Hi gg, saw this article today and thought you would appreciate it as it deals with naturally aging bud and what happens to the terpenes as it ages. I don't know enough say one way or the other, but I wondered if/this might affect the make up of ND SAP?

What Does Drying Buds Do to Terpenes?

http://www.hightimes.com/read/what-does-drying-buds-do-terpenes

Thanks medmanmike!

Too bad they didn't do one with a sealed jar for 4 months. I would assume that the paper would absorb some of the terpenes which would simply evaporate away. Whereas in a sealed jar the terpenes would be trapped with the buds.

Either way, there is an enormous difference between the oil being naturally decarbed vs. heat decarbing. Not sure if it is the terpenes or CBDs or even something else.

For some reason with naturally decarbing the THC flows through the body and the effects last longer. Must be the activation of certain terpenes during long term storage in a sealed jar or something else.

Thanks again!

hi gg,  I hope you had a great Christmas and have something planned for tonight.  I had some minor nasal surgery yesterday so we're staying home and doing popcorn and a movie!

It's been a while since I updated you on my experiments, so here's some observations etc.

I started doing extracts this past summer:  Coconut oil canna butter; RSO, QWISO, QWET Sap; Added (heated 280º for 60 min) Decarbed bud in caps this fall.  Here's some of my experiences, which may be unique to me, the quality of the products or just in how i'm consuming them.

Commonalities:  for the oils/tar, I put an amount equal to a small grain of rice if it's "solid" or a drop(s) about the size of a large wooden, kitchen match head if it's liquid, directly into the mouth or in a 00 or 0 cap. For the butter, I put 1 milliliter in a cap. I find 1 milliliter can be too strong, so I often cut a cap in half.  With  the decarbed bud, I've experimented with ⅛ gram or ¼ gram in a cap trying to find the sweet spot.  I kinda of modeled this after your effort with taking a joint and cutting it into quarters or thirds.  Do you know what your joints weigh?  Mine come out around ⅓ gram and 'usually' about all I can smoke at one setting is ½ of the joint.

Overall use/reactions:  this is generally true for all of the products:  If I take one of the above on an empty stomach, it hits me pretty hard within an hour. If I wait and take it after eating - either immediately or up to two hours later, it often takes 2-3 hours before I feel anything (at least feeling a buzz, there may be some pain relief and a general sense of well-being.)  Early in the trial, if I didn't feel anything after an hour/hour and a half, I would take another, which was then too much.  Trying to find the right dosage and the right timing remains an issue.

My oils and saps are now at least 120 days old.  I don't have enough experience with them to know how much they've improved by letting them sit.  You may recall that some of my early oils were made with trim so they may not be that potent to begin with. 

The most recent QWET Sap - shown in the pic I posted earlier in the blog is being weird.  Meaning, I wrapped it in tinfoil as it was too think to put in a syringe or pour into a glass vail.  The tinfoil wrapped sap was stored with the fold up, in a glass jar, in a drawer in the 60-65º basement. When it turned 100 days I looked at it and some of the sap had found its way out of the folded tinfoil and had pooled on top of the foil or on the glass itself.  Strange. The foil was laid flat with multiple folds, so I don't know what was going on to get it to move.  NOTE:  I happened to open a vial of a previous oil the other day and it "popped" when taking the cap off and there was a noticeable cloud or fog that quickly disappeared. Obviously, there is some kind of chemical reaction taking place.  I think you've experienced this too?

I'm also finding that all of the extracts give me an "up" so there have been a few nights when I did't get much sleep :-(  Yes, most strains are hybrids, Sativa dominate, but even the Cannatonic that is supposed to be 1:1 with THC/CDB gives me this effect.  With the oils and decarbed bud, I've tried extending the process time so there is more degrading to CBDs for a more sedative effect, but.

Having said this, on occasion when taking one it knocks me out so I sleep pretty good.  Why the different effects from one time to another, I don't know. My physical state?  Mental state?

When ingesting one of the above, I'm working on the timing for taking a second dose and find that the second dose never seems as powerful as the first.  This isn't making sense to me. Logic tells me that it would either boost or extend the "high", but the second dose isn't all that noticeable.  Have you ever experienced this?

I will often vape some bud shortly after taking a cap to obtain some relief before it kicks in.  I've also noticed that when the effects of ingesting begins to taper off, a couple of vapes will kick it in gear again.  This makes me think that ingesting a second cap in lieu of vaping should do the same. Thoughts?

