Secrete Crimes Or We'll Tell You Later Why

[DenturesLost]

The claim that set me off was something like "The Michigan Medical Marihuana Act makes dispensaries illegal."

 

If the MMMA makes dispensaries illegal, then why haven't any defendants in these cases been charged with THAT crime?

Again, you are playing a semantics game. Does Michigan law make brothels illegal? No, not specifically. So one could argue, if they were trying to be cute, that brothels are legal in Michigan.

 

If a brothel were operating in Michigan would it be illegal? Yes. Not because the word brothel is illegal and not because every activity in the brothel is illegal, but because what we normally understand to generally occur in a brothel is activity that is illegal. Does that mean if someone brushes their teeth in a brothel then THAT is illegal? Of course not. If someone goes to a brothel and just gets a massage is that legal? Well, yes, as long as it is a massage and not a "massage."

 

What if I had 5 pts and I opened a "dispensary" to serve just those 5? Would that be illegal? No.

 

I don't believe anyone is claiming that a dispensary couldn't be legal. What they are claiming is that the ACTIVITY that GENERALLY occurs in the dispensary is illegal. I cannot tell if you are playing dumb just to give people a hard time or if you really don't get it...

[peanutbutter]

Again, you are playing a semantics game. Does Michigan law make brothels illegal? No, not specifically. So one could argue, if they were trying to be cute, that brothels are legal in Michigan.

 

If a brothel were operating in Michigan would it be illegal? Yes. Not because the word brothel is illegal and not because every activity in the brothel is illegal. But because what we normally understand to generally occur in a brothel is activity that is illegal. Does that mean if someone brushes their teeth in a brothel then THAT is illegal? Of course not. If someone goes to a brothel and just gets a massage is that legal? Well, yes, as long as it is a massage and not a "massage."

 

What if I had 5 pts and I opened a "dispensary" to serve just those 5? Would that be illegal? No.

 

I don't believe anyone is claiming that a dispensary couldn't be legal. What they are claiming is that the ACTIVITY that GENERALLY occurs in the dispensary is illegal. I cannot tell if you are playing dumb just to give people a hard time or if you really don't get it...

 

I would agree that the idea that dispensaries were MADE illegal in the MMMA is stupid.

 

You are correct in that it is the actions that might take place within the dispensary could be illegal. The dispensary itself is not automatically illegal.

[DenturesLost]

I would agree that the idea that dispensaries were MADE illegal in the MMMA is stupid.

 

You are correct in that it is the actions that might take place within the dispensary could be illegal. The dispensary itself is not automatically illegal.

If I open a storefront and put up a sign with the words "Marijuana Dispensary" on it is that illegal? Uh, no. I don't think anyone is claiming it is illegal. So, I've got my dispensary and everything's groovy and legal.

 

I could also open a storefront and the sign could read "Murder Shack." That isn't illegal either. Murder shacks aren't illegal in Michigan are they?If they are then show me in the law where it specifically states that murder shacks are illegal.

[peanutbutter]

If I open a storefront and put up a sign with the words "Marijuana Dispensary" on it is that illegal? Uh, no. I don't think anyone is claiming it is illegal. So, I've got my dispensary and everything's groovy and legal.

 

Uh, yes .. there have been plenty of people that have tried to make that stupid claim.

[DenturesLost]

Uh, yes .. there have been plenty of people that have tried to make that stupid claim.

Are you going to make the stupid claim that a murder dispensary is illegal?

 

I mean come on, this is basic stuff. Under your line of reasoning speeding is perfectly legal too. I mean speeding, in and of itself, doesn't mean going over the speed limit does it? So if someone tells you a cop gave them a ticket for speeding you should suggest to them that the cop was all wrong because speeding isn't illegal. Afterall, no where in Michigan law can you find the sentence, "Speeding is illegal." If you can then, please, for the love of guava, cite me the MCL number and section.

[peanutbutter]

The dispensary itself is not illegal.

