Are We Criminals?

[GregS]

The following is text from Kormon's post where he describes getting Jeff off the hook with over 14 lbs of cut plants.

 

 

Based on the District Court’s reading and interpretation of Section 4, the MMMA’s definition of usable material, and the general definition of marijuana contained in the public health code, the court ruled that Section 4 of the MMMA only protects patients and caregivers who possess actual marihuana “plants” and/or patients and caregivers who possess “usable” marijuana. The court ruled that “unusable” marihuana is not protected by Section 4 of the MMMA; thus, patients and caregivers who possess unusable are subject to prosecution under the public health code.

 

Are we thus criminals from the instant we cut plants down until they are rendered into usable mj?

[+washtenaut]

Common sense says that there is a 'processing' step in which unusable plants are turned into usable product.  Legal authorities don't always use common sense, especially when they want to follow their personal agenda.

 

During the processing phase, a program participant is at risk from these misguided authorities.  By the plain reading of the law this should not be the case, but we all know that the authorities want arrests and not necessarily justice.

 

By the twisted interpretation above, it would be ridiculously difficult to grow a cannabis plant through to flowering, harvest it, and remain legal throughout the processing phase.

 

In fact, describe in words how one could accomplish this. 

Would it involve leaving the dead plant in the dirt (one of your 12 plants allowed) and cutting off long dead and dried buds when needed?  Recall that if you ever possess more than 2.5 ounces of plant material (wet or dry), strictly speaking, you failed to stay legal.  And, when you finally cut down the dead plant, would one have to lie in order to say that 'this 2.5 oz's of stalk that you see officer, are usable material to me'?   If yes, then you fail as lying to an officer is illegal)

[GregS]

Common sense says that there is a 'processing' step in which unusable plants are turned into usable product.  Legal authorities don't always use common sense, especially when they want to follow their personal agenda.

 

During the processing phase, a program participant is at risk from these misguided authorities.  By the plain reading of the law this should not be the case, but we all know that the authorities want arrests and not necessarily justice.

 

By the twisted interpretation above, it would be ridiculously difficult to grow a cannabis plant through to flowering, harvest it, and remain legal throughout the processing phase.

Not difficult, but absolutely impossible. I think it unlikely that the ruling can stand, but it did play in a prosecution in that it necessarily required an Affirmative Defense, and added to the hoops and to the cost of the defense. Without it, would the District Court have bound the case over?

Edited April 23, 2013 by GregS

[phaquetoo]

yea just one plant that has 6 oz's of budd on it when i cut it down, and than hang it, has more than im allowed with my pt and with her living here, Im allowed, 2.5 for me, im allowed 2.5 for her, and she can have 2.5, now where do all the sugar leaves come into play? because im gonna make em usable, in fact if you actualy rolled one with the sugar leafs you would get a buzz, that counts as usable, I try my best to get a nice amount before I start extracting anything, but I dont like to keep it at my house any longer than the day im extracting it all! and if I get caught with all the scraps I use for making my oil, im screwed, and I will deal with it myself, becuase its my fault I allowed that much in my possesion!

 

Peace

Jim

[GregS]

yea just one plant that has 6 oz's of budd on it when i cut it down, and than hang it, has more than im allowed with my pt and with her living here, Im allowed, 2.5 for me, im allowed 2.5 for her, and she can have 2.5, now where do all the sugar leaves come into play? because im gonna make em usable, in fact if you actualy rolled one with the sugar leafs you would get a buzz, that counts as usable, I try my best to get a nice amount before I start extracting anything, but I dont like to keep it at my house any longer than the day im extracting it all! and if I get caught with all the scraps I use for making my oil, im screwed, and I will deal with it myself, becuase its my fault I allowed that much in my possesion!

 

Peace

Jim

This ruling, however, equates ANY amount that is not usable with a criminal offense. You are not permitted to have a gram of unrooted plant or unusable product.

 

It cannot last, but is a great example of the stupid games that are played in the courts, and which we have to protect ourselves from.

Edited April 23, 2013 by GregS

[Dr. Bob]

The answer is no.  The ruling of the district court was corrected by the circuit court in the course of a section 8 hearing.

