Usps Certified Failure (And A Check Cashed In Indiana)

[OverUnderThrough]

Hello all. Just felt like sharing our frustrating experience with the USPS...

 

On Nov 8, I dropped off the application at the Kalamazoo post office, Certified with return receipt. All addresses were pre-stamped by the Dr Office - no legibility concerns.

The Dr Office told us to expect the receipt within 3 days of mailing. 4 days later I checked the tracking number... the application had been sent to a sort facility in El Paso, TX!

By Nov 13, it had "processed through" the sort facility twice, and on Nov 14 it "Arrived at Unit" in Sunland Park, NM.... New Mexico!!

 

At this point I call up USPS, wait on hold 10 minutes, get accidentally hung up on, call back, wait another 10 minutes, finally get a Case number and a promise to be called back within 2 business days by an investigator. Two business days later, I get a call from a postal worker in Kalamazoo with the same info from the website - she guesses that another letter got stuck to my envelope, and that it is probably on it's way back.

 

Nov 17 it was processed through the sort facility in Lansing MI, and there it has stayed since (with an expected delivery date of Nov 9, btw)... according to the USPS tracking info. On a whim, I decided to check my bank records and what do you know, the check was cashed Nov 18 by a bank in... INDIANAPOLIS, IN????

 

A little internet researchery (and mild freak out) later, and I find out several people's MMMJ checks were cashed by a bank in Indianapolis - apparently the State of MI has outsourced it. Phew.

 

 

Technically speaking, anything sent Certified Mail must be signed for by the receiving party - hence the "certified". According to the USPS's computer system, not only was it never signed for, it was never delivered. Which makes me wonder if we will even get the Return Receipt at all.

 

 

So unless we get that Receipt, I guess we start the 20-day clock Nov 18th then?

 

Oy...

[Medcnman]

I have had a few cashed in Indy. I notced it just this past Feb. when i renewed. Good news is, I did receive my card 28 dsys later. I about fell over when it arrived so quickly! Now that LARA has the reigns, the 6 month waits are back! I hope it all works oit for ya. Keep us posted. Thanks, Medcnman.

[semicaregiver]

I don't know who LARA uses for a bank, but CHASE has a big operations center in INDY.

[WalledLakePatient]

the day the check is cashed is a safe start day for the 20 day start.

 

WLP

[Inepsa]

My return receipt was never given to me either, even though they cashed my check, and I now have my hard card.

 

I called and talked with the post office for ages, they finally gave me a return receipt about 2.5 months after I sent the package. Doesn't do me any good at that point.

[Timmahh]

Michigans general fund is held in a bank out of state. Good expample of not giving a schuitte about michigan.

 

when LARA took over MDCH, it appears the moneys collected, were moved to the general fund, instead of going into a protected account ran by MDCH specifically for the implementation and day to day running costs of the MMM Program..

 

This is just the 1st attack against the act. For those that say the state is doing this for money on any level, i ll leave you with this:

 

since started, the MMM Program as taken in roughly 10 million.

by comparison,

det schools recently Found 10mil they forgot they had in some account

 

10 million in revenue is .001% of the entire state revenue.

 

It would be akin to 1 ounce of medicine, out of a years worth of harvests for a skilled grower. Its not about the money, its about the control. please understand that, as that is were we need to focus.

[treeetopflyer]

For what its worth just about everyone I know only accepts the cashed check as proof anyway.

 

The Kazoo post office is the worst. They never delivered a certified letter to an attorney in Kazoo for me and returned it a month later stating undeliverable no one to sign for. In the mean time I had to hand delivered a second letter to make sure it got there.

 

Take your reciept back to the post office and at least get your money back.

[treeetopflyer]

Tell 'just about everyone you know' that their practice of not using certified mail as proof only hurts patients and caregivers. It takes away their rights and makes it so they even have to wait longer. Remember, the LAW SAYS, after RECEIPT OF THE PAPERWORK, not after they get paid.

 

Give patients and caregivers the rights they deserve and do this right with certified mail, either by green card back from the post office or proof from the usps web site.

