Dwc Droopy Plant What Is Wrong Here

[kak1963]

Ok so I finally get some time on a computer to post.

I checked the water temp and it read 79f. The totes were on a skid with casters so I could move them around easier. They were about 6 inches off the ground. I took the skid away and placed the totes directly on the cement floor to keep the water cool. The room temp at 11 inches from the light ranges 72-81f. Humidity is 21%.

 

I flushed the tote, and gave the roots an H2O2 bath. I also omitted the beneficial bacteria I have been using. I also omitted the zyme capsules from green planet line. Something that I did worked because she has recovered fully. I can tell that she will be a bit stunted compared to the other plants but she is alive and well. Probably added another 2 weeks to finish bloom.

 

I think the biggest issue (which may have been water temps) was the elevated skids. The air passing under them raised the temps. I think the cement floor will keep the temps cool. Also, I have to go get another thermometer. The one I used is broke and the replacement I bought doesn't work for this application.

very cool ... yea on the cement is way better... easy two week added on if not more bro... glad u got them going again... pick up some sm-90.. and use it ... u will love how it makes your bubbles roar and it protects your roots .... let us know how far your temps lowered also... sounds like you are back in the game... gr8 job....

[ruan1980]

Ok, so more updates folks. The sick plants as mentioned already have fully recovered. However, there are more problems with a new strain I put into 12/12 two days ago.

 

I put a new strain into the same flower room two days ago. New tote, fresh nutes, everything. I put 4 plants in there. I've got two buckets with two plants in each bucket under a 600w hps. Room temp goes from 70-79, humidity 29%, water temp 77.9f.

 

I checked on them 24 hours later and they were infected big time with the same symptoms. Droopy, sagging, dark green, falling over. The two in toteB are way worse than the two in toteA.

 

ToteA: in 24hrs the ph went from 6.2 to 5.4

ToteB: in 24hrs the ph went from 6.2 to 4.8

 

I corrected both ph and added a bit of H2O2. Now I checked them again tonight (48hrs into flower).

 

ToteA perked up and are looking to make a nice recovery ph 5.9.

ToteB no signs of recovery. limp droopy sickly looking. ph 5.4. I fixed it to 6.1ph. Cleaned it out, gave the roots an H2O2 solution bath and added a bit of H2O2 into res.

 

What could cause PH to lower so much in such a small amount of time?

 

Now this is frustrating because even though I fixed the problem before it has come back. I think the consensus is that it's due to either:

-high res temps/low D.O. 77.9f

-fungus or bacterial infection (H2O2 bath, produced some bubbles when dipped into H2O2 solution but not a lot)

-maybe light leak into res/algae (the lids are not complete light proof, I fixed that tonight. there is a bit of brown/green gunky stuff at water level on the pvc tube)

 

I really do not want to have these problems every time I put a new set into flower. I do what I can to help keep res temps low but I am not sure what else I can do. Cannot afford immersion chillers for every res. 24hrs seems like a super fast time for these symptoms to be so bad. What could cause this in only 24 hours?

 

 

I should add that all four of these plants looked very healthy. Perfectly green and vibrate while in the veg room. They had different totes and used Jungle Juice 3 part. (Green Planet line is used in flower) Also, they vegged under florescent bulbs. The veg room is much warmer and they looked perfect.

 

I use RO water with CalMg in veg and ProCal in flower.

[ruan1980]

I would like to add that my PPM is at around 1640. Does anyone have experience with high ppm and root rot problems coinciding? The PPM in veg was kept at 1000. I am using the feeding chart that comes with Green Planet nutes.

 

It would be so great to lower PPM and have all problems go away, wishful thinking.

[Highlander]

When your room is pushing 80 degrees and the RH is that low (average RH of the Sahara desert is 25%), your plants will suck up more water than nutes. This leaves concentrated nutes, which drops the pH.