Recently, I was going through my oils. One, was very thick and lumpy - probably too much bud remained.  Anyway, I was cleaning up the edge of the bottle and washing off the eye dropper as it was clogged up.  As I got oil residue on my fingers and tools, i.e. toothpick, I licked it off.  Didn't think I took too much, but....About three hours later, it hit me so hard, that while on the way to friends for the evening I had to turn around and go home (wife was driving).  There was no way I was going to be able to mix with a group for a birthday party!

How is the ingesting of raw (ND Bud) going for you? I'm finding it convenient, but its hard to get the dosage right. 

That's it for now.  I'm getting ready to switch the current grow to 12/12.  This time I'm doing one PineApple Trainwreck and one Gold Leaf http://shop.ilovegrowingmarijuana.com/collections/indoor/products/gold-leaf-marijuana-seeds I'm using the Mainling aka Manifold method of pruning.  Both looking really good.

Everything you have mentioned is pretty much the same as I have experienced. Obviously you are working with quality material and are doing things right.

You mentioned opening a vial and it "popped". I have experienced the same. My analogy is that there is a chemical reaction going on while the oil naturally decarbs. The chemistry change is the creation and release of CO2. That is how the oil in the foil found its way out! It does not surprise me, due to the decarbing process, even though it does not make sense. I have taken the cap off a 1/2 full vial, let it sit on the table while I was doing something else and within about 5 minutes it just started bubbling over. I lost a lot of oil on that one! That was under the 100 day mark, but close. So it climbed right out of the vial onto the table!

I am not sure yet if we should be "burping" the vials every week or so or just leave them alone until the 120 day mark. Either way, we must be aware of the potential for an overflow! Wise to have a clean plate, foil, or other glass item under the vial while opening in order to reclaim any losses.

If I had to guess, my joints weigh about the same as yours, about 1/3 gram. A large joint would be 1/2 gram. I only ingested the naturally decarbed buds for about a week and then documented the experiences. After that I went back to the ND Sap because I prefer it. Just much easier for me to just eat a drop or two every day or every other day. It seems that with the naturally decarbed buds, that your experiences have exceeded mine. I really appreciate you posting about it. Wild Bill told me that with eating the ND buds, taking the dose about 1/2 before a meal seemed to work best. In his case, it was heat decarbed, so there could be a difference.

I will agree that it is difficult to find the sweet spot with the naturally decarbed buds.

The only thing you mentioned that I have not had the same experience is the second dose of oil. If I eat a second dose of oil in the same day I will get blasted and I usually regret it. There are many factors to be considered that could be causing the effects.

Regarding taking a second cap in lieu of taking a couple of vapes, well, for me, I think it would kick me in the butt too hard. Worth the try though. I have noticed the same, hit the vape or a couple of hits from a joint, it kicks the buzz back in.

I have had my patients report to me that their pain meds (norco, vicodin, etc.) when they are taking the oil and eat a pain pill, they don't feel the effects of the pill, it seems to drastically increase the effects of the oil. It seems that the oil prevents the euphoria from the pills, but increases the THC effects. With larger doses of oil, they are unable to take the whole pill because they get too high.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

for sharing your thoughts and experiences! It is of great value to the blog and a great way to reflect back on our experiences!

Happy New Year!

gg, came across a QWET recipe that is similar to yours, but uses a little heat-in a method that I hadn't seen before. Cold wash, but with an oil bath to decarb. Thought you might be interested (if you haven't already seen it).

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/cannabis-oil/217726-how-make-concentrated-cannabis-oil.html

Just been awful busy with family and the weather. I will be doing that extraction comparison with the 200 proof as soon as I can.

I have 2 ounces of Querkle. One ounce will be extracted with the 192 proof polish vodka, the other with the 200 proof KleenXtract.  

I have it all ready, just a matter of getting the time to do it.

Hi gg, time for another update.  I keep a jar of alcohol (Everclear) wash.  From time to time I'll dump my AVB in to it.  Everyday or so I'll give it a shake or two.

Recently, wife and I were defrosting our basement freezer and I found a gal bag of trim and sugar leaf from the last harvest.  I dried this out, chopped it up and threw it into the wash jar.  I had also recently finished a vile of a poor quality QWISO and could no longer scrape anything out of it, so I washed the vile and the dropper and threw that into the wash jar too.

After letting it sit for a bit and shaking it daily, I strained it off and then purged it into my ss pan on a coffee warmer with a large washer. Also had a fan blowing across it.  I started off with about a cup + of liquid and when it was reduced about 50% I added two tablespoons of Coconut oil to it. (I've not found it easy to manipulate the extractions - moving from the pan into vials, etc. without making a mess, so I thought I'd give the C oil a try and it's easier to work with.)

