Cg To Cg And Patients Other Than "yours"

[lawyercaregiver]

OK I am nicely medicated on the latest BMK and hope we can brainstorm with some other legal eagles out there.

 

I don't want a discussion on the legality of CG to CG transfers or CG transfers to other than your registered patient- I assume this is NOT allowed on the face of the MMM.

 

HOWEVER, there has GOT to be a way around this problem.

 

If the law allows transfers in some circumstances and not others then it may be possible to create a legal fiction which effectuates the intent of the parties in a lawful manner.

 

For example, why can't a dispensary keep a "provisional list" of registered patients? That is, you go into the dispensary and fill out the paperwork to have the dispensary named as your CG. The paperwork is then held and, in the event of a raid there is a pretty good defense IMHO.

 

Legally the dispensary is broken into different d/b/a's: That is you file a d/b/a as XYZ Dispensary 1 and give the paperwork for XYS Dispensary 1 to the first 5 incoming patients and CG traffic. For the next 5 you already have the paperwork for "XYZdispensary 2" ready to go and so on.

 

This could also work with coops and such.

 

Note this is just my opinion. I am not sure this would work. The courts have not ruled on this issue and anybody who tells you confidently what is going to happen doesn't have a clue. However, I AM sure the MMM was intended to permit patients to have access to medicine. There ARE cases where access is very difficult and could take months for patients without access to coops or dispensaries. So it is not uncommon for courts to play along with these "legal fictions" especially where the legal fiction helps effectuate the intent of the legislature (in this case the people of Michigan) who wrote the law.

[GreatLakesMeds]

Doesn't the MMMA say a CG has to be a "person?" So naming a dispensary as your CG wouldn't work; certainly the MDCH would reject any such application or change form. I don't understand the benefit of filling out paperwork knowing it would never be sent in but I can see it making a didference to a jury.

 

It seems that the coop sort of exchange is catching on - patients/CGs meet in a safe and common area and trade cannabis, money, etc. I believe this is the correct model. There is a strong legal arguement that transfers to card holder are legal - that perhaps the action is an arrestable offense but that the parties would generally be able to avoid a guilty verdict of they prove the transfer was made for a patient's medical use. If we get a friendly AG who is willing to support transfers between cardholders, then these cannabis flea markets will spread like wildfire.

 

And from that model, you can see more of a dispensary style emergining - in which patients and CGs consign meds to a budtender of sorts, who then dispenses to patients who come in...kinda like those indoor antique malls with many booths and one cashier who collects for all of the vendors.

[peanutbutter]

I don't want a discussion on the legality of CG to CG transfers or CG transfers to other than your registered patient- I assume this is NOT allowed on the face of the MMM.

 

That is the basis of your question. And you basis is in error.

 

No need for my input. In fact you have screened out my discussion.

 

So .. good luck with this.

[+itssortalegal10]

OK I am nicely medicated on the latest BMK and hope we can brainstorm with some other legal eagles out there.

 

I don't want a discussion on the legality of CG to CG transfers or CG transfers to other than your registered patient- I assume this is NOT allowed on the face of the MMM.

 

HOWEVER, there has GOT to be a way around this problem.

 

If the law allows transfers in some circumstances and not others then it may be possible to create a legal fiction which effectuates the intent of the parties in a lawful manner.

 

For example, why can't a dispensary keep a "provisional list" of registered patients? That is, you go into the dispensary and fill out the paperwork to have the dispensary named as your CG. The paperwork is then held and, in the event of a raid there is a pretty good defense IMHO.

 

Legally the dispensary is broken into different d/b/a's: That is you file a d/b/a as XYZ Dispensary 1 and give the paperwork for XYS Dispensary 1 to the first 5 incoming patients and CG traffic. For the next 5 you already have the paperwork for "XYZdispensary 2" ready to go and so on.

 

This could also work with coops and such.

 

Note this is just my opinion. I am not sure this would work. The courts have not ruled on this issue and anybody who tells you confidently what is going to happen doesn't have a clue. However, I AM sure the MMM was intended to permit patients to have access to medicine. There ARE cases where access is very difficult and could take months for patients without access to coops or dispensaries. So it is not uncommon for courts to play along with these "legal fictions" especially where the legal fiction helps effectuate the intent of the legislature (in this case the people of Michigan) who wrote the law.

Well as caregivers if we have an actual patient who is in our care we need to follow HIPPA guidelines which means the "provisional list" would probably violate that law..If anyone but the patients caregiver was to see this list I have a feeling they could get you on that somehow and that that would be one more way for the law to screw a dispensary other than the ones they a;ready have. Not to mention the dispensary being claimed by the patient would mean they would probably look at that dispensary as the cg which means that if they allowed that to happen and decided to allow patients to name the dispensary as their cg they would only be allowed 12 patients for that whole dispensary..Did that make sense? What they are doing now should be just fine..A collective of PT and CG using thier plant counts as a whole to cover who comes through the door and just consider it a transfer..lol

 

Just face the fact that until people chill out with this law a bit and become educated dispensaries and caregivers are going to be messed with by the law..Patients are even messed with lately and that is what we need to worry about the most, when they start messing with patients directly they are blatantly telling those who voted this law into effect that NO MATTER WHAT they think this is evil and don't care what we think!!