 

It is possible that someone within the dispensary could do something illegal. That action would then be a crime.

 

For instance, the bud tender could take some of the inventory and sell it to his unlicensed buddy in the parking lot.

 

That could be fixed if the buddy has a medical condition and gets his doctors letter before going into court.

 

Clearly not a good way to do business. Costly if the buddy is a UC.

[+RevThad]

So are we playing semantics games now or are we arguing constructively?

The law doesn't need the word dispensary in it to outlaw the activity engaged in by a dispensary.

 

I would throw a similar challenge to you--to find a Michigan law that outlaws brothels. I don't think you can. Does that mean brothels are legal?

Ha Ha Ha

 

Really PB....either you understand where people are coming from when they assert dispensaries are illegal and you are just trying to be cute with your position that they must be legal since the law doesn't specifically outlaw a "dispensary," or somehow you really do believe that the word dispensary must be contained in a law for a dispensary to be illegal. If it's the latter then there is no point debating it with you anymore.

 

750.452: House of ill-fame; keeping, maintaining or operating

Any person who shall keep, maintain or operate, or aid and abet in keeping, maintaining or operating a house of ill-fame, bawdy house or any house or place resorted to for the purpose of prostitution or lewdness shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine of not more than 2,500 dollars.

 

The only way one can get to the point that dispensaries are illegal, is by the activities occurring in them to be illegal.

 

MCL 333.7405 Prohibited conduct generally; violation; penalties.

 

(1) A person:

 

(d) Shall not knowingly keep or maintain a store, shop, warehouse, dwelling, building, vehicle, boat, aircraft, or other structure or place, that is frequented by persons using controlled substances in violation of this article for the purpose of using controlled substances, or that is used for keeping or selling controlled substances in violation of this article.

 

One can easily look up the exceptions to that article as there are at least 2 in the previous 2 sections, and then add on top of it the conduct allowed under the MMMAct...

 

I am not aware of any exceptions to the prostitution laws...

 

Again your comparison is apples and oranges.

[DenturesLost]

750.452: House of ill-fame; keeping, maintaining or operating

Any person who shall keep, maintain or operate, or aid and abet in keeping, maintaining or operating a house of ill-fame, bawdy house or any house or place resorted to for the purpose of prostitution or lewdness shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine of not more than 2,500 dollars.

 

The only way one can get to the point that dispensaries are illegal, is by the activities occurring in them to be illegal.

 

 

 

One can easily look up the exceptions to that article as there are at least 2 in the previous 2 sections, and then add on top of it the conduct allowed under the MMMAct...

 

I am not aware of any exceptions to the prostitution laws...

 

Again your comparison is apples and oranges.

I don't see the word "brothel" in there so it must mean brothels are legal.

[peanutbutter]

750.452: House of ill-fame; keeping, maintaining or operating

Any person who shall keep, maintain or operate, or aid and abet in keeping, maintaining or operating a house of ill-fame, bawdy house or any house or place resorted to for the purpose of prostitution or lewdness shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine of not more than 2,500 dollars.

 

The only way one can get to the point that dispensaries are illegal, is by the activities occurring in them to be illegal.

 

MCL 333.7405 Prohibited conduct generally; violation; penalties.

 

(1) A person:

 

(d) Shall not knowingly keep or maintain a store, shop, warehouse, dwelling, building, vehicle, boat, aircraft, or other structure or place, that is frequented by persons using controlled substances in violation of this article for the purpose of using controlled substances, or that is used for keeping or selling controlled substances in violation of this article.

 

One can easily look up the exceptions to that article as there are at least 2 in the previous 2 sections, and then add on top of it the conduct allowed under the MMMAct...

 

I am not aware of any exceptions to the prostitution laws...

 

Again your comparison is apples and oranges.

 

With only the section quoted about drug houses, the corner CVS would be illegal. Clearly there are exceptions.

 

So why doesn't the CVS get closed down? Because the activities inside the CVS are legal.