 

Sorry no offence intended but telling the truth never hurts. Being forwarned is being forearmed. The folks I know are only accepting hard cards or paperwork with copy of cashed check. Thats a fact. I can take it or leave it. PERIOD. I never intended to explain the right or wrongs of anything Only the reality of the real world Of the people around me. They really dont care what the minimal requirements are. It their business and thats their requirments.

[OverUnderThrough]

Thanks for the replies! Good to know we're not alone in having trouble with the Post Office.

 

We just go the Return Receipt back today... not signed, not dated, not marked at all - it looks exactly the same as it did when I dropped it off

 

The USPS website tracking info still says "processed through sort facility," so no delivery date there either.

 

Thank goodness they cashed the check, or we would have exactly zero evidence that they received it - almost like they did it on purpose...

[OverUnderThrough]

I had read on the .gov website that they no longer are signing proof of delivery.

 

Any chance you can find the link? I'm looking but I'm not having much luck

[The Digital Nomad]

"the folks" he is probably talking about are the individuals and places that require you have proof you sent in your packet and it was processed. Those folks are trying to stay legal by making sure he is legal.

 

overunder - they said on the MDCH they will no longer accept hand delivered mail - it was too time consuming to deal with walk-ins.

 

DN

[The Digital Nomad]

You totally ignored that most of us PATIENTS don't get cancelled checks but WE CAN do certified mail. Thanks for your help making this totally inclusive for ALL of us patients. I really appreciate it.

 

You run a club too? I bet I have seen more paperwork than you ever will in your lifetime.

 

We do have to deal with certified mail, we have to examine the doctor's rec - and see if we reconise the doctor. We can examine the other parts of the paperwork and see if it matches. But - the copy of the cashed check points right to the part of the MMMAct that starts the countdown to 21 days.

 

You can accept paperwork from anyone you want, or not.

 

DN

[The Digital Nomad]

I disagree. The certified mail proves that they RECEIVED it. That's what the law asks for, not the check. The count starts after THEY RECEIVE THE FORMS.

 

Why would you support a made up rule that makes it so a lot of patients are excluded? I can't understand that. Patient advocates should strive to include ALL patients.

 

yea - sounds like you need to talk to Shuette, not me.

 

If you want to advise people to accept paperwork with just a certified mail - you should do that practise yourself. For best protection - we tell people to ask for a cashed check to prove that the application was processed and not just 'recieved'.

 

I just work here dave, I am a patient advocate - and to protect the patients and CGs - we ask for as much paperwork as possible - just like LEO might when they stop you.

 

DN

[The Digital Nomad]

It doesn't matter if they processed it. The law doesn't say that at all. We need to stick with what the law says, not make things up at a whim like Schuette does, to make things harder for patients.

 

What is even more incredibly ignorant is that cashing the check doesn't mean they processed the forms because we all know they didn't yet at that point. So why even say that? They grab the check and send it to Indiana before they ever even look at the forms. That is what they tell you themselves.

 

When they 'grab the check' - they opened the envelope. When they recieve certified mail - the envelope is not opened, its tossed in a pile.

 

Again, you seem to want to help new patients and caregivers. Many clubs or indidiuals have a right to ask for the cashed check as proof the application was processed - cashed check again means they opened the envelope and checked its contents - certified mail means you just sent it in. You can send an empty envelope certified mail.

 

My experience comes from checking IDs at many club events and having my ID checked at other club events. New patients and CG will be certainly disappointed if they are denied entry or 'transfer' because the other person just wanted to protect themselves as much as possible. Your 'wish' that the laws were better so we could just view a piece of paper and not worry about 5 years in prison, is still a dream. In the meantime, we deal with reality. Certified mailing is ok, but cashed check is golden.

 

DN

[The Digital Nomad]

You are not comprehending....

 

The law says RECEIVED. Follow the law.

 

What about all the patients like me who can't get a cancelled check to appease the tyrants that will not follow the law?

 

Again - YOUR DEFINITION of RECEIVED - lets examine it shall we. you say that MDCH just has to receive an envelope so you can count 21 days for it to be legal.