 

Dr. Bob

[OG Fire Beaster]

So unusable would fall under section 8. A patient would get arrested then demonstrate an easy section 8 defense, then lose all of the plant stock and meds through confiscation. Wonderful.

[Dr. Bob]

No, I don't think so but check with Michael.  Saying cut plants don't fall under section 4 I don't believe would stand review.  It was just a bad ruling by a district judge putting his own spin on things.  I don't think this will rear it's head again.  

 

CL what says you?

 

Dr. Bob

[CaveatLector]

No, I don't think so but check with Michael.  Saying cut plants don't fall under section 4 I don't believe would stand review.  It was just a bad ruling by a district judge putting his own spin on things.  I don't think this will rear it's head again.  

 

CL what says you?

 

Dr. Bob

I say you're correct.  That is an absurd result and rules of statutory interpretation and construction require a statute be interpreted in a manner that avoids absurd results.  Clearly fresh cut buds are unusable and to follow this judge's line of thinking would suggest that you can be prosecuted the moment you cut a cluster of buds from a plant.  I guess I would like to see a copy of the judge's opinion, if it was written, because this seems outlandish.  If, in fact, he ruled as indicated then I think it was erroneous.  It matters to the particular defendant but in the larger scheme of things matters not.  It doesn't set precedent and would very likely be overturned on appeal. 

[GregS]

The larger view of irresponsible conduct by the courts is that the AD is typically the instant remedy if and when we are caught up in it. It is important that we know the tenets of that part of the law in detail.

[Dr. Bob]

The AD is a life vest if you violate Section 4 and only allows you to 'tell it to the judge'.  This ruling does not support the idea we should rely on Section 8 for anything.  It was simply an overstretch of the district court and the defense attorney used section 8 as a tool to get past that bad ruling.  Don't read more into it than there is.

 

CL gave you the correct response.

 

Dr. Bob

[peanutbutter]

The following is text from Kormon's post where he describes getting Jeff off the hook with over 14 lbs of cut plants.

 

 

Based on the District Court’s reading and interpretation of Section 4, the MMMA’s definition of usable material, and the general definition of marijuana contained in the public health code, the court ruled that Section 4 of the MMMA only protects patients and caregivers who possess actual marihuana “plants” and/or patients and caregivers who possess “usable” marijuana. The court ruled that “unusable” marihuana is not protected by Section 4 of the MMMA; thus, patients and caregivers who possess unusable are subject to prosecution under the public health code.

 

Are we thus criminals from the instant we cut plants down until they are rendered into usable mj?

 

I would say that this judge feels that any mmj patient should be in jail.

 

So the outcome is predetermined. Now they only have to figure out why.

[thecannabiskid]

Good luck explaining to leo, that any part of a cannabis plant is "unusable" most of the time they will confiscate everything that could be evidence and tell you "tell it to the judge", the prosecutor may find you inside your sec.4 protections, but most of the time that will be AFTER leo has killed your plants and confiscated everything. 

[Dr. Bob]

The best way to handle this is to sue for lost plants in cases where it is clear you are within limits.  Same for the 'we can't return cannabis, even if you were legally allowed to have it'.  Make them compensate.  

 

Perhaps our legal folks can come up with a good protocol to make this happen.  I would think it would involve posting something at the grow, putting up a 'stated value' etc.  Set them up to take a hit in civil court for damages.

 

I think this would be a good project for our attorneys.  I put medical protocols together all the time, even making my follow up forms available to any practice that wants them.

 

Dr. Bob

[outsideinthecold]

I must add I'd like to see someone get compensation simply to watch those who claim an unrooted cutting is a plant and then value any plant confiscated for the local press at one-thousand dollars each pay that much for each clone.

 

Stay safe, be discreet and don't take chances. No one wants to be the last casualty in a lost war.

Edited April 24, 2013 by outsideinthecold

[pic book]

Stay safe, be discreet and don't take chances. No one wants to be the last casualty in a lost war.

 

Bromidic, bro.

[mibrains]

nobody wants to be the last...

 

nobody wants to be the first either...

 

truth is.. nobody wants to be a casualty of war ever... from the first to the last... the pain is real.

 

bottom line...

 

to be persecuted for cannabis in the United States of American should be a crime. 

