Dwc Droopy Plant What Is Wrong Here

[semicaregiver]

Many people are focusing on water temp. He reported it to be in the 60's. It should be fine and not be the problem.

 

The lack of an airstone could be significant. Personally I use an aeroponic system where the nutrient solution is sprayed over the roots . The spray process creates the DO level necessary and one does not need an airstone. I could see the waterfall concept doing the same, but perhaps not as well.

 

I am curious why the waterfall instead of an airstone? It does not seem like it makes things any less complicated. While it eliminates an air line, you now need power to the pump.

[Highlander]

Many people are focusing on water temp. He reported it to be in the 60's. It should be fine and not be the problem.

 

The lack of an airstone could be significant. Personally I use an aeroponic system where the nutrient solution is sprayed over the roots . The spray process creates the DO level necessary and one does not need an airstone. I could see the waterfall concept doing the same, but perhaps not as well.

 

I am curious why the waterfall instead of an airstone? It does not seem like it makes things any less complicated. While it eliminates an air line, you now need power to the pump.

 

I guess I'm not convinced.

 

He said that the room temps are 70-80. It is just about impossible to have your water in the 60s if the room is always 70+. I'd like to hear how he does that? How do you have water in your totes that is colder than the room temp if you aren't cooling the water? I said earlier that something doesn't add up in this story. This is a good example.

 

I'd like a specific response from the OP on this temperature question: What is the temp of the water in each tote, and how do you know?? If you can't answer this question, you have found the source of a real problem.

 

I have seen plants droop like his for two reasons - bone dry or root rot issues. DWC rules out bone dry. That only leaves root health. Other issues such as pH and ppms will cause leaf discoloration. Drooping plants mean one thing: The plant isn't getting water. There are two reasons why a plant can't get water. 1. There is no water. 2. The roots are non-functional.

[shredder0911]

So, possibly we are getting somewhere. I ran DWC in really warm temps, but early on I used Garden Of Eden and my own reverse engineering to pump water against the top of the container (super waterfall). Later on I tried this in addition to airstones with much success. Eventually, I got to airstones only. Prior to my issues, I had used existing looooong tubing with T's in them, which potentially could cause warmer than usual air to be pumped through, as well as less air flow (both bad, as others have printed). As I understand it, fungi (as well as bacteria, but still believe this is fungal based on my HW) exist but can only grow stronger against a weakened plant. So, normally they can "ward off", but when weakened the fungi gain a foothold and can increase in #s and take over. I also used sucanat, but only at the end/flushing period, so whether it was killing the plants, was sort of moot. In addition, I use panda film (only recently) to make aprons for each, since I use black buckets and netpots, with the white side facing up toward the lights. Some leaves actually turn upside down to face the white, and I believe this lowers water temps.

Edited December 30, 2012 by shredder0911

[Highlander]

So, possibly we are getting somewhere. I ran DWC in really warm temps, but early on I used Garden Of Eden and my own reverse engineering to pump water against the top of the container (super waterfall). Later on I tried this in addition to airstones with much success. Eventually, I got to airstones only. Prior to my issues, I had used existing looooong tubing with T's in them, which potentially could cause warmer than usual air to be pumped through, as well as less air flow (both bad, as others have printed). As I understand it, fungi (as well as bacteria, but still believe this is fungal based on my HW) exist but can only grow stronger against a weakened plant. So, normally they can "ward off", but when weakened the fungi gain a foothold and can increase in #s and take over. I also used sucanat, but only at the end/flushing period, so whether it was killing the plants, was sort of moot. In addition, I use panda film (only recently) to make aprons for each, since I use black buckets and netpots, with the white side facing up toward the lights. Some leaves actually turn upside down to face the white, and I believe this lowers water temps.

 

Why the guesswork? I can guess my ppms and pH, but that would be silly. Why do people check pH and ppm but then they think they can guess temps?

 

You'd think I was a fool if I said "I looked at my res, and it looks like my nutes are about 1,000ppm, and it looks like the pH is 5.7"

[shredder0911]

Why the guesswork? I can guess my ppms and pH, but that would be silly. Why do people check pH and ppm but then they think they can guess temps?

 

You'd think I was a fool if I said "I looked at my res, and it looks like my nutes are about 1,000ppm, and it looks like the pH is 5.7"

I think guesswork comes into play when we deal with organisms we cannot see or measure. You keep referring to bacteria, when I am convinced this is a fungal issue, so why do you keep guessing bacillus? In addition, budgetary constraints leave many of us observing (much of which is not visible) and therefore guessing, so I don't measure ppms but have learned to tell what the plants seems to be trying to say (yes guessing). I have also read stories where folks thought their electonic ppm meters were accurate, and were not.