 

You will struggle until you do two things - get the water recirculating, and get a chiller. Right now you can get a chiller for cheap. Buy a $30 fountain pump, hook a garden hose to it, run it outside, then back into your res. Of course you'll have to plumb all o your totes together, but this can be done relatively cheap. This quick fix will buy you some time so you can plan to invest in a $200 chiller.

 

Edited to add: Note in the above, the reason for the higher nutes is also addressed.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Highlander

[Highlander]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mister-Clone-1-inch-25mm-DRAIN-BOTTOM-Ebb-Flow-Fittings-Hydroponics-IGS-/251050372872?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item3a73c4af08

 

Here is what you need to get your system recirculating. These can be installed on totes or even 5-gallon pails. Two per tote/bucket. Then buy whatever length of 1" hose you need. Don't get the 1/2" crap, it takes three times as long to move the water along, and it just isn't adequate. You need two fittings per tote/bucket.

 

Plumb all your totes together. I have what I call my "reservoir" which is a 30-gallon container with one outlet that feeds into bucket #1, which feeds bucket #2 etc etc. Eventually we get to the end of the loop where there is what I call a "sump." This is a 5-gallon bucket connected to the last grow bucket in the loop. The "sump" has a small fountain pump that slowly pumps water out of the sump, through a chiller or outdoor coil, then back to the reservoir. I have a valve on the pump to slow down the flow to maintain a steady, even flow.

 

For $100 to $150, some basic tools, and a little bit of handiness, you can get things recirculating. Problem solved until spring. But you just cant have water pushing 80 degrees and have a rewarding grow.

[Highlander]

I'll add that I have sacrificed male plants in the name of determining how long before one droops in stagnant water. Some looked bad after only 12 hours in an 80ish degree room.

[ruan1980]

I tried an 8 bucket recirculating system before but had problems with leaks. I believe it was due to the buckets being rounded and the grommets not making a good seal. Currently I have them recirculating individually. Each bucket has a pump that pumps the water up through a pvc T and splashes back into the res. In the past this has created plenty of DO to never have problems but now I'm not so sure. Maybe I will add a couple air stones. (the air pump noise is why I didn't use them before but I have figured out how to muffle that noise)

 

Is there anyway these problems could be attributed to like leaks into the res. I know the lids weren't light proof (they are yellow lids that you find on totes).

 

I would like to add that the 1600ppm is what I got from using the chart for GreenPlanet nutes. The ppm has not changed from start.

 

My next step is to amp up the DO by adding air stones.

[Highlander]

Water at 64 degrees will dissolved just about twice as much oxygen as water at 80 degrees.

 

I have gotten lazy and left lids of buckets for days.

 

The only time I have had issues in DWC like what you describe is when I could not keep my water temps under 70 degrees.

 

You already have the makings of an easy solution. If instead of the waterfalls, you pump the water to a common reservoir, say 30 gallons, and put an overflow in it that drains back to each plant. That way your nute solution gets mixed around, and you have a central place to check/mix. That 30-gallon tote will have about 25 gallons in it at any given time. Then you can get a small pond pump, drop it in that reservoir, do the hose loop outdoor thing, and drain back to the reservoir....nice, chilled water. Your problems will vanish.

[ruan1980]

I wonder how much those pumps are heating up the water anyway. They are 264gph submersible pumps. Could it heat up the water 5degrees? As of right now the water temp is 76.9f. I put a bucket of water (water at same level at res) next to the tote. I will check the temp in a few hours.

 

It's been a couple hours since my flush and it looks like they are trying to perk up. The stems are feeling stiffer but still ways to go.

Edited January 18, 2013 by ruan1980

[ruan1980]

They have come back and are looking good. Two of them have made a full recovery while the other two had considerable loss. I trimmed away about 3/4 of dead branches but the remaining looks healthy. H2O2 is a miracle worker. My plan is to switch from pumps with waterfalls to air stones. I have already purchased a big air pump and will do the change over tomorrow.

