they review these applications within the first day or two.

 

They used to blame the printer in the office for taking months to issue the ID card itself.

 

They aren't even bothering to do that now. They just say they simply aren't complying with the law.

 

So why the delay? There is the possibility that they delay entirely for the purpose of exposing patients, caregivers and doctors to false arrest.

 

There needs to be an in depth investigation into these delays. We need reporters and congressmen to go into their offices and record exactly what they do that is taking so long.

[Guest Happy Guy]

No doubt! That is the biggest problem to date for patients. The renewals are getting later every month too. The whole situation is terrible. I got my renewal on time, 4/20 patient, but my close friends aren't getting theirs on time. They say our paperwork is good in 20 days but a friend of mine got his denial letter 3 months after he sent in the application. It was back dated to 15 days from receipt of the application.

[peanutbutter]

Congress gave them until September 15th this year to get caught up.

 

They failed to follow the order of congress.

 

Yes HG .. I have no doubt that they miss one or two. Then they do a CYA with the back dating thing. But that is the exception, not the rule.

 

By law they can't do that. By law they must issue the card within the fifteen days also.

 

They are breaking the law all over the place. Even ignoring the direct order of congress.

[Guest Happy Guy]

You think it's only one or two they miss? Out of tens of thousands? I disagree. I doubt they look at all the information on any of the applications in 15 days. They grab the check and look at them in the order they were received. Since we get our cards in over 100 days now, they probably are checking them out a couple months after they receive them. That makes the most sense with the time line of the events that are taking place.

[peanutbutter]

You think it's only one or two they miss? Out of tens of thousands? I disagree. I doubt they look at all the information on any of the applications in 15 days. They grab the check and look at them in the order they were received. Since we get our cards in over 100 days now, they probably are checking them out a couple months after they receive them. That makes the most sense with the time line of the events that are taking place.

 

There may be two stages of examination.

 

Every denial letter that I've seen has been received within that state mandated 20 days. So they look to see if all the forms are there in the first round.

 

There may be a deeper examination that takes place. MAY be.

 

There are mistakes made at the MDCH. The first caregiver card issued to my wife had the wrong patient names and address on it. One line up or down in the Excel file. Bad data entry.

 

It sounds like the first person working on your friends application missed something that was later discovered.

 

Sounds like humans to me..

 

But back dating like they do is probably a violation of law.

[Guest Happy Guy]

There may be two stages of examination.

 

Every denial letter that I've seen has been received within that state mandated 20 days. So they look to see if all the forms are there in the first round.

 

There may be a deeper examination that takes place. MAY be.

 

There are mistakes made at the MDCH. The first caregiver card issued to my wife had the wrong patient names and address on it. One line up or down in the Excel file. Bad data entry.

 

It sounds like the first person working on your friends application missed something that was later discovered.

 

Sounds like humans to me..

 

But back dating like they do is probably a violation of law.

They DEFINITELY back date our cards too. It's what they like to do. That way they do not go to jail for lying to congress.

It doesn't matter how many times they look at the forms. It's the last check that is the important one. All the other checks depend on the last one.

[peanutbutter]

Have we gotten past your claim that every single denial letter is issued past the fifteen days?

[Guest Happy Guy]

Have we gotten past your claim that every single denial letter is issued past the fifteen days?

I still believe that they grab the check and look at the forms in the order they were received. It's the only thing that makes sense. They do not thoroughly look at the forms in the 15 days. That means that ALL the denials are late and back dated unless it's something so obvious the check casher person sees it. I have proof that it happens. I don't have proof it happens every time. It would be impossible to have that proof unless I was MDCH. It's just what makes sense. I can believe that some patients do get their denial in the 15 days. I know that some do not.

[DenturesLost]

Congress gave them until September 15th this year to get caught up.

 

They failed to follow the order of congress.

 

Yes HG .. I have no doubt that they miss one or two. Then they do a CYA with the back dating thing. But that is the exception, not the rule.

 

By law they can't do that. By law they must issue the card within the fifteen days also.

 

They are breaking the law all over the place. Even ignoring the direct order of congress.

Our state house/senate doesn't have the power to order the MDCH, an executive agency, to do anything. They can pass a law but they cannot issue orders. Separation of powers...

[peanutbutter]

Our state house/senate doesn't have the power to order the MDCH, an executive agency, to do anything. They can pass a law but they cannot issue orders. Separation of powers...

 

Who has the authority to investigate a conspiracy to commit mass false arrest?

[DenturesLost]

Who has the authority to investigate a conspiracy to commit mass false arrest?

I don't think there is such a crime as "mass false arrest." As far as conspiracy, I suppose you would need evidence of a conspiracy to commit a crime before it would be investigated.

[peanutbutter]

I don't think there is such a crime as "mass false arrest." As far as conspiracy, I suppose you would need evidence of a conspiracy to commit a crime before it would be investigated.

 

Usually evidence is obtained by an investigation.

 

Before the system gets to that point, the test of reasonable suspicion is applied. Correct?

[peanutbutter]

There are two things that are very clear:

 

1. The MDCH is breaking the law about the 15 day rule.

2. Persons have suffered as a result.

[DenturesLost]

What is your evidence of reasonable suspicion of a conspiracy?