[Highlander]

I think guesswork comes into play when we deal with organisms we cannot see or measure. You keep referring to bacteria, when I am convinced this is a fungal issue, so why do you keep guessing bacillus? In addition, budgetary constraints leave many of us observing (much of which is not visible) and therefore guessing, so I don't measure ppms but have learned to tell what the plants seems to be trying to say (yes guessing). I have also read stories where folks thought their electonic ppm meters were accurate, and were not.

 

Gimme a break. As if I'm guessing my way through this. Would you say its a good idea to grow DWC with a nute temp of 80 degrees? How can we get a handle on this guy's issue if we don't know the temp of his nute solution?

 

I'm not guessing bacteria vs fungus. I'm saying that temperature of the nute solution will make or break DWC.

 

I'm saying that this grower needs to know the temps of his nute solution, as does anyone growing in DWC. DWC isn't a good method for anyone with severe budgetary restraints.

 

Get the temps under control, and these problems vanish.

 

 

Or are you saying that temps don't matter? Are you suggesting that the DWC grower doesn't really need to know what his nute temp is?

 

 

I'm still hoping that the OP will tell us the temp of the nute solution in each bucket and how he measured that. Only then can an experienced grower help him.

 

Why are you talking about bad meters? But while we're here, if my meter is a bit off as far as pH or ppm, my plants don't suddenly droop. Sp I'm not sure what inaccurate meters have to do with this discussion. Plants droop suddenly for about 2 reasons.....lack of water...or root damage.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Highlander

[Highlander]

I think guesswork comes into play when we deal with organisms we cannot see or measure. You keep referring to bacteria, when I am convinced this is a fungal issue, so why do you keep guessing bacillus? In addition, budgetary constraints leave many of us observing (much of which is not visible) and therefore guessing, so I don't measure ppms but have learned to tell what the plants seems to be trying to say (yes guessing). I have also read stories where folks thought their electonic ppm meters were accurate, and were not.

 

Do you think his plants are trying to say they need more O2 in the rootzone?

 

I do.

 

There are two great ways to increase O2 to the roots....pump in more air....and lower the water temp.....O2 dissolves waaaaay better in 68 degree water than it does in 70 degree water.

[semicaregiver]

Highlander, I think you are onto something regarding what seems to be an incorrect water temp reading. The water temp in the bucket should, after a day or two, equal the room temp. Plus, pumping water to create a waterfall effect requires a pump and that will add heat.

[Highlander]

Highlander, I think you are onto something regarding what seems to be an incorrect water temp reading. The water temp in the bucket should, after a day or two, equal the room temp. Plus, pumping water to create a waterfall effect requires a pump and that will add heat.

 

Yes - Bingo! And in my experience the water will be 2-3 degrees higher due to the air being warmed when it runs through the pump.

 

People should not grow DWC with nute temps above 68 degreesF...period. I'm sorry to anyone if I've come across harsh or bossy in this thread, but I have talked to many people who tried and failed DWC and they all have one thing in common. They thought their water was cool enough. Your grow room would have to be about 65 degrees all day long for the nute solution to maintain the proper temperature.

 

You simply can't have a successful, long term DWC garden without cooling the water.

[engineered_excellence]

Yes - Bingo! And in my experience the water will be 2-3 degrees higher due to the air being warmed when it runs through the pump.

 

People should not grow DWC with nute temps above 68 degreesF...period. I'm sorry to anyone if I've come across harsh or bossy in this thread, but I have talked to many people who tried and failed DWC and they all have one thing in common. They thought their water was cool enough. Your grow room would have to be about 65 degrees all day long for the nute solution to maintain the proper temperature.

 

You simply can't have a successful, long term DWC garden without cooling the water.

 

This man speaks the truth! If you don't have temps consistently 68 or lower, you will not be successful, time and time again. You might make it through a run with minimal problems and get lucky, but it won't keep happening that way. Highlander is right on point.

[kak1963]

if ur still having the prob or haven't figured it ut yet let me know.... but yes sugar big no no in dwc u dont want to feed it... u can run up to 70f but i would also run sm-90 and a lot of air i like air stones as pumps warm the water also if on cement basement floor the air can be higer then in the tubs as u have the cement transferring cold to the water ... .. also when having root prob raise ph above 6.0 like 6.3 harder for fungus to live... light to the roots wont hurt them but algae will grow and compete for food plus stain ur roots.... hope this helps some ohh pull off dead parts f mushy roots ...

[kak1963]

ps could u put up a shot of the roots...

[Bison]

Btw, if you are having heat problems in winter (which it sounds like) you likely lack enough air flow as well. A steady fresh air intake will drop your temps in a hurry this time of year and get you nice, dense buds.

[LansingAreaCaregiver]

Yes - Bingo! And in my experience the water will be 2-3 degrees higher due to the air being warmed when it runs through the pump.