 

I am still amazed that root rot can consume an entire plant in only 24 hours. I did an inspection of the water pump and found inside it was full of roots and slime. I'm guess it didn't help to have roots sucked up, sliced off, and die. It has a filter but it doesn't block everything.

 

Environment is everything. A sanitary secured tent that got in excess of 94f never had one problem with root rot. But, a 70-79f cement basement had root rot take over fast. I also bought a jug with a sprayer hose which I am going to use to spray a bleach solution over all walls, floor, and ceiling. I have neem oil that I plan on wiping on the entry way and near the intake.

Edited January 20, 2013 by ruan1980

[Dlo]

Frozen water bottles work too

[shredder0911]

When you switch to air stones, make sure you have a few spares and check them regularly (be vigilant). I almost made another rookie mistake, in assuming that all were fine, even thought some are so engulfed in roots I couldn't see any bubbles. Disconnected the stone and dropped from bottom, then re-connected to test, and saw that my older stones were clogged and barely bubbling. Soaking them in vinegar now and hope that allows me to re-use them, after soaking in water and pumping any residual vinegar out. I have done this with other herbs and veggies, so hope the ladies don't mind.

[Highlander]

When you switch to air stones, make sure you have a few spares and check them regularly (be vigilant). I almost made another rookie mistake, in assuming that all were fine, even thought some are so engulfed in roots I couldn't see any bubbles. Disconnected the stone and dropped from bottom, then re-connected to test, and saw that my older stones were clogged and barely bubbling. Soaking them in vinegar now and hope that allows me to re-use them, after soaking in water and pumping any residual vinegar out. I have done this with other herbs and veggies, so hope the ladies don't mind.

 

I have three loops of buckets, each with its own stone. I found out a long time ago not to buy the cheap sandstone bubblers, they dissolve in your nute solution. I found some small but very effective ceramic stones on eBay. They hardly ever clog, but when they do clog, they clean up well. I soak my stones in either strong H2O2 or diluted acid. I find sulfuric acid to work best, although vinegar does work well too - just takes longer.

 

I had one plant almost die from root rot about two weeks ago. Her airstone was plugged. II then realized it had been three years since I cleaned that loop, two years since I cleaned the buckets in the second loop, and I only cleaned the third loop last year. So I cleaned every bucket, line, stone, everything. It took 8 hours. Not bad even if I did this once per year.

 

I think now I'm going to install a second stone in every bucket. Saving one or two future dead plants would probably cover the addition equipment cost.

 

The thing to remember after you soak your stones - plug them in and let them bubble in a bucket of clean water to flush out the cleaning agents before you return it to the bucket.

[kak1963]

on the air stones... u know u don't really have to have them u can weight down the air line to stay at the bottom...what pulls air down into the water is the surface rolling and pulling it down like in lakes .. wont ever plug up.. u have to think how fast the bubbles are going to the surface.. theirs no way these plants can use them them that fast . its when it rolls the water that pulls it into the water.. been doing it for years with out air stones. frozen water bottles suck for this u cant regulate it and they will melt to fast .. u will be baby sitting it all day and night...

[shredder0911]

on the air stones... u know u don't really have to have them u can weight down the air line to stay at the bottom...what pulls air down into the water is the surface rolling and pulling it down like in lakes .. wont ever plug up.. u have to think how fast the bubbles are going to the surface.. theirs no way these plants can use them them that fast . its when it rolls the water that pulls it into the water.. been doing it for years with out air stones. frozen water bottles suck for this u cant regulate it and they will melt to fast .. u will be baby sitting it all day and night...

I thought about this, but since I use a manifold, I think having the back pressure from the stones helps even out the flow across all legs of the system. I don't have valves on all manifolds, although the metal ones do have valves, they also get hot.

 

I have a new question, so hopefully someone can help. I read that putting a 500mg vitamin C tablet in 5 gallons of tap water will help reduce down the chloramines so they can be bubbled out as a gas. However, since I started doing this, I get black stuff growing on my airstones. In addition I occasionally get some sort of slime growing in the water and sticking to the airline. I was thinking this may be residual bio-gold microbes, but making me sort of uneasy since this didn't happen until I started using the Vitamin C.

