Please Help Mm Patients By Noting In This Thread How State Law Needs To Be Amended For Our Needs

[Croppled1]

I keep seeing people say there is this conflict in law or practice resulting in the entire system being unfair to patients . This whole concept of marijuana prohibition in medicine over 70 years has created a snarled web of corruption and overly severe penalties against individuals that mushroom in banking , medical care , forfeiture dealing with firearms in ones home when MM is present and the truth not being allowed to be told in State Courts when the Act is State Law . For those who can and want to put information for our legislators in one thread ...can you ... will you help organize these thoughts in one place . All patients need your help . I see these items mentioned in so many threads and we know State Law is what dictates most arrests . How can these issues be improved and what were your experiences , how have they injured tiy and the others ? Can you please help others understand how they effect your ability to simply have benefit from participation in our State voter approved MMM Act . How would you change current law and procedure to create a fair and just playing field in practice for those who just want to reap the benefits of the act and move forward with their health care needs unencumbered doing business as usual ? Note problems then solutions if you can think of one . I don't think their is one thread like this with patients solutions . We just accept our treatment like it can't be changed for the better if I am wrong please point me to it . Improvement is never ending .

 

 

I will start out with my pet peave " Truth in Trials ." . It is ridiculous that State and Local Judges are holding on to Federal Policy in our Courts denying truth in trials about medical Cannabis use . Medical Marihuana is State Law - not Federal . All State Courts must recognize this defense and the concept that their is a legal level of activity that should be recognized always . If there is a problem then we need wording in tort and criminal compiled law to re-define and make sure the truth is always allowed to be told in State trials . I hope we can point out many more problems here that need addressing . Its like giving a dollar it seems so little but if enough people contribute you just might help a cause . I can still dream .as can you

[thanks2]

I do think the “truth in trial” is one of the biggest issues. The jury should know the facts and it is an outrage the courts have found this to be acceptable.

 

Another big issue is the raiding of homes. Masked men enter with machines guns killing pets and harming children. The simple smell of marijuana or grow materials should not warrant the execution of a deadly raid on a family. Raids need to be considered extraordinary means and a last resort and not for misdemeanor offenses.

 

Those who do these raids are not being held accountable. They keep no records on how many houses they raid or for what offenses. There are no records on the number of wrong addresses or other mistake raids that we too often read about in the papers. Also there is no data on the conviction rate of those who are raided. Basically it is a free for all heavy handed tactic that always results in harm to the family raided and potential harm to the officers.

 

Maryland passed a law to hold those who raid homes accountable. They found that the large majority of raids are for misdemeanor offenses. So the state is sanctioning violence against non-violent citizens for minor offenses.

 

America is considered a great country because we have checks and balances. This value needs to be reinstated and practiced to insure our future. If you would have told some one a hundred year ago that the state was going to start kicking in doors, killing pets and people, and taking people property over marijuana, they would have called you crazy. What will be the next excuse for doing harm to the citizens?

[+Silverblue]

Croppled, this is EXCELLENT! All I can add is, it seems they never intended to honor the law, if they did, most of our problems wouldn't be happening. The saddest part about what brings all the trouble is from those who are abusing it, who, of course, are being held up as examples of why it doesn't work. The majority of us are abiding by the law. Dispensaries were not written into our law, that's one of the main problems. The other is the doctors, many want to recommend it but are afraid, though there are protections written into the law for them. Many doctors refuse to sign a cert, supervisors threaten to terminate any dr who does, this is why the card mills exist, and why it's so easy for someone who doesn't need it, to fake an illness and get certified. How many primary care physicians are willing to recommend MM? Not many, it seems. Law enforcement, doctors, many attorneys, and judges aren't properly educated about our law. It all ties together- the people directly involved in the process are uninformed or misinformed. Why does this community have to do everything? It seems we bear the burden of responsibility for everyone. WE have to educate THEM. Before I got involved in this, I surfed around the net and even peeked at this site. I'm glad I did, I was very naive in believing I could be oopen about being a pt. If I hadn't come here I would've made some serious mistakes. The law was cleverly written. I think it could use a few changes, in our favor, like allowing for a backup cg in case something happens to the crop and/or the person. Before anything can change, our law must first be implemented and enforced properly, respected and honored by all, regardless of their personal feelings, period. I suggest an oversight board that'd keep everyone honest. That'd be a tough job to carry out though, considering how many pt''s and cg's there are. A lot of our problem is the conflict with the feds. IF MM is ever allowed by them, not just the THC but the whole plant, we'd have to be sure we'd still be allowed to grow it, not govt or big pharma. It's a complicated issue that could be much simpler if some people would do what they're supposed to do. Sick people have always been the target of unscrupulous profiteers, because they're perceived as being too weak and/or stupid to fight back.