The evaporation process was slow (by design) so I would turn the warmer off at the end of the day so I wouldn't dry it out.  In the morning, the C oil was hardened with some liquid still on top.  Smelled and tasted like Everlcear, so I turned the warmer on and continue the evaporation process.  When it looked like the alcohol was gone, I again let it cool. This time it was completely hardened with no liquid on top.  I warmed it and using a (one of those long plastic squeeze things-a-ma-jigs-whose-name-I can't-remember-at-the-moment) I filled the larger half of a "0" gel cap.

I figured that giving the materials - wash, old avb, trim, etc. that it wouldn't be to potent. To be sure, I cut a cap in half the first time.  didn't get much out of it, but given it was the end of the cap that wasn't filled so there was little material in it, the lack of potency didn't surprise me. The second time, I took a full cap.  Mistake!  Way to much - lots of anxiety, a feeling of needing to hold on to the (chair) arm rests, etc.  The next day I did a half cap, cutting it so there were somewhat equals amounts in both halves.  Still to much!  So now, I'm cutting them into 1/3s which gives me a pleasant buzz that lasts for about 4-5 hours.

Like previous experiments, I find that the second dosage never seems to be as strong.  I don't understand this.  It a quantity thing?  Tolerance?, frame of mind?  My next step is to take the 2nd dosage sooner.

I have to say I was very surprised at the potency of this oil.  I might add I also added a tsp of lecithin to the coconut oil to help with the emulsification as well as the absorption.  Maybe that had something to do with it.

I continue to experiment. Have you tried the Kleen-Xtract yet?  Here's a couple of pics of the current crop.  PineApple Trainwreck on the left, Gold Leaf on the right, then PT, then GL.  Both at day 17 of 12/12.

I am so behind on everything I don't even have anything flowering at the moment. Deaths in the family and just the regular chaos of winter! Trying to get another vehicle going EXPENSIVE.

I have the stuff all in the freezer and 2 Os of Querkle to compare with. All is ready, just too wiped out right now!  Other stuff has been taking priority. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining. I should be able to meet my deadline with my patients, well, maybe a bit late. But hey, two times in 6 years ain't bad!

As soon as I solve some minor issues I will get to the KX. Just don't like rushing things.

I can fully relate with the experience you had. The stuff probably had a lot of CBN. Heck, the stuff that was in the freezer may have even become naturally decarbed? Not sure if that can happen in the freezer.

With my oil, using the best buds I have, the second dose is always stronger. Especially with the ND oil. Three doses per day of the RSO is mind blowing for me. I can't even imagine what three doses of the ND oil would be like!

Cool! Thanks for sharing. Nice looking plants there too!

New update with ND Sap. I highly recommend to read it over. I don't have it mastered yet, but have been having full success and there are others that wonder why.

I had a conversation with someone on another forum, Skepler at RIU. Take this into consideration before reading the ND Sap walk through. I don't want to see anybody wasting their material.

This person had some old QWISO that was like a thick tar that should have naturally decarbed, but it did not fully decarb. He pretty much confirmed it and we discuss possibly why in this conversation. My oil is more liquid, like honey, because all three batches I made, grain alcohol was involved and I deliberately left some alcohol. Even though the first batch was QWISO, it was winterized with grain alcohol. Here is a link to the thread if you are interested in the entire conversation. http://www.rollitup.org/t/stepped-on-hash.860162/page-2#post-11321146The conversation with Skepler begins on page 2.

To answer your question, when it comes to naturally decarbed oil, I am pretty much a beginner. I would have more experience under my belt, but it has been quite a rough winter so far. I have not been able to do any testing.

Yes, I did at least 3 separate natural decarbing oils. Yes, all three oils were somewhat liquidy. You have provided the most feedback on a natural decarbed oil. Someone else had some old BHO lying around, I am not sure if it was putty, or shatter though, they did not say. I do know that they don't typically decarb it as they are more into smoking it. In other words, it did not fully decarb for you, they were not able to provide me that information, all they could say is that they got a buzz. I have a feeling their BHO was not fully decarbed, I come to that conclusion after speaking with you.