[+RevThad]

I don't see the word "brothel" in there so it must mean brothels are legal.

I quoted both pertinent laws, and actually one will notice that the very first of the definitions of "bawdy house" is brothel, and the same is true of the other term "house of ill-fame".

 

Playing the games with me because you are upset with somebody else is a useless debate tactic. You laid out a challenge, it was met. Now please include any exceptions to the prostitution laws of our state. As we have discussed numerous times the exceptions to the marijuana laws in the state.

 

[DenturesLost]

Again your comparison is apples and oranges.

My comparison is spot-on. Yours is apples to oranges.

PB is/was arguing that a dispensary is legal because it isn't specifically outlawed. My comparison draws an analogy between the terms dispensary and brothel. Brothel isn't specifically outlawed either and using PB's argument format I can open a storefront and call it the "Big Box Brothel Store" and I cannot be shut down.

 

Your argument is that a brothel is illegal because a house of ill-repute is illegal. That's fine if we are examining the underlying behavior and NOT just the name of the establishment. That's the point here. A brothel is illegal if we are examing the underlying behavior because you can point to a statute that makes that behavior illegal.

 

A dispensary is illegal if we are examining the underlying behavior because we can similarly point to a statute that makes it illegal. Namely the CSA. Whether the MMA is an exception to this depends on the underlying behavior and turns on your definition of dispensary. THAT is the point. PB argues that because a dispensary is not outlawed by name then it must be legal. The fact is the actions in a dispensary are outlawed and thus a dispensary is outlawed. PB is playing semantic games. Are there instances where a dispensary could be legal depending on how you define dispensary? Yes. However, while some of those exceptions are clear, others are not black and white under the MMA. So to broadly declare that a dispensary is legal is to play a word game. In fact, even using the word dispensary is useless to this discussion without first clearly defining it. What is a dispensary? A place where registered cgs serve their registered pts? A place where a cg transfers to an unreg pt or a reg pt? A place where a pt transfers to a pt or cg? A place where people sit and smoke? Define dispensary before you are going to argue that it is legal.

[peanutbutter]

The fact is the actions in a dispensary are outlawed and thus a dispensary is outlawed.

 

There we go ..

 

Now we are at the center of the issue.

 

Please .. prove your claim.

[DenturesLost]

I quoted both pertinent laws, and actually one will notice that the very first of the definitions of "bawdy house" is brothel, and the same is true of the other term "house of ill-fame".

 

Playing the games with me because you are upset with somebody else is a useless debate tactic. You laid out a challenge, it was met. Now please include any exceptions to the prostitution laws of our state. As we have discussed numerous times the exceptions to the marijuana laws in the state.

 

Look up! The point just flew over your head!

 

First, I'm not debating YOU. You interjected into a debate I was having with PB.

 

I'm not playing the word game. I AGREE that a brothel IS a house of ill-repute, etc. The point is the analogy here. Taking a word--dispensary--and applying whatever definition you want to make it fit your current need. If I take the word brothel and name a barber shop by that name it isn't illegal, is it? The point is that PB is arguing that since the word dispensary isn't specifically outlawed then a dispensary is legal. MY POINT is that you have to define a word before you use it...

 

Furthermore, your argument regarding exceptions to the CSA (mj laws) is exactly the root of the problem here. The exceptions are not well-defined in some instances. So you cannot point to the MMA and tell me that there is an exception if you have to squeeze it out of the law. Basically the exception exists when the michigan sup ct tells us it exists doesn't it? What do you think the ferndale cases are about? You are trying to start with the premise that x, y, and z exceptions exist based on your interpretation of the MMA. Some exceptions clearly apply. Others, not so much...

[DenturesLost]

There we go ..

 

Now we are at the center of the issue.

 

Please .. prove your claim.

Read the CSA.

[peanutbutter]

Read the CSA.

 

So you claim that any illegal activities makes the location the activity takes place in illegal?