 

we the people voted and decided cannabis has medical value...therefore it cannot possibly fit the definition of schedule one...

 

did someone say it has to have scientific proof.. FDA approval.. any other type of scrutiny to be able to be considered having medical value? 

 

no... (don't get me started )

 

a definition has been obtained, and agreed upon by popular vote...

 

Cannabis has Medical Value... period .... . . ....   ..  .   .

 

the methodology that brought us to get to that definition is ultimately immaterial.

 

usable....

 

definition must again be considered.

 

my "brainstorming session" tonight....might have left me thinking about...

 

even when wet and green.. freshly cut... on the day of harvest... at the moment of harvest... it must be considered "usable" to be saved...

 

otherwise why would you save it?

 

seed, stalk, or unusable root...

 

it might not be readily combustible... and able to be utilized by the preferred method of ingestion....

 

however..

 

it is usable...

 

it is able to be juiced... or consumed raw in any number of available formats...the moment it is "harvested"

 

so the question becomes... is it ready?  for my preferred method of ingestion...

 

not is it "usable" ? ? ??

 

and now.... i must reconsider my stance on weight limits.. and my recommended approach to "drying fresh cannabis" as it pertains to preparing it for consumption.

Edited April 24, 2013 by mibrains
rephrase

[Dr. Bob]

The problem with considering wet cannabis as 'usable' is that it is heavy and easy to go over weights.

 

I think it goes back to common sense.  We can't say that wet cannabis is usable because of the weight issue.  We can't say it is not usable for a prolonged period of time to suit our needs- by this I mean we are not safe if we have 40 pounds of 'curing' cannabis with 'ready dates' well into the future.  This comes in to play with outdoor grows- I don't think harvesting 72 plants in the fall all at once and then taking that large amount of cannabis, packaging it in weekly containers, and writing 'cure' dates every week until the Spring will protect us.  Especially if one container from our fall harvest is ready in a month, yet another from the same harvest wont be ready for 4 months.

 

In this case, the reasonable approach would be to look at the wet plants, roughly estimate how much that would represent dry, and see if it is reasonable.  One thing that could be helpful is to get an on line database going here that we could reference.  How much did the wet plant weigh, how much did the dry, usable material weigh when all was said and done.  That way, if this comes up in court, we can counter the prosecutor with DATA not estimates.  Yes the guy had 14 pounds of wet plants (make sure they removed the root ball), based on our data, that would have resulted in x number of ounces of dry, usable marijuana.  

 

But we have to remember, thou shalt not estimate what can be measured.  If they want to claim 14 pounds represents y pounds of marijuana (or count all of it) demand they properly cure and trim the plants, then MEASURE the weight of the resulting usable dry marijuana.  Then question the moisture content, quality of the trim, etc with your experts.  Typically prosecutors are lazy.  They will take the plants and weight them- root ball, dirt, pot, everything, and try and get the biggest number they can.  Don't let them.  Follow the definitions of the MMMA.

 

Dr. Bob

[peanutbutter]

The problem with considering wet cannabis as 'usable' is that it is heavy and easy to go over weights.

 

I think it goes back to common sense.  We can't say that wet cannabis is usable because of the weight issue.  We can't say it is not usable for a prolonged period of time to suit our needs- by this I mean we are not safe if we have 40 pounds of 'curing' cannabis with 'ready dates' well into the future.  This comes in to play with outdoor grows- I don't think harvesting 72 plants in the fall all at once and then taking that large amount of cannabis, packaging it in weekly containers, and writing 'cure' dates every week until the Spring will protect us.  Especially if one container from our fall harvest is ready in a month, yet another from the same harvest wont be ready for 4 months.

 

In this case, the reasonable approach would be to look at the wet plants, roughly estimate how much that would represent dry, and see if it is reasonable.  One thing that could be helpful is to get an on line database going here that we could reference.  How much did the wet plant weigh, how much did the dry, usable material weigh when all was said and done.  That way, if this comes up in court, we can counter the prosecutor with DATA not estimates.  Yes the guy had 14 pounds of wet plants (make sure they removed the root ball), based on our data, that would have resulted in x number of ounces of dry, usable marijuana.  

