Quack Or Fiction?

[gonegreenbrb]

What is up with these doctors who will write a certification for ANYONE who walks through the door with CASH IN HAND? Is this LEGAL? Will I get denied if I go to one of these traveling clinics? Doesn't the state check patient records at all? Does anyone know anything about this? It seems to be a free-for-all and any quack with a pen can get you a card.

[Guest Wayne]

gonegreenbrb, Should you ever find yourself suffering severe and chronic pain make certain that your doctor objectively evaluates your level of pain before he prescribes meds. Can't just be taking your word for it can we? Have him put you on a pain level evaluation machine that can tell you how much you actually hurt.

[gonegreenbrb]

gonegreenbrb, Should you ever find yourself suffering severe and chronic pain make certain that your doctor objectively evaluates your level of pain before he prescribes meds. Can't just be taking your word for it can we? Have him put you on a pain level evaluation machine that can tell you how much you actually hurt.

 

Just the kind of useful info I was looking for... thanks! Maybe you didn't understand the question. I am not implying that is should be more difficult to obtain a certification. It should just be legalized. Under the current system...it just seems like the standard of care is lacking and for some doctors the only concern is getting paid. If you dont't see a problem with that, then I guess you're not the person to look to for answers.

[Guest Wayne]

Ever consult with a surgeon? Once my primary care physician conducts sufficient testing to confirm I have an issue the consultation with the surgeon or other specialist is basically about risks and benefits of treatment, then you decide and proceed. Often a one visit situation. That's how my cervical discectomy and fusion went. Then my surgeon got a lot more money than I paid for my MM rec. Why would my consult and recommendation for MM be treated any differently?

[gonegreenbrb]

When you went to the surgeon, he had the records from your primary care physician. Right? He reviewed that info to make an educated, professional decision relative to your course of treatment. Follow? Would he recommend surgery simply because you "said" that you needed it? No. He relied upon the documentation supporting the diagnosis of the doctor who was responsible for your care.

 

The POINT is that some of the MM cert clinic Drs do not require ANY records. They don't even require that a patient be under the care of a primary care physician. The only documentation you need is a couple of Franklins! Any reputable Dr. would REQUIRE some kind of documentation to verify the qualifying condition under which to certify a patient for MM.

 

As it is, my perfectly healthy 18 year old son can walk in an get certified for a lifelong drug problem as long as he has cold hard cash! I guess I am the only one concerned about that.

[Guest Wayne]

My misunderstanding then. Didn't realize this was happening. Certainly appears to put a different spin on things if true. Thanks for the education.

[gonegreenbrb]

My misunderstanding then. Didn't realize this was happening. Certainly appears to put a different spin on things if true. Thanks for the education.

 

Sorry for the attitude.... but it makes us all look bad.

[xxsesimeseedxx]

Have you ever heard of anyone being put through extensive examination to be prescribed Xanax, vicoden, zoloft, darviset, asacol, prilosec, tylenol 3 or any other poisonous pharmaceutical? Most likely not. And if they WERE put through the extensive exams, two thumbs up to that dr that actually CARES enough about his/her patient. It's going to be the same thing with MJ. Some dr's are going to test you and some are just going to go off of what you tell them works for you. From what I've been reading on here and on other sites, MJ works for just about EVERYONE! No matter what we say or do, there are still going to be Dr's "handing" out MMJ certs. So we shouldnt be complaining about it. If you are a person with a condition that can be helped by MJ, then GO GET CERTIFIED. I'm pretty sure that YOU know what makes you feel better much better than the Dr. knows. And, I'm also sure that you wouldnt mind NOT going to the extensive exams that you say you should be put through. I walked into the cert center and waited for about an hour before I was able to see a Dr. She looked over my paper work, which in my opinion was barely legible due to typical dr. handwriting, asked me a few questions about my Crohns Disease and signed away! I was HAPPY to get out of there quick! Just my 2 cents. not trying to offend anyone!

[+Dizledot]

There were guy's that were bragging about how they got their three visits in to get their recommendation the day I went for mine. Unfortunately there will be some who will "work the system". Yes they make us look bad but at least we have verifiable documentation on our medical issues, not just the three visits or chart notes from three visits.

 

Dizz

 

 

[MMCN]

Crohn's is a no brainer qualifying condition and yes Drs hand out RXs for narcs all day, but not a year's worth to a teenager! I agree- the standard of care is not being met if a Dr doesn't require records from potential MM pts. The state's medical board does audit this. It's only a matter of time before it catches up with the dirty docs. They're just makin' hay while the sun's shining.

[MMCN]

There were guy's that were bragging about how they got their three visits in to get their recommendation the day I went for mine. Unfortunately there will be some who will "work the system". Yes they make us look bad but at least we have verifiable documentation on our medical issues, not just the three visits or chart notes from three visits.

 

Dizz

 

I know of a Dr who will cert pts in ONE visit without records. I wouldn't recommend him to anyone.