 

sb

[Croppled1]

bobandtorey, on 17 March 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:I don't want your personal fight

are fight is not personal we have helped many people that were waiting for their cards and had their Rec's be for they got raided don;t get me wrong but the card wont help any one but i would not tell anyone not to get it

soon the MMMA may have their own registry program so that we can stop sending are money to the State at least the MMMA will put that 5 million dollars to work for the sick and that is why we / us want and all the Lawyers and the PA's talk about are case because we were Legal and they no it other wise we would be inn jail IMO

 

 

 

Its time our officials stopped wagging tongues about being tough on drugs regarding medicinal marihuana in Michigan and questioned why this program isn't being accepted and run in the interests of qualified patients period . . Due to discrimination it may be necessary to amend Michigan's Compiled laws on marihuana for qualified patients to NEVER apply more then a misdemeanor up to a certain high threshold or some other sort of remedy to combat the discrimination and injustice from those that morally oppose patients in disregard to protecting them from harm . Why should any patient a few plants over or one who finds themselves with too much cured material thats sick and scared they might not be able to keep a uninterrupted supply so they don't or even can't destroy it ....... live in fear of felonies and forfeiture abuse with jail . They are not able to properly dispense meds timely or at all in jail our foster care homes can't even handle patient regimens there are so many error's and people improperly medicated within standards that never will apply to real life situations .

[Bisharoo]

bobandtorey, on 17 March 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:I don't want your personal fight

are fight is not personal we have helped many people that were waiting for their cards and had their Rec's be for they got raided don;t get me wrong but the card wont help any one but i would not tell anyone not to get it

soon the MMMA may have their own registry program so that we can stop sending are money to the State at least the MMMA will put that 5 million dollars to work for the sick and that is why we / us want and all the Lawyers and the PA's talk about are case because we were Legal and they no it other wise we would be inn jail IMO

 

 

 

Its time our officials stopped wagging tongues about being tough on drugs regarding medicinal marihuana in Michigan and questioned why this program isn't being accepted and run in the interests of qualified patients period . . Due to discrimination it may be necessary to amend Michigan's Compiled laws on marihuana for qualified patients to NEVER apply more then a misdemeanor up to a certain high threshold or some other sort of remedy to combat the discrimination and injustice from those that morally oppose patients in disregard to protecting them from harm . Why should any patient a few plants over or one who finds themselves with too much cured material thats sick and scared they might not be able to keep a uninterrupted supply so they don't or even can't destroy it ....... live in fear of felonies and forfeiture abuse with jail . They are not able to properly dispense meds timely or at all in jail our foster care homes can't even handle patient regimens there are so many error's and people improperly medicated within standards that never will apply to real life situations .

So well said and your sentiments echo in my mind very well. Thanks for your efforts Croppled1here and this is a good idea that I hope can come about. Peace to all this day...

[bobandtorey]

bobandtorey, on 17 March 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:I don't want your personal fight

are fight is not personal we have helped many people that were waiting for their cards and had their Rec's be for they got raided don;t get me wrong but the card wont help any one but i would not tell anyone not to get it

soon the MMMA may have their own registry program so that we can stop sending are money to the State at least the MMMA will put that 5 million dollars to work for the sick and that is why we / us want and all the Lawyers and the PA's talk about are case because we were Legal and they no it other wise we would be inn jail IMO

 

 

 

Its time our officials stopped wagging tongues about being tough on drugs regarding medicinal marihuana in Michigan and questioned why this program isn't being accepted and run in the interests of qualified patients period . . Due to discrimination it may be necessary to amend Michigan's Compiled laws on marihuana for qualified patients to NEVER apply more then a misdemeanor up to a certain high threshold or some other sort of remedy to combat the discrimination and injustice from those that morally oppose patients in disregard to protecting them from harm . Why should a man a few plants over or a patient who finds themselves with too much cured material thats sick and scared they might not be able to keep a uninterrupted supply so they don't or even can't destroy it ....... live in fear of felonies and forfeiture abuse with jail . They do not give meds in jail our foster care homes can't even handle patient regimens there are so many error's and people improperly medicated within standards that never will apply to real life situations .