 

Willy Nelson smoked a joint on the roof of the White House. Does that make the White House a dispensary?

[+RevThad]

My comparison is spot-on. Yours is apples to oranges.

PB is/was arguing that a dispensary is legal because it isn't specifically outlawed. My comparison draws an analogy between the terms dispensary and brothel. Brothel isn't specifically outlawed either and using PB's argument format I can open a storefront and call it the "Big Box Brothel Store" and I cannot be shut down.

 

Your argument is that a brothel is illegal because a house of ill-repute is illegal. That's fine if we are examining the underlying behavior and NOT just the name of the establishment. That's the point here. A brothel is illegal if we are examing the underlying behavior because you can point to a statute that makes that behavior illegal.

 

A dispensary is illegal if we are examining the underlying behavior because we can similarly point to a statute that makes it illegal. Namely the CSA. Whether the MMA is an exception to this depends on the underlying behavior and turns on your definition of dispensary. THAT is the point. PB argues that because a dispensary is not outlawed by name then it must be legal. The fact is the actions in a dispensary are outlawed and thus a dispensary is outlawed. PB is playing semantic games. Are there instances where a dispensary could be legal depending on how you define dispensary? Yes. However, while some of those exceptions are clear, others are not black and white under the MMA. So to broadly declare that a dispensary is legal is to play a word game. In fact, even using the word dispensary is useless to this discussion without first clearly defining it. What is a dispensary? A place where registered cgs serve their registered pts? A place where a cg transfers to an unreg pt or a reg pt? A place where a pt transfers to a pt or cg? A place where people sit and smoke? Define dispensary before you are going to argue that it is legal.

A brothel is specifically outlawed, just as there are legal places to dispense controlled substances in our state, there are no such places that are legal for prostitution.

 

As for the state laws regarding "drug houses" there are clear exceptions to those laws, most if not all allow for the simple exception of delivering controlled substances pursuant to a prescription or doctors recommendation; as well as other exceptions. On top of those exceptions, one must then also consider the MMMAct.

 

I believe my definition of a dispensary would be a for profit storefront that dispenses medical marijuana to registered patients and caregivers, from registered patients and caregivers. I do not believe that the law would allow for the consumption (smoking, vaporizing, etc..) of medicine on the premises, except for the possible exception of topical oils and medibles. The registration (papers or card) would verify that there is a valid doctors recommendation for the use, thus qualifying the establishment for the exceptions under the various health codes, and also entitling the registered dispenser to the protections under the MMMAct. Both patients and caregivers are allowed to acquire medical marijuana for medicinal purposes, the only question seems to be who can legally supply it to those that are attempting to acquire it.

 

Pretty simple. I am not saying that the conservative viewpoint of only being able to help 5 patients is wrong, I am just saying that such an understanding ignores other portions of the law, and or makes them moot. Every time we attempt to discuss those portions of the law, you attempt to use some other extreme, such as your carjacking example.

[DenturesLost]

So you claim that any illegal activities makes the location the activity takes place in illegal?

 

Willy Nelson smoked a joint on the roof of the White House. Does that make the White House a dispensary?

Try and think outside the box. This isn't about a physical location being illegal. This isn't about smoking a joint in a building. On the one hand you state the "location" is legal. So does that mean dispensary is defined as a drab brick building and thus cannot be illegal? On the other hand you reference smoking in a building and using the activity to define dispensary.

If you are going to tell us dispensaries are legal then why not start out at square one and define dispensary for us. Otherwise the discussion is useless because you keep changing the definition. When you say dispensary you apparently are referring to the hallowed ground on which it stands? Can the soil be illegal? Well, I guess not. So, you win. The soil is legal! Can the building be illegal? No. Can the sign on the door be illegal? No.

 

If, by dispensary, you mean the activity that takes place inside then the legality depends on what the activity is that is going on.

 

Define dispensary and tell us exactly what you mean.

[+RevThad]

Look up! The point just flew over your head!