 

People should not grow DWC with nute temps above 68 degreesF...period. I'm sorry to anyone if I've come across harsh or bossy in this thread, but I have talked to many people who tried and failed DWC and they all have one thing in common. They thought their water was cool enough. Your grow room would have to be about 65 degrees all day long for the nute solution to maintain the proper temperature.

 

You simply can't have a successful, long term DWC garden without cooling the water.

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, BUT....

 

 

I just want to point out that when growing in a basement or other such location, it is entirely possible for the water temps to be cooler than the room temps. If you're setting your buckets and reservoirs directly on the concrete floor, the concrete can suck a lot of heat out of the water. My water temps are consistently 10-15 degrees cooler than my room temps sans chiller (in the winter.)

[Highlander]

I don't have a dog in this fight, BUT....

 

 

I just want to point out that when growing in a basement or other such location, it is entirely possible for the water temps to be cooler than the room temps. If you're setting your buckets and reservoirs directly on the concrete floor, the concrete can suck a lot of heat out of the water. My water temps are consistently 10-15 degrees cooler than my room temps sans chiller (in the winter.)

 

I don't disagree with you. I was trying to emphasize that you can't grow successfully long term in DWC without chilling their water. I've discussed DWC with a few guys who had failed grows after they got a couple good runs in. The story is always the same. Plants drooping right and left starting in about the middle of May.

[kak1963]

I don't disagree with you. I was trying to emphasize that you can't grow successfully long term in DWC without chilling their water. I've discussed DWC with a few guys who had failed grows after they got a couple good runs in. The story is always the same. Plants drooping right and left starting in about the middle of May.

relay???? i have been doing dwc alone now for 13 years.... never have had a chiller.... goggle kak1963 u can see a lot of dwc grows of mine on other sites with out chillers...... im a person who does it not talk to peps or read about what to do.....

[Highlander]

relay???? i have been doing dwc alone now for 13 years.... never have had a chiller.... goggle kak1963 u can see a lot of dwc grows of mine on other sites with out chillers...... im a person who does it not talk to peps or read about what to do.....

 

I'm definitely interested to know how you do this. What do your water temps get up to in the summer?

[kak1963]

highest is around 72.... then i use sm-90 and H202.... and relay pump up the air to the water .... ac also helps .... see what happens is the warmer the water the less it can hold Dissolved oxygen so u need to get in as much as u can ... H202 run bi weekly with sm-90 the other week has saved my but many times little preventive maintenance goes a long way..... plus checking ur roots regularly and removing un healthy parts when needed.... would have to add for summer u need basement cement floor for dwc also clean and scrub tubs every water change with a bleach based cleaner ... many over look that part when stressed for time .... the reason i wont use a chiller is then u hook all tubs together and recirculate them then if u get a root disease u they all get it.... but i guess if i wanted i could put a heater core in each tube and daisy chain them together with one large chiller.... but i very seldom have a issue .... when i do im on top of it ...

[phaquetoo]

Gimme a break. As if I'm guessing my way through this. Would you say its a good idea to grow DWC with a nute temp of 80 degrees? How can we get a handle on this guy's issue if we don't know the temp of his nute solution?

 

I'm not guessing bacteria vs fungus. I'm saying that temperature of the nute solution will make or break DWC.

 

I'm saying that this grower needs to know the temps of his nute solution, as does anyone growing in DWC. DWC isn't a good method for anyone with severe budgetary restraints.

 

Get the temps under control, and these problems vanish.

 

 

Or are you saying that temps don't matter? Are you suggesting that the DWC grower doesn't really need to know what his nute temp is?

 

 

I'm still hoping that the OP will tell us the temp of the nute solution in each bucket and how he measured that. Only then can an experienced grower help him.

 

Why are you talking about bad meters? But while we're here, if my meter is a bit off as far as pH or ppm, my plants don't suddenly droop. Sp I'm not sure what inaccurate meters have to do with this discussion. Plants droop suddenly for about 2 reasons.....lack of water...or root damage.

 

or I just plain dont know how to do dwc, phaq it lmao, we have talked, I realy wanted to do it, everything I bought to start over is jsut sitting here, now im in dirt lol! and im still having issues, but at least I know what they are now, and it realy sucks that im missing this awsome time for growing redoing my room and getting out of the tents! you have to test your ppms and ph and temp, and if you cant right where they sit ya may as well change up some how, ya got at least 2 guys in here who do dwc listen to both, and figure it out, when i was doing it, I turned into a chemist, mathmetician, and a worrier lmao! so I just went back to what I know, i got one grow thru and then got mites and screwed up my next crop,,now im jsut waiting for a few to get out of budd and im turning this whole room into a grow room, no tents, not limited space, and no lites on in the day time accept my veg 24/7!

 

Best of luck to ya

 

Happy New Year Every Body!