 

Wednesday on the MMMA radio show the Lawyer was talking about this very thing why should we give them any thing when they(Gov) cant even follow the Law and yes we were under plant count and under 5oz we had less then 1oz on hand and are plants were 3-4 inch high

if a card holder is not following the Law then fine do what you have be doing we had are Doc: Rec: be for the raid

[Croppled1]

if a card holder is not following the Law then fine do what you have be doing .

 

 

Bob I know your innocent and paying a price regardless in defense and time well outweighing what jpenalty a person should ever receive for MM ever not that one should pay one . Thats my point . It's time the standard of non compliance became so high with penalties lower ( in all Michigan compiled Marihuana law ) for qualified patients under interpretation of the MMM Act that discrimination could no longer take place hiding behind this lie of tough love of Citizens that enriches the status quo . The drug war concept is wrong and it sure doesn't apply to patients attempting to exercise their right to self medicate towards comfort . There is suffering enough already leave patients out of it . Medicinal Cannabis's efficacy is proven and any other notion is a pure fabrication . Medicinal Cannabis laws are a direct offshoot of discrimination and it's time we backed them up in practice 100% freeing patients from the chains of any hatred that is injuring them through interaction with those that oppose it as well as those that are uneducated about growing and the activities that surround MM in practice . The Act needs not one word changed but Michigan Compiled Laws regarding Marihuana all need to be updated to reflect qualified patient needs and to protect them from discrimination that is apparent . We need our 38 Senators to work on this and bringing deserving patients into society - not more restrictions that are driving good people underground at a loss to society and their health outcomes

[bobandtorey]

if a card holder is not following the Law then fine do what you have be doing

 

Bob I know your innocent and paying a price regardless in defense and time well outweighing what jpenalty a person should ever receive for MM ever not that one should pay one . Thats my point . It's time the standard of non compliance became so high for qualified patients under interpretation of the MMM Act that discrimination can no longer take place hiding behind this lie of tough love of Citizens that enriches the status quo . The drug war concept is wrong and it sure doesn't apply to patients attempting to exercise their right to self medicate towards comfort . There is suffering enough already leave patients out of it . Medicinal Cannabis's efficacy is proven and any other notion is a pure fabrication . Medicinal Cannabis laws are a direct offshoot of discrimination and it's time we backed them up in practice 100% freeing patients from the chains of any hatred that is injuring them through interaction with those that oppose it as well as those that are uneducated about growing and the activities that surround MM in practice .

 

Thanks for your support lets take are fight to Lansing on May 25 lets stand togetter on the steps and tell them

WE ANT GOING TO TAKE IT NO MORE

[Croppled1]

Thanks for your support lets take are fight to Lansing on May 25 lets stand togetter on the steps and tell them

WE ANT GOING TO TAKE IT NO MORE

 

 

Its ok were not going to take it no more but we need solutions like specific changes to the General Michigan Compiled Laws regarding Qualified Patients that create a environment where those that oppose Michigan's Medical Marihuana Act can't dish out oppression - NO MORE !

 

Bob I know you have been working to develop solutions . We need everyones ideas even to the point of direct proposals to existing compiled law . LIke no felonies for merely having legal hunting or registered firearms period in a medical marihuana household per State Law ..there must be hundreds of examples on how the regular compiled laws need to be amended or addendum's added . Our 38 State Senators and 110 House Representatives just are not close enough to the issue of participants in the program to understand these ineeds without our help . Without our putting them down one by one positive change for patients will never happen . If anyone can think of a MM problem with a solution put oit down so we can all learn from eachother and effect positive benefit . Peace .