Obviously there is more to the natural decarbing than what I initially thought. At first I thought like you, that it was the thickness. After I saw dried buds naturally decarb, I just assumed most hash oils would naturally decarb. I guess I would have to agree with you that the viscosity probably is why yours did not fully decarb over that period of time. If it were my oil and my product, for example, my first batch of QWISO that naturally decarbed for me, that is when I learned of it, I made a large batch and was not able to consume it all within 100 days vaping it. If I would have tried to decarb my QWISO after it had naturally decarbed, it would have ruined it. Obviously there is something going on here. There is something else to consider. My QWISO was winterized with grain alcohol. The other two batches I made were made QWET, all grain alcohol. Extremely big difference between the two. The winterizing made it more potent and a super clean high that I had never felt before, but the non winterized oil made with grain alcohol gave me a buzz I never had for the first 24 hours, it was like my mind felt more in control. Then it gave me an additional 24 hours, which no other oil had given me, which felt more like the RSO. I wanted it to be all organic. I doubt it, but maybe the grain alcohol has something to do with it. That still leaves to question why the buds decarbed. Then again, the buds are not dense like a thick tar. It does make sense it being more liquid aiding in releasing the gas. When I open up a vial for the first time that has decarbed, it reacts like a shaken soda can, foams right over the top. This happened three times before it was fully decarbed. My QWISO that was winterized with the grain alcohol, I deliberately left a little alcohol in it so it would mix better with the PG USP for the vaporizer. This was so I could mix without using heat. If I didn't like it, I knew I could just allow the QWISO to dry more and the alcohol would be gone.

I like your term gassing, first time I heard that. I never would have respected that term until I started using vials for the ND Sap. Every time I crack open a vial it would release some pressure all the way until it is fully decarbed, then it no longer builds up pressure. At first I thought it had to do with the small amount of alcohol left in it and the temperature swings in the house causing the pressurization. Later I realized it was due to the decarbing. I believe it to be primarily CO2 and decarbing. After it was fully decarbed, it never released pressure again. Even when I had to add alcohol to it because it got thick and the dropper would no longer suck it up.

Another thing that can be considered, all three times I made the ND Sap, the oil became pressurized due to the gassing and being sealed. With the QWISO, first time around, it blew the ends of the syringes off after it started to decarb. I lost quite a bit of oil on that one!

Now that I think about it, there are a lot of times I have had old premium buds in jars that I never got around to using. Hadn't opened them in a while. When I crack the jar open it would release pressure. I thought that was just due to temperature swings. Now I attribute that to the decarbing. That is something the oil and the buds that have naturally decarbed have in common besides the 3 to 4 month wait. They have all pressurized. I don't think that has anything to do with it, but it could.

The next batch I do, hopefully sooner than later, I have everything I need except for the spare time, I am going leave more alcohol and will try burping it weekly and document when the pressure begins to build up and if it decarbs sooner. My stuff was like a thick oil, honey. This next time I will keep it more liquid and shake it daily. See if it will decarb sooner.

I believe you are right it has to do with the thickness. I am going to find out for sure. Also, if I just wanted to use isopropyl, assuming that you are right, don't want to winterize and lose medicinal properties, don't want to add grain alcohol without winterizing because it can chunk up and separate, I would just store it liquid with iso, store it for the 100-120 days, after it decarbs, then allow it to finish the purging, or air drying.

You say low heat extraction process. Tell me more about that. I am not familiar with that process you used to make your product.

Did you use 99% iso?

How did you store the tar like QWISO? Syringe, vial, jar? Basically, was it sealed air tight?

Your tar like QWISO, is it sticky or is it more like putty, not sticky but mushy?

I am just curious.

Thanks, you have given me something to think about!

Two more questions. What is your opinion on why dry buds will decarb over a 4 to 6 month period but your oil did not?

What quality of material did you use to make that large quantity of hash that you had for such a long time? Premium buds, shake, leaf?

I made RSO for 4 years straight and I fully mastered it, over the 4 years I have learned to half decarb it with heat then wait 2 to 6 weeks for it to finish naturally decarbing. I would have 5 years of making RSO under my belt, but when I sampled the naturally decarbed oil, I had no intentions of making RSO again, unless it was an emergency to treat someone. I 100% assure you no heat whatsoever, fully naturally decarbed, blows the doors off any other oil that was heated that I have tried. My patients would attest to that. Some of my patients have tried many different oils, considering they are cancer patients that have been around the block.

Thanks again!

I am starting to look into other essential oils. I am a complete newbie in that area though, have much to learn. I know there are a lot of other plants out there that offer powerful medicinal properties like marijuana. I plan on doing more research and looking into more products. I am also interested on how they may effect an RSO buzz. For example: My ND Sap has the natural cannabis terpenes and it has a strong effect on the buzz and for some weird reason it makes the same potency buzz last twice as long. I wonder if there are other plant terpenes that can offer the same benefits when taken with RSO. Here is a link to frankincense http://articles.mercola.com/herbal-oils/frankincense-oil.aspx

Hopefully I will be adding more to this in the near future.