[kak1963]

it does help at first but then they plug up at different rates the easiest way to keep them even is open lines and valves as the shortest lines will have more pressure.. never did it on the vit c ...for ever i go straight from the main water line with city water right into my tubs ...and let it warm and bubble over nite with my plants in it before i mix my nutes... a better choice if ur worried about that is fish tank treatment.. but i don't do a thing...

[shredder0911]

I used Seachem Safe and Prime for many years in Fl, for my African Cichlids fish, but wasn't sure how they would affect the plant nutes. I ended up spending more than I would have on Seachem, for some citric acid, after I saw a guy saying that citric acid was a good way to eliminate chloramines. I tried a small amount, and turned my test bucket ACID big time. I tried a small pinch the next time, before reading about the vit C/ascorbic acid method. I sent the guy, from Prokashi, a message but he never replied.

[kak1963]

ahh bummer on that... i wouldn't bother though.. but if its safe for the plants in the water it shouldn't hurt these either .. but i got tired of buying stuff i didn't need .. and just made it easier with less and do much better... hey i saw the ppm ur running.. way to high imho... i very rarely go over 1000 ppm at the .5 scale in flower start out at 800 in transition.. in veg i never go above 800 at the end of veg.. the higher ur ppm the higher the osmosis is in the water.. {electric current} which will make them transpire less.. which also can cause dehydration. most think more is better.. but not in dwc.. some plants the highest i get to in flower is 800 to 900 max.. its all they need .

[ruan1980]

Well the problem was fixed with the H2O2, but I got this "great" idea that I would change to some different easier to access buckets when I changed to air stones. I got them sanitized and hooked up everything. Remade a batch of nutes and now 48hours later they are showing those signs again. Droopy, weak looking leaves. These are 6 weeks into flower. The temp read 73.2f, much cooler than the 76.9f it was at in the other buckets.

So now I wonder why do I have to have this problem every time I change the res.

 

And, should I just add a bit of H2O2 at every res change to prevent this? I am confident that it will keep away the rot. Does anyone do this as a preventative measure? Means I would need to stop the zyme caps.

 

Here's what I did:

Greenplanet bloom A: 10ml/gl

greenplanet bloom B: 10ml/gl

greenplanet procal: 10ml/gl

greenplanet aussie tonic: 6ml/gl

greenplanet massive: 20ml/gl

greenplanet finisher: 10ml/gl

greenplanet liquid w-8: 6ml/gl

greenplanet zymecaps: 1 capsule

 

This put the water at 1540ppm and 6.0ph. It seems to adjust the ph on its own.

 

The water is R.O. water that is being store in an old chemical barrel, plastic. The barrel was used by a car wash to hold soap. Has been cleaned out. The barrel has an air stone in it so the R.O. water doesn't go stagnant. The water reads 10ppm, 6.6ph

 

My veg room has 10 young plants that use the R.O. water and Jungle Juice 3 part nutes. They are looking great. Actually have a heater in there to warm it up because the cfl's don't warm up the room enough. Never a problem with root rot or anything really.

 

I also cleaned the bloom room with a bleach solution from top to bottom.

Edited January 24, 2013 by ruan1980

[shredder0911]

Well the problem was fixed with the H2O2, but I got this "great" idea that I would change to some different easier to access buckets when I changed to air stones. I got them sanitized and hooked up everything. Remade a batch of nutes and now 48hours later they are showing those signs again. Droopy, weak looking leaves. These are 6 weeks into flower. The temp read 74.1f, much cooler than the 76.9f it was at in the other buckets.

So now I wonder why do I have to have this problem every time I change the res.

 

And, should I just add a bit of H2O2 at every res change to prevent this? I am confident that it will keep away the rot. Does anyone do this as a preventative measure? Means I would need to stop the zyme caps.