[Guest Happy Guy]

You would need an insider to talk to prove your conspiracy theory. The graph of the time it takes to get our cards fits with the graph of the number of apps submitted. Same with renewals. The simple answer is incompetency.

[peanutbutter]

You would need an insider to talk to prove your conspiracy theory. The graph of the time it takes to get our cards fits with the graph of the number of apps submitted. Same with renewals. The simple answer is incompetency.

 

hehe .. we're not criminals .. we're just incompetent!

[Guest Happy Guy]

hehe .. we're not criminals .. we're just incompetent!

you have to add....... and we lie to congress to cover it which makes us criminals.

[peanutbutter]

I don't think there is such a crime as "mass false arrest." As far as conspiracy, I suppose you would need evidence of a conspiracy to commit a crime before it would be investigated.

 

What I showed before congress was the memo from the state police that said patients without their ID card were subject to arrest.

 

At the same time, the MDCH rep testified that they were in violation of the law for every single ID card issued.

 

"They" break the law which results in "us" being arrested.

 

Every single congressman there understood. Every single one of them was upset. Every single one of them there voted to take corrective action.

 

It is not the job of government to cause law abiding citizens to become criminals by way of the government breaking the law.

[peanutbutter]

you have to add....... and we lie to congress to cover it which makes us criminals.

 

They try to claim incompetence. I believe it is intentional.

 

They have had two years to get it right. They have had to answer to congress. They've hired additional persons to become compliant with the law. They've had budget increases to become compliant.

 

Malice is about the only thing left.

[Mememe]

I think its on purpose as well and am suspicious... Will be carefully watching.

[Retta]

There are two things that are very clear:

 

1. The MDCH is breaking the law about the 15 day rule.

2. Persons have suffered as a result.

 

Did you not use mm until you received your card? I didn't suffer. My senator friend said there are only two people in that office and they are working as fast as they can.

[DenturesLost]

First, let's stop calling it congress. Congress convenes in Washington, D.C. What you are referring to is our state house or state senate.

 

Second, for there to be a conspiracy you would have to provide evidence that the MDCH is deliberately not issuing in time as a way to force the arrest of pts. That isn't going to happen. Why? Because the non-issuance of the cards is not the proximate or the but-for cause of the arrests. The law specifically has a back-up plan in case cards are not issued on time. The fact that the police are not accepting paperwork as a card is not the fault of the MDCH. It has nothing to do with the MDCH. Therefore, if an arrest is occuring when a pt has paperwork that is on the local PD and not the MDCH. To suggest that there is a conspiracy is to suggest that the MDCH has sat down in a smoke-filled, dimly lighted room with every local PD in the state and said, "okay guys here's the plan--we won't issue the cards on time and then YOU go ahead and arrest people (insert evil villian laugh of your choice)."

 

The fact is that the MDCH is not complying with the law. However, that is not what is causing the arrests. The arrests are a product of ill-informed local PDs. Are they both at fault for not complying with the law? Probably. Is there a conspiracy to arrest people? I've not seen evidence of that.

 

Shouting conspiracy theories when there is no evidence that a conspiracy exists is what will make the non-mmj community think we are all a bunch of crazy potheads. How about we DON'T do that and how about we stick to the facts of what we DO know. The MDCH is not complying with the law. Many police probably are not either. The end--until you can show REASONABLE evidence of a conspiracy.

[Guest Happy Guy]

How much right does a local cop have to check out paperwork? Is he to assume that it is all legit because it says medical marijuana on it? This is a serious question. Is it the job of the local cop to make sure it's not forged? Yes or no.

[DenturesLost]

How much right does a local cop have to check out paperwork? Is he to assume that it is all legit because it says medical marijuana on it? This is a serious question. Is it the job of the local cop to make sure it's not forged? Yes or no.

Let's work backwards from arrest, that would be easier.

To arrest on a misdemeanor a cop needs to have probable cause. Generally the misdemeanor has to be committed in the cop's presence. The question becomes whether PC exists if you have a gram on you and you have paperwork. Generally carrying a gram will be probable cause for arrest. The existence of paperwork is something the cop needs to consider though. Does the paperwork look legit? Does it look forged? Is there a reason to question the paperwork beyond the single fact that it is paperwork and not a plastic card? If there is no reason to question it then in my view the cop cannot arrest. Does that mean tons of people could get by with forged paperwork? Yes. But that's the quandry the law puts us in when it allows paperwork as a stand-in for a card when the card is not issued on time. That means guilty people could get away. But that's tough crap. Guilty people can get away when a cop doesn't have the PC to search a car trunk too. Guilty people can get away when a cop cannot establish PC for a search warrant of a home. That is something our society has decided is okay in the balance of rights. Guilty people WILL get away so that we can have our protections against unreasonable searches. That's life in the good old USA. Similarly, guilty people will get away when a cop accepts paperwork as a stand-in for a card. Oh well.

 

The big problem is that the cops see that as a problem. "Well we can't confirm paperwork so guilty people will get away!" Yes, no kidding. Do you ever hear a cop complain that they cannot establish PC for a search so guilty people will get away? No because they have come to accept that they need PC for a search. They need to accept that they have to accept paperwork.

[Broken]

It's a complete insult to the people of this state. each person who registers has to pay 100 dollars (unless they qualify for medicare) Where the hell is all of that money going? if a thousand people a week registers that's 100,000 dollars. GET A NEW PRINTER.