I notice when I was reading about the frankincense it has terpenes. They make high note that certain terpenes are capable of passing the blood brain barrier which makes them special. Passing the blood brain barrier, the way I take it, means it will continue to flow through the bloodstream for a longer period because it doesn't get stuck. This is coming from an ignorant view, I don't yet have a full understanding. For example: they claim that THC passes through the blood brain barrier. I agree, but also disagree, because when I smoke pot, oil, or vaporize bud or oil, I don't believe it is passing through the blood brain barrier. The reason why is because I only get a 2 to 4 hour buzz. If I smoke twice as much it does not make the buzz last any longer. However, when I eat the oil, I get a 24 hour buzz and if I increase the dosage, I can get up to a 72 hour buzz. Is the heat from vaping or smoking causing damage to the THC to where it can no longer pass through the blood brain barrier? Or, is it possible that the heat is destroying terpenes and the THC can't pass through the blood brain barrier when the terpenes are destroyed due to the heat? I wish I knew. I read an article of why the buzz lasts longer eating the oil vs. smoking. I have to disagree with the article. I believe it was written by a scientist. They mention that it is because the oil goes through the liver and enters the bloodstream differently. Where smoking causes it to go through the lungs and enters the bloodstream differently. Basically the difference is digestion vs putting it directly into the bloodstream through smoking. I disagree with that for a couple of reasons. Like when using suppositories. When I take a dose of ND Sap, I just let it dissolve under my tongue so it is going through my bloodstream through tissue or sublingual. What has really made me start thinkging of these questions and doubting other answers I have read is, because of the experience I have had with the ND Sap oil containing a large portion of terpenes, if not all. Why does that oil stay in my bloodstream twice as long or the buzz last twice as long? I believe it is narrowed down to 1 or 2 reasons. Terpenes that can pass through the blood brain barrier assist the THC or it is because of the no heat process, the THC has seen no heat whatsoever. I am leaning to the terpenes due to one of my test results on making the QWISO with no heat then winterizing with grain alcohol. Yes, it made the buzz different after it naturally decarbed. Yes, it made it more potent from the winterizing, but it did not allow the buzz to last twice the length even though it was not heated. It is really too bad our government prevents us getting together and getting the answers. They are intentionally stopping progress when it comes to our health. Such as, food labeling, pretty much everything on the label is worthless and meaningless to me. Like the saturated fats. Some saturated fats are good for you and others are bad. The label does not specify what type of saturated fat is present. Plant fats vs. animal fats, there is a big difference between the 2. Like coconut oil for example. It is high in saturated fat, but it is a good form and passes through the body more quickly than animal fat. Also, salt or sodium, they pump it into our heads that it is bad for our bodies, causing heart problems, that is only half true. Half truths to me are lies, deception. Pink Himalayan salt, I believe is good for you. I exceed the daily allowance intentionally, I like my pink Himalayan salt.  It is full of essential minerals and naturally has iodine. Also, it has not been refined which removes many of those essential minerals. Many people have a deficiency in mg. I think the best way to get your mg is through pink Himalayan salt. Too bad when I go to a restaurant they don't offer the pink Himalayan salt. Pink Himalayan salt is a sea salt that has been mined out of the mountains and has additional minerals compared to sea salt because it is aged and has gained more minerals. It is a lot more potent that the typical sea salt. This is what I mean by the food labeling being worthless. It is deceiving and causes us to believe that the healthy forms of salt and fats are bad for us. Without it, I believe we have deficiencies and are more prone to sicknesses. Read for yourself about Pink Himalayan salt. http://fitlife.tv/10...himalayan-salt/

When I stared looking for it, I found it at my local Meijer store and it is affordable too! It is almost like they want us to have deficiencies and be mislead.

Another example why I plan to educate myself about essential oils.

HI gg, sorry I haven't gotten back to you recently.  Real busy right now as we're leaving for Costa Rica on Wed for two weeks.  I'm in week 7 of flower and working on getting things set up for my helper to take over.  The helper is my son, who is on the verge of getting a job in Nashville, so he may be leaving while we're gone, so I need a back up for the back up!

There will be a lot of downtime on the beach so I may be able to give you a thoughtful response while I'm gone. 

I have had some feedback from someone I trust that the KleenXtract (200 proof ethanol) is much like 99% iso when it comes to the evaporation. That should solve our water problem, at least during the humid months, considering we are not using any heat.