 

I (and others) say that you count the 21 days the application was 'recieved' meaning - the envelope opened, contents viewed, check 'grabbed'. Cashing the check means that MDCH has opened the envelope and is processing its contents - logic? That is the definition of received to many of us. It has hard proof that MDCH processed the application, the check was obtained from the sealed envelope.

 

The whole idea of protecting people was you should count 21 days from when the check was cashed - as that was proof the envelope was opened.

 

You want to advise people to accept paperwork that has a certified mail - a receipt that says the envelope was received, and count 21 days from that. Again, I could sent a empty envelope to MDCH and have the same certified mail receipt.

 

Its your opinion vs many people's working plan to remain out of jail. Sounds like you are pushing this opinion because YOU did not have a cashed check and someone wanted to protect themselves and denied you.

 

I am sure readers will choose the best method. Or shall we continue to convince each other?

 

DN

[mibrains]

ok guys...

 

so my opinion on this is simple.

 

a cashed check is not required, it is only better.

a certified copy of paperwork showing return receipt is not required it is only better.

 

getting doctors certification is step one.

filling out paperwork step 2

sending in paperwork step 3

state processing paperwork step 4

 

my point is simply this... until your actual plastic card arrives, and you know your permanent id number. you are only protected under section 8. affirmative defense.

the levels and complexities of the defense and the protections they offer grow every step of the way, but even once you have all papers, and plastic card from state, you are still at risk from LEO.

 

this thread is about a travesty where the post office sent mail to the wrong place. not about the legality of the phase of application completion.

 

all patients should try to take every possible step to insure they are covered by the best possible interpretations of the defense... send in check, keep copy of it. send certified return receipt (i have not in all 3 applications sent it return receipt but i understand the argument)

 

remember MMMA is only a legal defense. not a right, or a change to the PHC.

 

 

[The Digital Nomad]

Not my definition, I asked a good attorney. I don't make up rules like Schuette, and those who restrict us with made up stuff like the cashed check.

 

You still haven't provided a solution for us patients without cancelled checks, of how to deal with the cashed check tyrants. We just sit on the outside looking in?

 

You are overreaching - if you read carefully - I wrote that people can get into events, or people can help them, they have to look at the paperwork carefully. People will give preference to those who have paperwork that could keep them out of prison. Those who have been excluded had neither cashed check or certified mail - we still get those.

 

Maybe you find yourself outside looking in because of other issues.

 

DN

[The Digital Nomad]

Now that is an answer from someone who is trying to fix the problem. Thank you. Maybe if the tyrants read that they will let the certified mail help those who get left out in the cold without a cancelled check. That's how we work things out.

yea - thats working out. Nothing changed.

 

BTW the PHC prohibits any UNLICENSED person (meaning not licensed by the Feds) cannot dispense a Controlled Substance.

 

your friend posted a good point - if LEO has no MDCH registry number to call and verify - because your envelope sits unopened - its not valid yet is it?

 

Well, it was nice chatting with you all morning - it was like my very own personal conversation.

 

DN

[The Digital Nomad]

I will indulge you, you seem to have time this am.

 

Lets pretend we play for the Lion's football team.

 

I throw you the football, you 'receive' it, but then you fumble it and drop it. So - really, did you receive it?

 

In the case of showing LEO that paperwork was indeed submitted to the MDCH, and properly recieved - the cashed check was the touchdown. No fumble, no interception - it made it to the goal.

 

Play the game your way, but I am telling you how people play the game for real. I work for a club checking IDs, you seem to be a individual who was denied entry or a transfer because another person chose to protect themselves by ensuring that you had a 'touchdown'.

 

End football analogy.

 

How are the Lion's today?!

 

DN

[zachw]

I've sent three different checks to the state (two applications, one CG designation). All three were cashed within days...

 

z

[jjbigs]

I will indulge you, you seem to have time this am.

 

Lets pretend we play for the Lion's football team.

 

I throw you the football, you 'receive' it, but then you fumble it and drop it. So - really, did you receive it?

 

In the case of showing LEO that paperwork was indeed submitted to the MDCH, and properly recieved - the cashed check was the touchdown. No fumble, no interception - it made it to the goal.