 

First, I'm not debating YOU. You interjected into a debate I was having with PB.

 

I'm not playing the word game. I AGREE that a brothel IS a house of ill-repute, etc. The point is the analogy here. Taking a word--dispensary--and applying whatever definition you want to make it fit your current need. If I take the word brothel and name a barber shop by that name it isn't illegal, is it? The point is that PB is arguing that since the word dispensary isn't specifically outlawed then a dispensary is legal. MY POINT is that you have to define a word before you use it...

 

Furthermore, your argument regarding exceptions to the CSA (mj laws) is exactly the root of the problem here. The exceptions are not well-defined in some instances. So you cannot point to the MMA and tell me that there is an exception if you have to squeeze it out of the law. Basically the exception exists when the michigan sup ct tells us it exists doesn't it? What do you think the ferndale cases are about? You are trying to start with the premise that x, y, and z exceptions exist based on your interpretation of the MMA. Some exceptions clearly apply. Others, not so much...

Actually, I don't think I referred to any exceptions to the CSA. The MMMact doesn't even attempt to protect folks from federal prosecution.

 

Again, I am not trying to squeeze anything out of any law. Simple logic tells me that if Law A makes x illegal, then there is no need for law B to also outlaw x, however if law B comes in and redefines the legality of x, one needs to follow law B when looking at x. In other words, if law A says that the sale of x is illegal, then law B is written and says the sale of x is illegal only to those not covered by law B, one is to assume that the sale of x is legal in certain instances.

 

That is exactly what has occurred in regards to marijuana. There is a very specific and limited group to which the old laws regarding the sale, cultivation, and possession of marijuana no longer apply to, and those actions that are now allowed are also limited by the new law.

[peanutbutter]

Define dispensary and tell us exactly what you mean.

 

Congratulations ..

 

That is my point.

 

There is no federal or state definition of exactly what a medical marijuana dispensary IS.

 

Some activities inside some buildings are illegal. Yes.

[Highlander]

Peanutbutter:

 

When someone says "Dispensaries are illegal." they generally mean that "The transfer of marijuana between individuals who are not connected to each other through the MDCH MMMP is illegal." They don't mean that the building that the transfer takes place in is illegal.

 

Think of this:

Me: Drinking and driving is illegal.

PB: It isn't illegal to drink, is it? It isn't illegal to drive, is it? So drinking and driving is legal.

Me: Drinking is legal and driving is legal, but drinking before driving is illegal.

PB: Not true. I can drink one beer and then hop in my Ford Festiva and drive anywhere I wish.

Me: OK, then drinking and driving is illegal if you drink so much that your blood alcohol content is above .08%.

PB: I can drink a fifth of vodka and drive my grandpappy's old Ford 150 through the woods on private property to get the dear I shot.

Me: OK, drinking while operating a motor vehicle on public roads is illegal then.

PB: Still not true. I can drink a gallon of water while driving.

Me: Alright then, drinking alcoholic beverages and then driving is illegal if you are operating a motor vehicle on a public road with a blood alcohol level over .08%

PB: Agreed, that is illegal.

 

When people say “drinking and driving is against the law” they don’t mean that drinking kool-aid while driving is illegal or any other such nonsense. There is a generally-accepted idea of what “drinking and driving” means.

 

You are playing word games with this dispensary discussion, and I’m not sure where the value of this is.

 

When Jessica Cooper says “dispensaries are illegal” she means that it is illegal for anyone to transfer marijuana unless they are connected as pt and CG through the MDCH’s registry.

 

No one is suggesting a building becomes illegal because of what is on the sign. Noone is suggesting that a building where marijuana is transferred between pts and CGs connected through the MDCH registry is illegal.

 

That is why the Oakland county defendants have not been charged with a crime “operating a dispensary.” "Dispensary" is used as a term of convenience.

 

They are charged with CSA violations because they transferred marijuana to people who they were not connected to through the MMMP registry.