Like you, I have been too busy to do any experimenting. It has been a rough winter that's for sure!

You have fun out there on the beach while I am here stuffing my wood stoves and shoveling snow! LOL  Oh, and working on my grow with a broken back!! (Not really broken, just very sore)

Take care and be safe!

Well, I finally began the comparison with 192 proof polish vodka vs. KleenXtract.

I don't think I will be using drinkable grain alcohol anymore. I am really liking the 200 proof. I can't stand water being in my product. It is a pain to deal with. The 200 proof KleenXtract seems to have solved that problem. It makes my product 100% organic. I haven't sampled it naturally decarbed yet, but going by the looks, there is no comparison, KleenXtract is the way to go! If it cost a few extra bucks, I am more than happy to pay it, especially if I am using my top notch buds.

I just recently took a few doses of RSO. It has been about a year since I have taken any. Now that I have compared it with the RSO having been out of my system completely, I do prefer the natural decarbed oil. It is much more comfortable of a buzz and suits me much better. For other people, that may not be the case. Now that I tried RSO again, it seems to cause me a lot of anxiety. When I was taking it everyday for so many years I was used to it. Now that I have fairly compared each, I am going with the natural decarbing. Also, now that I have compared high proof grain alcohol with 200 proof KleenXtract, at this time I believe I will be sticking with KleenXtract. I will not know for sure until the product has naturally decarbed though.

It appears that the KleenXtract has solved the water issues that were a problem for me as well as a few other things. That is just going by looks at this point.

This was a response to somebody that was interested in the difference between the 192 proof vodka and 200 proof KleenXtract.

The 192 vodka or 190 everclear, I am all done. Unless I am using it to clean up materials. The white milky effect at the end of evaporating, I cannot have that. It is a potential for mold. Knowing that, I get rid of the water then add fresh alcohol. Now that I know the KleenEtract, 200 proof organic, ethanol does not have the water effect at the end of evaporating, even less than 99% iso, I will be using the KleenXtract from now on for any oil made with the intention of ingesting.

I have to admit there are 2 other options that may be preferred by others when it comes to alcohol. Using 99% iso for the extraction. It does provide a more clean product, great for vaping or smoking and it is less expensive. Then the second use for 99% iso would be to make a pure THC oil. When the 99% iso oil is done, then winterize with the 200 proof. 192 vodka will work for the winterizing, but I think I prefer the 200 proof. After winterizing it removes a lot of the medicinal properties with the exception of the THC. Keep in mind I am always referring to using bud for the extractions. Leaf and shake may not offer the same results. Naturally decarbed after winterizing is different than any other product I have used. A super clean visual buzz.

The naturally decarbed ND Sap compared to RSO I have noticed large gains in medicinal properties with the Sap and the buzz is so much more comfortable you can't compare it, at least for me. Everybody does have their personal preference. Now that I am not used to RSO and recently tried it again, it is almost like a powerful synthetic buzz. I am all for the no heat procedure. It is just so much more smooth.

I am not in it for the looks anymore. I am in it for all of the medicinal properties. The pictures I showed of the ND Sap I just made were scraped off the side of the dish, no sediment. I wanted to keep some of the sediment because some of the terpenes sink to the bottom and some float on top. You can see it in the solvent during evaporation. Now that I know, I have been paying more close attention to this. It is worth paying attention too if you are in it for the medicinal properties. Don't worry about the looks whether it comes out brown or dark.

Anyway, you can see the difference right here in a super dry atmosphere with my wood burners cranked up. The milky looking one was done with 192 proof. It is not as bad with the air being more dry, but it is still bad with water. You can see the other cup there is no milky water on top that is the 200 proof KleenXtract. Because of this, I will be using KleenXtract from now on.

Yes, my product would be far more pretty if I only used 99% iso, but it would not be as safe to make, it would not be as safe to ingest, and I do not believe it would carry as much medicinal value. Just my opinion.

In my opinion all three alcohols have a purpose. For ingesting I am liking the KleenXtract the best so far. I have heard of other people obtaining 200 proof ethanol from other companies besides KleenXtract.

This is the oil in storage. This is my first time keeping it in a full liquid state. I am hoping it will help the decarbing. I will follow up when I open the caps and how soon it decarbs.

I am also posting this here for you MedmanMike!!

A copy of an entry I posted on another blog.

gg, - just screwed up!  Typed you a long post, then uploaded photos and lost the post!

Thanks for the info.  I'm a little confused about which method KX or ISO produces "a comfortable visual buzz and is very potent, but not an uncomfortable intensity. and "One is longer lasting and the other is really enjoyable visual effect for a good 24 hours. The non winterized method lasts at least 48 hours if not longer, that is taking it everyday." 