 

Play the game your way, but I am telling you how people play the game for real. I work for a club checking IDs, you seem to be a individual who was denied entry or a transfer because another person chose to protect themselves by ensuring that you had a 'touchdown'.

 

End football analogy.

 

How are the Lion's today?!

 

DN

 

 

k my 2 cents! the paper work is useless unless the check has been cashed and your paper work is being processed! even at that pointe you do not have an I.d # yet most times! Back in the day when you could actualy get some one on the phone before lara! You could find out if you were in a group to be processed soon. or have been processed yet. But on that note they could not tell you your # or give your number to lets say a judge or leo!

Not until you actualy get the acceptance letter and the card in the mail! Until than leo, judges, etc have to trust that you did not get a denial letter! see that is the flaw in making the paper work good for your card, how does any one find out if you got a denial letter in the mail when you sent your paper work in 5 months ago and still dont have a card? They cash all checks as far as I know whether denied or not! so even with that cashed check and proof of delivery of paper work, its your word against leo, and in most cases like that. you lose, not them!

 

How come people cant get a copy of cashed check? it takes me a lil while to get mine from the credit union when i ask for it and i have even used money orders and have been able to get a copy of the cashed check, also i know folks who have friends write personal checks for them and get a copy for them, Im just wondering how come you can't get a copy of cashed check? you cant send cash so that cant be the reason!

[treeetopflyer]

The folks I know are only accepting hard cards or paperwork with copy of cashed check.

 

Which folks are these?

 

My bank hasn't given me copies of cashed checks for over 10 years now. I would have to show them account information. Certified mail should be the way to go so ALL patients are included, some don't even HAVE checking accounts. I would like to talk to your 'folks'.

 

I have had dispensaries, patients, and caregivers require the copy of cashed check. I have even had caregivers that would ONLY take hard cards. I’m not implying its right or that I personally agree. In fact it’s the exact opposite. I believe you should be legal the minute your doctor signs the form. Who ever heard of waiting 3 weeks for you prescription? That ridiculous but, unfortunately that’s not the real world. I also understand that a lot of people and businesses are being extra careful to be safe especially when they don’t know you. I respect their comfort zone and am already prepared to keep them at ease. It’s no big deal for me just a minor detail. I print a copy of the cashed check on line and keep it with the rest of my paperwork. Heck I've dealt with the FAA for many years one extra piece of paper is nothing after them. lol

[treeetopflyer]

It's not a laughing matter if you have your forms in and you are counting the days from when your forms were RECEIVED like the LAW says. Please pass that on to 'your folks'. I've been a patient since 12/4/08 so this doesn't effect me one bit. I grow my own for myself and my patients, I have no use for dispensaries or other suppliers. I'm arguing this for patients rights. You guys can line up all day with arguments and I will make time to argue some more for patients rights. So, what does the law say again?

 

Approve or deny an application or renewal within 15 days of RECEIVING it.

 

Pass it on..... pay it forward. Thanks.

 

In my humble opinion you’re preaching to the choir. I can tell you’re passionate in your beliefs. But, if you wish to lead people you have to put their safety first. Telling them to have everything they might need is far more prudent than telling them what they should need. You are self sustaining and don’t need deal with these other people but, the people you are advising do. Weather its right or not, does your telling people they shouldn’t need the extra proof help them if they make a wasted a trip and cannot get what they need? I don’t believe so. The boy scouts were right, Better to be prepared.

[Ionic7]

If its any consent i have never had 1 issue just puting my renewal or app in an envelope and tossing it in mail box, check was cashed 4 days after it was sent out

[OverUnderThrough]

It should have a white sticker with a 20 digit number on it transferred from the service label. If you didn't transfer that sticker then it's not going to work.

 

There is no white sticker on the return receipt. The clinic provided a pre-addressed envelope, certified form, and return receipt form. The address is stamped on them all clear as day.

 

The woman at the post office actually attached the certified / return receipt forms to the envelope -- I don't recall if there was any sticker.

 

 

 

So long as people will accept the check copy in lieu of a dated return receipt, we should be OK (I'm getting the impression from the many replies in this thread that Return Receipt is good, but check copy is better).

I will also be following up with the "investigator" from the post office on Monday.

 

Thanks!