 

Here's what I did:

Greenplanet bloom A: 10ml/gl

greenplanet bloom B: 10ml/gl

greenplanet procal: 10ml/gl

greenplanet aussie tonic: 6ml/gl

greenplanet massive: 20ml/gl

greenplanet finisher: 10ml/gl

greenplanet liquid w-8: 6ml/gl

greenplanet zymecaps: 1 capsule

 

This put the water at 1540ppm and 6.0ph. It seems to adjust the ph on its own.

 

The water is R.O. water that is being store in an old chemical barrel, plastic. The barrel was used by a car wash to hold soap. Has been cleaned out. The barrel has an air stone in it so the R.O. water doesn't go stagnant. The water reads 10ppm, 6.6ph

 

My veg room has 10 young plants that use the R.O. water and Jungle Juice 3 part nutes. They are looking great. Actually have a heater in there to warm it up because the cfl's don't warm up the room enough. Never a problem with root rot or anything really.

 

I also cleaned the bloom room with a bleach solution from top to bottom.

I switched to GP after I had issues, and from personal experience plants cannot handle the recommended doses which appears what you are using. I use less than half, for what appears (to me) to be best results. Another poster commented on your EC readings, but I don't have meter as mentioned. Way too many nutes in my opinion.

 

On a side note, I can tell you everytime you buy a new aquarium, all fish will die unless you introduce beneficial bacteria from healthy tank first. However, if using zyme which I haven't tried, I would think this should work.

[ruan1980]

The res is 6.1ph, 73.2f, 1520ppm. I do think I could use 60% recommended nutes and see how they like that. I look at the res and I see root rot. Brown roots, cloudy water, droopy leaves. I'm not sure, if its not the temp or ph then maybe it's somewhere in the nutes.

 

Yes, I am using the pond&fountain beneficial bacteria and the zyme capsule. I have another strain that I didn't use the beneficial nor the zyme and still had rot.

[shredder0911]

The res is 6.1ph, 73.2f, 1520ppm. I do think I could use 60% recommended nutes and see how they like that. I look at the res and I see root rot. Brown roots, cloudy water, droopy leaves. I'm not sure, if its not the temp or ph then maybe it's somewhere in the nutes.

 

Yes, I am using the pond&fountain beneficial bacteria and the zyme capsule. I have another strain that I didn't use the beneficial nor the zyme and still had rot.

Not an expert, but do use GP lately and see discolored roots also above and to water level. The nute solution also has color (esp part A), so think It stains the roots, but below the surface they are generally whiter and healthy looking. Slime is not good though. Peroxide apparently kills beneficials, so I think you should use only in case of emergency/catastrophe.

[ruan1980]

I have about 3 weeks left in flower and plan on flushing next week. I will see how it goes when I flush with just water.

[ruan99]

...

Edited March 6, 2013 by ruan99

[ruan1980]

UPDATE! Well after three batches of the same symptoms, I have figured it out. Lost 2/3 of the crop the first batch, Made a recovery on the second batch, Lost 3/4 of the crop on the third batch. The symptoms were that of root rot which I did all I could to treat and prevent. Yet, every time I put a new set into flower room they would disease and die. Now I have found out exactly what was the cause.

 

It was not high res temps, nor low humidity, nor low dissolved oxygen, nor low/hi nutes. The culprit that kept killing off my girls was none other than a contaminated batch of nutrients. I am clueless as to how it got contaminated but after much trouble I have it pinpointed. Heck, when I dumped the bottle of nutes I saw white slimy wormy looking stuff pour out. Gross!

 

Anyway, I opened a new bottle and a new set of flowering plants are growing quite nicely. This problem had me so confused because everything I did to fix root rot causes was useless. I contemplated quitting and questioned my self worth as a grower. The nutrients in question was a bottle of Green Planet part A. I am still using this line up and it seems to be an isolated issue with that one bottle.

 

Thank you all for the help. We may have found a unique cause but I certainly gained a lot of knowledge from the responses.