Also, just harvested my 3rd grow.  1600W CFL for veg and added a 90W LED UFO for flowering.  Two strains:  Pineapple Trainwreck and Gold Leaf (I posted some pics of these earlier).  Total dried weight:  just under 6.5 oz!  That's the good news.  The bad news - I'm way over limit! LOL!  Time to make some oil!  Here are some pics.  1st PT, 2nd GL, 3rd GL cola, 4th the fruits of my labor!  Thanks again.  PS Ordered KleenXtract today. 

The iso concentrate winterized with grain alcohol offers the comfortable intense visual buzz. It is more of a pure THC. It requires grain alcohol to winterize the finished iso concentrate. The grain alcohol added to the concentrate very liquid, then placed into the freezer. The grain alcohol caused separation so it becomes more of a pure THC. Filter after a couple of days in the freezer then evaporate.

Using the KX without winterizing I believe produces a more medicinal product, but not as intense of a visual buzz.

I like it both ways.

Got it!  Thanks.  Another question:  When you say "very dry" (the bud prior to extraction) what do you mean?  Do you force dry it, or just let it naturally dry in the open air?  I store my buds in mason jars like you and my RH runs between 50-62%.  I use Boveda 62 packs.  This particular harvest was overdried - had some issues controlling the environment in the dry room, and is currently sitting at about 52% in the jars.  Buds are a little crispy on the outside.

An earlier test of putting the buds in the freezer with the lid off, lowers the rh to about 30%.  Is this dry enough from your perspective?

I only air dry, but have to be careful, especially in the winter. I don't force dry. I hang the entire plant until ready to trim, I like to trim while the leaves are supple though, it is much easier that way. Then when I have them trimmed I will let them sit and air dry, usually a few days depending on how dry it is in the house. I will then put them in the jars and burp them daily. This will get them more dry than what I prefer for smoking. They will be somewhat crispy.

I never checked the humidity level in the jars with the buds.

I have always preferred to make my oils in the winter due to the low humidity from my wood burning stoves. I like the buds to crumble at the initial shaking from the first wash or rinse. Yes, it does create more sediment, but that is the way I prefer it. I always get the feeling that when the buds are moist and don't completely crumble that I am not extracting all of the THC. Just a feeling though, don't have any proof of that.

One of these days, just for kicks, I will try making oil (ND Sap) using frozen fresh bud. Just want to see if the fresh buds have any noticeable amount of increase in terpenes. If it is a big difference, I am sure it will be noticed. If I ever get around to doing it, I will update.

I think if the buds are already dry, there would not be a need to leave the lid off while in the freezer. I consider the buds to be dry enough if you can crumble it by hand to roll a joint, no need for scissors. I don't like smoking it when it is that dry, but a good way to test the dryness for oil making.

I came across this website through facebook. I have not made any purchases yet, but at first glance, they have a lot of essential oils and natural products that I am interested in.

http://www.pattersonsquared.com/

I want to reduce the amount of poisonous products that I use in my home. Toothpaste, air fresheners, window cleaners, soaps and shampoos, it goes on and on. These things are laced with poisonous chemicals. Chemicals are different than essential oils. Chemicals stay in the body and it is difficult for the body to expel them. Organic essential oils and other natural products are safer and more healthy to use. The body expels them quickly and efficiently. When used correctly, natural products and essential oils are good for your health. With all of the cancers and other illnesses that have been rampant in our world today, it is a clear sign to me that it is all of the chemicals and polluted way of life most of us have been taught to live. The more research I do, the more chemicals I find in everyday products. America has the most chemicals and considers the most dangerous chemicals to be safe, even in our food! Chemicals and convenience seem to go together.

Something that has become more of a concern to me it how the chemicals in our everyday products can be inhaled or absorbed through the skin and soft tissue. I did not realize how intense this could be until I started using essential oils, coconut oil, and ND Sap. I found that these items can absorb through the skin very easily and have strong effects. This has alerted me to how dangerous harsh chemicals can be, in even the smallest amount.

I will be purchasing products from Patterson Squared. Kim Patterson seems to be quite knowledgeable and provides a lot of information about the products offered. There are a lot of items that I want, but will have to start small and get one thing at a time and build up my supplies.

Just want to share this information. This is a good place to start in changing over to a more healthy lifestyle. I will try other companies too and follow up with product reviews.