 

So, sure, dispensaries are LEGAL - or not ILLEGAL. Where did that get us?

 

If someone were to be charged with "operating a dispensary" then we'd have a real discussion. But that didn't happen. People got charged will selling marijuana to someone who isn't "their" patient, and the conversational/informal way to state this is "dispensaries are illegal."

[peanutbutter]

PB: It isn't illegal to drink, is it? It isn't illegal to drive, is it? So drinking and driving is legal.

 

Not quite ..

 

As an example what you are saying is that all automobiles are illegal because some people drive drunk.

Because some people drive drunk, no automobiles are legal.

 

The activities that take place within a automobile may be illegal. That doesn't mean that every automobile is illegal.

[DenturesLost]

Not quite ..

 

As an example what you are saying is that all automobiles are illegal because some people drive drunk.

Because some people drive drunk, no automobiles are legal.

 

The activities that take place within a automobile may be illegal. That doesn't mean that every automobile is illegal.

You still aren't getting it. You are once again equivocating. You need to get a handle on the term dispensary and how it is being used in this discussion. Highlander drew a parallel between the act of drinking and driving and the act of operating a dispensary. For purposes of his analogy you need to plug in the definition of dispensary and stop viewing dispensary as an animate object. Think abstractly my man.

 

Again, define dispensary before you even have the discussion.

[Broken]

Hello everyone. Wow what a read that was... I know I'm new here, and i'm just a normal guy, definitely no legal scholar. After reading 10 pages of a lot of good and valid opinions I have a few comments to make.

 

There are obviously differences of opinions about what is legal and what is not. For good reason, when you read the law there are parts that contradict other parts. I see a part that clearly says you can only give/sell your services to your specific patient... I mean why would they even have a system that links specific people to one another if the system were meant for every caregiver or patient to be able to give to any card holder. The confusion comes when you read further and find that there are protections against prosecution for helping patients.

 

Personally, I wouldn't risk it... I know that some cases are more severe then others, in my case I would die before jeopardizing the life of my family and daughter.

 

One thing that we can all agree on is that there are some definite uncertainties right now. I know that people have a lot invested in this, really they put their heart and soul into this... Sometimes when people get so emotionally attached to a subject their view points might get distorted to what they believe should be the case. I also see a lot of people not willing to listen to the other opinions and really try to understand where they are coming from... We won't have a successful movement until we start thinking in these ways.

[peanutbutter]

Again, define dispensary before you even have the discussion.

 

Why? My idea of what a dispensary is just as valid as your idea.

 

There are a few local governments have tried to define exactly what a dispensary is.

 

I could quote what Ann Arbor says. You could quote what Traverse City says.

 

We could both be right and still be in disagreement.

 

At this time, there is nothing in federal or state law that tells us exactly what a dispensary is.

 

Exactly what activities that take place inside a building for that building to be a dispensary? Answer = undefined.

[DenturesLost]

Why? My idea of what a dispensary is just as valid as your idea.

 

There are a few local governments have tried to define exactly what a dispensary is.

 

I could quote what Ann Arbor says. You could quote what Traverse City says.

 

We could both be right and still be in disagreement.

 

At this time, there is nothing in federal or state law that tells us exactly what a dispensary is.

 

Exactly what activities that take place inside a building for that building to be a dispensary? Answer = undefined.

No one is saying your idea is invalid. Stop getting so defensive. The WHY is because you cannot continue to argue whether a dispensary is legal or illegal if you aren't using the same definition as others. Is it illegal for me to smoke a blunt in the town square? We cannot answer that before first defining blunt now can we? The popular urban use of blunt would be a cigar filled with mj. The old use of blunt meant the brand Blunt, which is a brand of cigar. The answer as to whether it is legal to smoke a blunt in town square turns on which definition you are adopting.

 

You continue to apply your own mysterious definition to the word dispensary, flipping it when it benefits your point of view. Dispensary needs a static definition in order to debate it as we are.