[+washtenaut]

If our state will allow users of every prescription and over the counter medication to drive a motor vehicle as long as they are not impaired and allows users of alcohol to drive as long as they are not impaired, it is only reasonable to expect that users of medical marijuana should be allowed to operate motor vehicles as long as they are not impaired. Zero tolerance of THC or THC metabolites in drivers would seem to indicate that the state is singling out this group of citizens for uncommon, harsh, and unequal treatment.

 

As with any drug, with regular use a person learns how the drug affects them and can plan accordingly. Users of this legal medicine are no different and must be allowed to drive in order to be productive citizens.

 

Please examine scientific studies and data when devising a test for marijuana impairment. If the test is to be based on THC levels in the blood, please find volunteer medical marijuana patients (heavy daily users) and examine their blood THC levels. To set an arbitrary blood THC level without considering and examining medical marijuana patients could also be seen as discriminating against this group.

[bobandtorey]

If the MMMA takes the money from MDCH they would here us then i bet

we already no as long as to got your Doc Rec you are coved and they know it money will talk

[bobandtorey]

We don't like to talk about it on here as to this is a Medical site but really the only way for this to work is to legalize

[Croppled1]

Please reform property forfeiture laws to protect citizens’ Rights! The Framers of the United States Constitution understood that freedom depends upon the vigorous protection of private property rights and that this protection was therefore the most sacred obligation of government. However, despite Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment guarantees, recent years have witnessed a massive expansion of a legal practice known as "asset forfeiture," which allows government to violate the very property rights it is charged with protecting. Hundreds of asset forfeiture laws-many of them intended to stop illegal drug trafficking-give state and federal law enforcement agents the power to seize property even without proof of the owners' guilt in a criminal trial because, in many cases, the government considers the property itself to be the criminal. This study recommends nine reforms that will help guarantee that Michigan citizens enjoy the benefits of private property rights, limited government, and individual liberty, and remain protected from unjustified and arbitrary seizure of their personal possessions.

 

In Michigan, the prosecution must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the assets should be subject to forfeiture due to a "substantial connection" between the property and illegal behavior. Though preponderance of evidence must be shown at trial, only probable cause is necessary to initially seize the property. A "preponderance of evidence" standard is stricter than "probable cause" (the standard required to obtain a search warrant), but less demanding than the standard required to find a defendant in a criminal trial guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt."

By contrast, most federal forfeiture laws require only a showing of probable cause that an asset is connected to an illegal activity before it is subject to forfeiture. Probable cause is more than a mere suspicion but much less than prima facie proof or proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It is merely the showing of a "reasonable ground for belief" that there was an illegal activity to which this property had a substantial connection. In either case, the state need not obtain a finding of guilt of a crime in a criminal court before subjecting a citizen to the punishment of forfeiture.

 

Despite the owner’s role in the trial the proceedings are considered in rem civil proceedings—that is, against the "guilty" property and not a person. This legal fiction proceeds on the assumption that inanimate objects can be guilty of wrongdoing yet not protected by the rights available to persons. Though this personification of inanimate objects is heavily criticized and often described by judges as an anomaly or "archaic theory," most judges nonetheless feel compelled to follow the longstanding precedent establishing the fiction. However, the fact that a legal doctrine exists does not establish that it ought to exist, constitutionally or otherwise.

 

Because the proceedings are in rem and civil, most of the normal protections afforded criminal defendants do not exist in forfeiture proceedings. Thus, the right to an indictment, the presumption of innocence, the right to effective assistance of counsel, the right to a jury trial, the right not to be punished prior to adjudication of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, the right not to be punished in a manner disproportionate to the crime, the general presumption that the state prove culpability, and the practice of resolving legal ambiguities in favor of the defendant all do not apply. Many of the limitations on government action normally attendant to a criminal trial are likewise eliminated. Civil discovery is but one example: It allows the state broad evidence-gathering tools, including the ability to compel production of certain evidence from the owner. Thus, the civil forfeiture scheme ignores the policy that imposing punishment—despite court rulings, the seizure of property can be nothing else—is meant to be difficult. Consequently, the government often has an incentive to use this less difficult route as a substitute for criminal prosecution.

 

Michigan and federal policy makers please;

...Remove incentives for law enforcement agencies to employ asset forfeiture. End the twin practices of allowing law enforcement agencies to profit from the sale of the assets they seize and paying informants to provide information to help build forfeiture cases.