Again, I highly recommend to purchase the book Modern Essentials, Sixth Edition. Knowledge is power. This book has been very helpful for me. A big thumbs up on how easy the book is to use, especially in regards to individual oils and their medicinal potential and properties.

Hi gg, time for an update.

First, received my order of KleenXtract! Buds and KX are in the freezer. I hope to make a batch this week. Regarding the dryness of the buds. I left them out on parchment paper for a couple of days and they got good and crumbly, so I'm hoping they will disintegrate once they're washed. Btw, thanks for the recap of how you make the ND Sap.

Second, I tried a little experiment: I had some Tincture that I made last fall. Never really liked it as the alcohol was too strong (Everclear). I also had some AVB and trim that had been soaking in EC for a few weeks that I shook occasionally. I strained this and added it to the tincture and than evaporated the alcohol on my coffee cup warmer (with a washer). I started with about a pint of liquid and ended up with three 4 dram bottles about 3/4 filled each. The consistency is about that of an oil, olive, etc. Concerned that the pressure might build up as we've both experienced before, I left the caps loose and stored them in the dark. I'll let them sit for a bit and will report back. I can't attest to the potency, but it is the cleanest, smoothest oil I've produced yet. Time will tell.

Question: when you make Sap, do you ever let it completely dry out (slowly, no hear, of course) and then just scrape up what's left, or do you always leave it runny?

Will also let you know how the Sap turns out.

Can't wait to hear your results Mike!

I keep my ND Sap liquid at all times. During the process, before, and after. I believe that the terpenes could potentially evaporate as it dries out. Terpenes are very delicate. They can also be fumy like alcohol.

Here is a little update from me.

My latest batch made with the KX. I believe it is getting done a little sooner because I left it in more of a liquid state. Probably 70% solvent 30% oil. One of my vials holds 8 to 10 grams, but I only have it half full. I kept it more liquid so I can shake it. I think it may help speed up the decarbing process, but not sure yet. I am sure of this, keeping it more liquid it can still overflow very quickly! You have to be extremely careful burping the vials. I think the oil is almost done because it is not building up very much pressure any more. As soon as I feel it is done, probably in a couple of weeksI will leave the cap off and allow it to evaporate more solvent off. When it gets to the thickness I like, I will then add a bit of 190 proof grain alcohol so I can use a dropper for dosing. The alcohol helps it to quickly dissolve in my mouth and does not leave the sticky nasty tasting stuff. It has been so much more convenient doing it this way, .especially with the ND Sap. The terpenes also help it absorb into the tissue. Terpenes are amazing and I believe that is where most early medicines were derived from.

HELP! gg, I must be doing something wrong. I'm in the process of making some sap and the product is looking weird to say the least. Take a look at the picture. This was made with one oz of my best bud and KleenXtract. I followed your method to a "t", but it looks like it was made with EC (your water issue) and looks very similar to an earlier picture of mine and one of yours in a recent post(low quality oil). It also has this sheen on the surface that is full of tiny droplets of oil. On the sides of the bowl (which I just cleaned before the pic) and the bottom, there are gobs of a gooey substance that is the color and consistency of warm caramel. There is also indications of water on the surface. [Thought: I'm beginning to think that the water might be coming from the air, either from absorption or a difference between the alcohol/oil so that the water vapor in the air "sticks" to the surface, sort of like dew on the grass in the morning.]

I just don't get it. Your recent pic showing your oil/sap so nice and clean-dark, but clean looking doesn't look anything like mine. Can you give me any advice as to what may or may not be going on? One other thing: I can't get the gooey stuff to remix/blend with the KX. Suggestions on how to thin it out?

Well, it appears I've lost my tool bar so I can't figure out how to post the pic. You can find it by searching through my gallery - medmanmike.

I don't see a link to your picture, but can offer an opinion.

Off the top of my head I can imagine this. Maybe it wasn't really the 200 proof or somehow it got water in it, I doubt it, but that is a possibility. I have had that happen to me with everclear and I didn't know what was going on until I tasted the alcohol. I don't recommend that with the 200 proof though because that would be dangerous. Next would be the buds being moist and you extracted out the water from the buds or possibly just the environment being humid. I have not tried the KX in humid weather yet. I have heard that the 200% can absorb water from the air. Just my opinion here, I don't have a lot of experience yet. With my 4-g strain, which really surprised me because it is usually my cleanest oil making strain ended up being my more dirty strain when using the grain alcohol. It puttied up and I had to dilute it and filter it a couple of times with a paper coffee filter until it would stay in an oily state rather than putty. This could be a strain issue with a specific solvent. You may want to dilute it and filter it through a paper filter.