[lawyercaregiver]

That is the basis of your question. And you basis is in error.

 

No need for my input. In fact you have screened out my discussion.

 

So .. good luck with this.

 

 

Key words here are "on the face." That is, the plain meaning of the law does not allow coops but this does not preclude legal machinations that would allow the practice in some circumstances.

 

Plenty of threads deal with is it legal or is it not. I want this to focus on assuming it is not allowed in the plain meaning of the law but there could be a convoluted legal structure that could make doable what is otherwise impermissible.

 

Let me give an example: It is illegal to accept a kickback from another person for delivering a customer (bet most of you did not know that!) BUT if the person you are giving the kickback to is your employee it is called a commission and this makes it perfectly legal. It is a bit more complicated than that but not much!

[lawyercaregiver]

Thanks for the cogent thoughts itssortoflegal! Don't know the HIPPA medical records crap beyond what you sign at the docs. Employees at the doctor's offices pharmacists etc all have access to the HIPAA medical privacy information just as employees at a "legal" dispensary would so I am not sure if there is a problem. I am also not aware of criminal penalties in HIPPA but there probably are come to think of it- what federal law would be complete without feeding the federal prisons?

 

Greatlakes- I think the consignment shop idea has legs. You have a group of say 20 CG's at 5 patient's per. They bring in the product to a shop and make it all fungible (i.e. mix product from the several CG's behind the sales counter and offer- for example- Bubblegum from one CG, and Strawberry from another)and you have a legal consignment shop for your 100 patients? Hmmmmm. It might depend on the rules of consignment and whether it constitutes a sale??? And would this model also allow combining grow operations?

 

The more I study, the more I think this darn law can be interpreted 3 ways from Sunday and I have no idea what the courts will do with it. It is clear SOMEBODY is going to have to roll the dice on some of this craziness so we can get some clarity. Thanks very much for that btw!

[+420Atheist]

I don't think the plan would violate HIPAA. I'm not 100% sure HIPAA applies to caregivers but I think it is likely it does. I work in IT and have been though many HIPAA audits. The key is to keep the information on a need to know basis. So you can't give access to just anyone. Only those who would need it. Since the patients are signing the forms they know they exist so they can't come back on you unless you did not take the reasonable care with those records. But HIPAA is 100 times worse than our law when it comes to interpretation. They are guidelines and not hard rules. Doctors have been whining about this for a long time. Some have interpreted it very loosely and some have locked things down Like fort Knox. My advice would be to scan the documents and shred the originals. Use Truecrypt to encrypt the folder the documents are in and only you know the complex password. This not only protects you from HIPAA but also protects your patients from LEO. They can't bust Truecrypt and there is a way to configure it with plausible deniability so they can't even force the password out of you.

 

As for the bigger question I don't think a corporation can be a caregiver only an individual.

[dlovas]

OK I am nicely medicated on the latest BMK and hope we can brainstorm with some other legal eagles out there.

 

I don't want a discussion on the legality of CG to CG transfers or CG transfers to other than your registered patient- I assume this is NOT allowed on the face of the MMM.

 

HOWEVER, there has GOT to be a way around this problem.

 

If the law allows transfers in some circumstances and not others then it may be possible to create a legal fiction which effectuates the intent of the parties in a lawful manner.

 

For example, why can't a dispensary keep a "provisional list" of registered patients? That is, you go into the dispensary and fill out the paperwork to have the dispensary named as your CG. The paperwork is then held and, in the event of a raid there is a pretty good defense IMHO.

 

Legally the dispensary is broken into different d/b/a's: That is you file a d/b/a as XYZ Dispensary 1 and give the paperwork for XYS Dispensary 1 to the first 5 incoming patients and CG traffic. For the next 5 you already have the paperwork for "XYZdispensary 2" ready to go and so on.

 

This could also work with coops and such.

 

Note this is just my opinion. I am not sure this would work. The courts have not ruled on this issue and anybody who tells you confidently what is going to happen doesn't have a clue. However, I AM sure the MMM was intended to permit patients to have access to medicine. There ARE cases where access is very difficult and could take months for patients without access to coops or dispensaries. So it is not uncommon for courts to play along with these "legal fictions" especially where the legal fiction helps effectuate the intent of the legislature (in this case the people of Michigan) who wrote the law.

Apparently it does not even matter what is written in the law because the POLICE are violating the law and reading it as they feel and wish and are acting as criminals as well. So does this really matter trying to circumvent the law or go into limbo because they are going to do what they want if they want to raid something and steal your cash and property they will do it...that is until they KILL another person and get slapped with a 10 Million dollar lawsuit. So the COPS are gonna rape and pillage until somebody stands up. Me personally I am tired of trying to fight. It seems the majority of the people on this site are OK now tha they got legal and just sit back and get HIGh all day. Only a few really donate time and money..the rest just sit back and type posts and just talk a great game.<<<<<!!

 

Going to try and retire from this site for awhile until my mood perks up.