 

May next yr be better than this yr for All

 

Peace

Jim

[kak1963]

or I just plain dont know how to do dwc, phaq it lmao, we have talked, I realy wanted to do it, everything I bought to start over is jsut sitting here, now im in dirt lol! and im still having issues, but at least I know what they are now, and it realy sucks that im missing this awsome time for growing redoing my room and getting out of the tents! you have to test your ppms and ph and temp, and if you cant right where they sit ya may as well change up some how, ya got at least 2 guys in here who do dwc listen to both, and figure it out, when i was doing it, I turned into a chemist, mathmetician, and a worrier lmao! so I just went back to what I know, i got one grow thru and then got mites and screwed up my next crop,,now im jsut waiting for a few to get out of budd and im turning this whole room into a grow room, no tents, not limited space, and no lites on in the day time accept my veg 24/7!

 

Best of luck to ya

 

Happy New Year Every Body!

 

May next yr be better than this yr for All

 

Peace

Jim

Jim when u want to try again just let me know .... i have taught many how to do dwc.... ounce u get it its easy as heck.... coco is real close also in growth rate and ease... and realy when i do coco i just mix my nutes ph and fill a 5 gall tub put a air stone in and set the coco pot in it and bottem feed them and refill... every so often i run pure water thru the top and check ppm and ph till down and re feed .... easy easy.... just let me know....

[phaquetoo]

Jim when u want to try again just let me know .... i have taught many how to do dwc.... ounce u get it its easy as heck.... coco is real close also in growth rate and ease... and realy when i do coco i just mix my nutes ph and fill a 5 gall tub put a air stone in and set the coco pot in it and bottem feed them and refill... every so often i run pure water thru the top and check ppm and ph till down and re feed .... easy easy.... just let me know....

 

I can picture that one, Yea ive thought about doint one, and seeing how i do on it, right now im just biting at the bit to get thru the holidays, i painted my whole house, made the lady happy now its time to turn my whole space into a grow space, and yea I know you can help me, When I got back into it after 12yrs off, I over thought every thing, I drove my self crazy and every one around me, I mixed every nute with a gallon of water to see what each does to the ppm's and the ph level, i put ice bottles in my buckets to kewl the water down, what a complain, but we did have a pretty warm/hot summer, actualy I need to think back about this summer and not feel so bad its winter lmao!

 

Im realy bumming im missing out on this time of year, my g.r is in my basement, so its not to hard to keep the temp and humidity good! this summer was hell! Plus doing it in tents the way i set it up, i couldnt even go in there and mess with the veg, had the budd lites on in the day time...yea I know duh!!!! when i switched over to pro mix it was so much easier, its kinda hard to over water, the stuff drains real well, but obviously I had something wrong or I shouldnt have gotten mites, no one goes in my g.r so they didnt come in from some one else, I dont go into any one elses, I dont even go in my c.g's g,r, I dont want to see what he has going on, as long as we got our schit straight im good!

 

This too shall pass, Ive got all good equip im ready and able I jsut need to start studing in my room and make it right!

 

Thanks Bro!

 

Happy New Year!

 

Peace

Jim

[kak1963]

any time ...... dont be afraid to ask me.....im glad ur getting things right again..... on ward thru the fog ....... KaK

Edited January 2, 2013 by kak

[kak1963]

back to this ... another big reason i can keep my water temps lower is the size.... i use 27 gal totes for 2 plants each in flower so figure 20 to 23 gal af water.... were u see most try it with 5gal bucket... if u figure the size of the root balls u get in dwc ur lucky to have 2 to 3 gal of water max.... that will heat up way faster then big totes.......theirs plenty more things id could get into to on this but the main person who started this seems to be gone for now.... maybe if more show a interest sometime ill start a help thread for hydro...have a gr8 one...

[ruan1980]

Ok so I finally get some time on a computer to post.

I checked the water temp and it read 79f. The totes were on a skid with casters so I could move them around easier. They were about 6 inches off the ground. I took the skid away and placed the totes directly on the cement floor to keep the water cool. The room temp at 11 inches from the light ranges 72-81f. Humidity is 21%.

 

I flushed the tote, and gave the roots an H2O2 bath. I also omitted the beneficial bacteria I have been using. I also omitted the zyme capsules from green planet line. Something that I did worked because she has recovered fully. I can tell that she will be a bit stunted compared to the other plants but she is alive and well. Probably added another 2 weeks to finish bloom.

 

I think the biggest issue (which may have been water temps) was the elevated skids. The air passing under them raised the temps. I think the cement floor will keep the temps cool. Also, I have to go get another thermometer. The one I used is broke and the replacement I bought doesn't work for this application.

[shredder0911]

I would like to get one of those laser thermometers, but haven't hunted or priced them yet, on a serious budget now. However, I read RC race fans use these and their suppliers reportedly carry them. I started using beneficials for the first time after I had a wilt kill off, so now very hesitant to stop using them.