...End federal "adoption" of state forfeiture cases. State law agents should be prohibited from asking federal agents to "adopt" forfeiture cases. Michigan property owners should not have to fight the full resources of the federal government, whose forfeiture laws provide less of a barrier to asset seizure.

...Shift the burden of proof from property owners to government. Property owners must currently establish the "innocence" of their property once it has been seized. Government should be required to show proof that disputed property is connected to illegal activity before it can be seized.

...Establish nexus and proportionality requirements for forfeiture. Current law should be changed to require government to show connection between specific property and a crime for which guilt has been found. The amount of property seized should be in proportion to the crime committed by its owner.

...Eliminate legal hurdles to citizens’ ability to challenge forfeiture. Lawmakers should extend the length of time citizens are given to file claims to seized property and eliminate the requirement that they post bond to do so. Successful claimants should be reimbursed by the government for expenses incurred during forfeiture proceedings.

...Require law enforcement agents to publicly justify forfeiture proceedings. Law enforcement agencies should be required to publish an explanation each time they seize and retain private property. The resulting public awareness will encourage self-restraint on the part of law enforcement agencies.

...Enact protections against forfeiture for innocent owners of property. Language in forfeiture statutes should be strengthened to ensure that property owners who have not participated in, or acquiesced to, a crime committed with their property are not punished with forfeiture.

...Give third-party creditors the chance to recover seized property. Innocent third parties with an interest in seized property, such as lien holders, should be given a judicial remedy to recover against the government.

...Ensure that asset forfeiture reforms do not include an expanded definition of criminal behavior. If asset forfeiture is allowed only upon proof of a related crime, lawmakers should resist any urge to broaden the definition of criminal behavior to include currently noncriminal activities.

 

 

If nobody else stands up for why qualified patients should never have zero tolerance applied to them in education including grants and scholorships , activity inclusion , etc let it rip if and when you have the time and or health . . This thread proballey won't but should become huge as there is so much that needs addressing to imrpove the program which should be the proper focus of our legislatures not diminishing it , creating more probelms for the sick and disabled that distance them even further from societal interaction . At some point people might even match up compiled Laws on the books with the actual adjustments to create a better more workable and truely safe environment for patients that legislators can understand and apply easily . . Great read thanks I learned allot and I bet 38 Senators and 110 House members in Michigan could find something new and maybe even motivation to improve our State and the patients program without touching anything in the original act .

 

The Forfeiture Form

http://www.michigan....012_12684_7.pdf

 

The Law

http://www.legislatu...me=mcl-333-7521

 

http://www.legislatu...me=mcl-333-7522

 

 

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bebols450g0u0v55rf4aimr1))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-333-7523

 

http://www.legislatu...me=mcl-333-7523

 

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bebols450g0u0v55rf4aimr1))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-333-7524

http://www.legislatu...me=mcl-333-7525

 

Protections for authorities .

http://www.legislatu...me=mcl-333-7531

 

Hit the arrows moving through the Michigan Compiled Law records for those not familar with them . There is allot that needs to be changed now that their are qualified patients operating in a legal environment which need protection without a doubt from harm of those who discriminate and have no discreation . Sadly it is apparent common sense will not be enough to police what some people wrongly see as a moral issue instead of a medicinal one .

[smokinsumbud]

If our state will allow users of every prescription and over the counter medication to drive a motor vehicle as long as they are not impaired and allows users of alcohol to drive as long as they are not impaired, it is only reasonable to expect that users of medical marijuana should be allowed to operate motor vehicles as long as they are not impaired. Zero tolerance of THC or THC metabolites in drivers would seem to indicate that the state is singling out this group of citizens for uncommon, harsh, and unequal treatment.

 

As with any drug, with regular use a person learns how the drug affects them and can plan accordingly. Users of this legal medicine are no different and must be allowed to drive in order to be productive citizens.

 

Please examine scientific studies and data when devising a test for marijuana impairment. If the test is to be based on THC levels in the blood, please find volunteer medical marijuana patients (heavy daily users) and examine their blood THC levels. To set an arbitrary blood THC level without considering and examining medical marijuana patients could also be seen as discriminating against this group.

 

Very good point ... our actions should not be portrayed by some group of scientific "test subects"... whom have probably never even consumed mmj before the study .