 

But we have to remember, thou shalt not estimate what can be measured.  If they want to claim 14 pounds represents y pounds of marijuana (or count all of it) demand they properly cure and trim the plants, then MEASURE the weight of the resulting usable dry marijuana.  Then question the moisture content, quality of the trim, etc with your experts.  Typically prosecutors are lazy.  They will take the plants and weight them- root ball, dirt, pot, everything, and try and get the biggest number they can.  Don't let them.  Follow the definitions of the MMMA.

 

Dr. Bob

 

I don't want to agree at all.

 

Wet weight counts as zero weight currently. Now you want that included in our weights?

 

I will fight that every step.

 

I suppose we could work to get dirt balls and stalks included in our weights also.

Edited April 24, 2013 by peanutbutter

[Dr. Bob]

I don't want to agree at all.

 

Wet weight counts as zero weight currently. Now you want that included in our weights?

 

I will fight that every step.

 

I suppose we could work to get dirt balls and stalks included in our weights also.

You did read it right?  You know, what I wrote, because in light of that your post makes no sense.

 

Dr. Bob

Edited April 24, 2013 by Dr. Bob

[thecannabiskid]

The problem is that the Cannabis plant is far to versatile to label any one form of the plant as "usable", the term "usable" in my mind implies that the product is ready for medical use (since that is indeed the end goal when producing cannabis for medical use). That said, the amount of Cannabis produced before being processed into a usable medical product, may vary depending on the product that the cannabis is intended to produce. If i was only going for dried smokable flowers i could probably get by with only growing and harvesting 5 or 6 plants at a time, but even when going for dried flowers, one might over produce and pick the most medical parts of the plant and trash the rest. Most of the time i'm growing for a combination of concentrates; and smokable flowers, and that's where things get tricky. Most of the time I only grow and harvest 12 or so plants at a time, but my facility was designed and built large enough to grow and harvest all that i'm allowed by law(in terms of plant count) in case I need a large amount of "unusable" cannabis to produced a strong concentrate, in order to help treat a patient with something along the lines of advanced cancer... but as i said before, good luck explaining something like that to a leo.

[thecannabiskid]

I agree that the cure until date thing wont fly; its likely to be viewed as a way to circumvent the law, that said cannabis is best IMO after its been cured for no less then three months.

[GregS]

"Usable" is specifically defined in the act as the dried leaves and flowers, or any mixture or preparation thereof, but does not include seeds, stalks, or stems. Any wild imaginings about what is and is not usable that disregards that definition is useless.

[Dr. Bob]

We are discussing how to deal with the concept that wet plants are somehow not protected under the act because they are not 'usable' and not 'growing' and trying to counter this and other tricks the prosecutor may pull on patients.  

 

Clearly if the case involved dry, 'usable' marijuana as noted in the act, it would have simply been weighed.  Let's keep the discussion to the topic and come up with some strategies.  

 

Since you interjected, perhaps you could share your thoughts on my idea of the database of wet vs dry weight or come up with a suggestion of your own?

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

The problem is that the Cannabis plant is far to versatile to label any one form of the plant as "usable", the term "usable" in my mind implies that the product is ready for medical use (since that is indeed the end goal when producing cannabis for medical use). That said, the amount of Cannabis produced before being processed into a usable medical product, may vary depending on the product that the cannabis is intended to produce. If i was only going for dried smokable flowers i could probably get by with only growing and harvesting 5 or 6 plants at a time, but even when going for dried flowers, one might over produce and pick the most medical parts of the plant and trash the rest. Most of the time i'm growing for a combination of concentrates; and smokable flowers, and that's where things get tricky. Most of the time I only grow and harvest 12 or so plants at a time, but my facility was designed and built large enough to grow and harvest all that i'm allowed by law(in terms of plant count) in case I need a large amount of "unusable" cannabis to produced a strong concentrate, in order to help treat a patient with something along the lines of advanced cancer... but as i said before, good luck explaining something like that to a leo.

Excellent post.  What kind of strategy would you employ if you were growing for oil?  Have you come up with any ideas on how to protect the amount you would need?  My only thought for a 5 patient caregiver would be to take 15 ounces and make an ounce and a half of oil at a time, clearing the amount and dispensing the oil, then repeating the process the next day.

 

Dr. Bob