[Guest Medicinal Patient]

I have to agree with seeds comments. Yes I don't agree with people abusing the system set in place with this law, but most of us have used this medicine before we had a physical ailment and that doesn't make anyone a bad person. Who am I to say who deserves their rec more than another. There are conditions not yet added as a qualifying condition with this law and using medical marijuana seems to help their symptoms. Some conditions not yet added that can be worse than some of the qualifying ones imo. No one should have to suffer. NO ONE. Everyone has a right to be happy and smile and if this medicine does that then more power to the people who enjoy it. We only get 1 life and if there is safe obtainable ways to make you happy and relieve your pains and suffering of every kind that harm no one, then I don't see the problem. I do understand how sacred this law is for us who are sick and in pain, I really do. Every person who receives their rec whether we think is deserving or not its one more person added to this community and movement and this plant will someday be legalized as a result of this "push" by the people. Some conditions that may seem trivial to us is a living hell for someone else. I support the legalization of this plant.

[MMCN]

Bad doctors will only HURT the cause!

[boroboro]

Could a person really hold these two opinions at the same time?

1. Cannabis as medicine has amazing powers, both curative and palliative, for a wide range of illnesses and disorders.
2. People obtaining Michigan Medical Marijuana certifications on potentially questionable grounds are doing the wrong thing.

Personally, I wholeheartedly believe #1 to be true, and I just don't see how you can have that opinion and still look down on people getting recommendations from 'any quack with a pen', if cannabis really works for that person.

[MMCN]

I'm all for legalization, but I thought professional responsibility was the topic of discussion.

[boroboro]

From the Hippocratic Oath, widely cited as the ethical cornerstone of the medical profession:

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

 

I suppose I'm saying that a doctor can both have professional responsibility and write recommendations that some might look at questionably.

[MMCN]

"A physician shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by the Michigan board of medicine, the Michigan board of osteopathic medicine and surgery, or any other business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, solely for providing written certifications, in the course of a bona fide physician-patient relationship and after the physician has completed a full assessment of the qualifying patient's medical history, or for otherwise stating that, in the physician's professional opinion, a patient is likely to receive therapeutic or palliative benefit from the medical use of marihuana to treat or alleviate the patient's serious or debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the serious or debilitating medical condition, provided that nothing shall prevent a professional licensing board from sanctioning a physician for failing to properly evaluate a patient's medical condition or otherwise violating the standard of care for evaluating medical conditions."

[boroboro]

Well, that's a good point -- what licensing boards, employers, hospitals, insurance companies, etc. do to doctors in this position is a whole other matter than the discussion of right vs. wrong, ethical medicine vs 'quackery'. If I was a physician writing recommendations I would be quite nervous about that, unless I was confident that I had all my bases covered in terms of 'The standard of care for evaluating medical conditions'.

[MMCN]

I think that was what gonegreen was getting at. No records.... it is what it is.

[MMCN]

I'd be nervous about the ...

 

"in the course of a bona fide physician-patient relationship and after the physician has completed a full assessment of the qualifying patient's medical history"....

 

part as well!

 

Does $200 & a 5 minute face to face constitute a bona fide physician-patient relationship and/or a full assessment?

[peanutbutter]

Does $200 & a 5 minute face to face constitute a bona fide physician-patient relationship and/or a full assessment?

Yes .. according to the supreme court of the United States.

 

It's that 5 minute stuff .. Actually it only takes one second.

[MMCN]

Yes .. according to the supreme court of the United States.

 

It's that 5 minute stuff .. Actually it only takes one second.

 

Maybe it only takes one second for standing to get sued.

[xxsesimeseedxx]

 

Does $200 & a 5 minute face to face constitute a bona fide physician-patient relationship and/or a full assessment?

 

maybe not to you or to some others, but to someone who has been suffering for days/weeks/months/or years and cannot get their family dr's approval, 5 minutes is more than bona fide!

[MMCN]

I agree wholeheartedly "seed". The primary care physicians should be the ones writing the certs in the first place. But any Dr. who sees a new patient, without records, for 5 minutes and writes a certification is not providing HEALTH CARE. It's pure and simple greed.

 

Every certification contains this statement above the doc's signature...

 

 

"I have responsibility for the care and treatment for the above-named patient. It is my professional opinion that the applicant has been diagnosed with a debilitating medical condition as indicated above. The medical use of marihuana is likely to be palliative or provide therapeutic benefits for the symptoms or effects of applicant’s condition. This is not a prescription for the use of medical marihuana. Additionally, if the patient ceases to suffer from the above identified debilitating condition, I hereby certify I will notify the department in writing."

 

That's pretty good for a 5 min consult. No wonder they charge $40-$50 per minute!

[peanutbutter]

Maybe it only takes one second for standing to get sued.

OK .. I'll give you that it might not be a "full assessment?"

 

But the moment that the patient says "I'll be your patient" and the doctor says "I'll be your doctor" it's a done deal.

 

That is all that is required to form a "bona fide physician-patient relationship." According to the supreme court.