Bogus Paperwork

[The Digital Nomad]

Since Bogus paperwork has been noted in use by LEO, and was already known to be used by unsavory people to obtain medicine under false pretense - we should talk about it!

 

Really in legal sense - we do not have authority to judge paperwork - we have no way to verify it.

EVERY PART OF THE MDCH PAPERWORK CAN BE FORGED. You can cut and paste the back of a Cashed MDCH check, and use it as the back of your check, just date the front of the check to correlate with the stamp on the back.

 

You cannot legally contact the Doctor's office to verify a patients paperwork unless the patient signs a information disclosure form - nothing will be done until this form is signed.

 

A person can also present you all the paperwork he/she submitted to the MDCH, and its cashed check - AND STILL BE DENIED. They just will forget to show you the denial letter they recieved. This paperwork was submitted to the MDCH, check cashed, but they were denied because the doctor denied the rec, criminal check came back for a CG, or ?

 

If you are presented with a MDCH MMMP card - VERIFY the CARDHOLDER's IDENTITY. Anyone can present another person's MMMP Card as it has no photo ID. You must use a valid, legal photo ID to confirm the cardholder's identity. Again - anyone can present another person's MMMP card to you, verify that IS the person.

 

The best way to sign on a new patient - is to know the patient. It is best if you walk the person through the steps to become legal, and send in the paperwork yourself- certified mail. If anyone is pushing you to bypass your verification, they are putting YOU at risk.

 

Good Luck, take your time to know your patient..

-DN

[thanks2]

Thanks for the good post soundless, it is nice to see you back. Criminal behavior is tough to deal with. You can order a perfect copy of a state ID or driver's license from china over the internet. Forgery is a billion dollar a year crime and we do not seem to be making any headway on the issue. But, we do have to protect ourselves from criminal behavior, especially when LEO is committing the criminal behavior. In reality, it is unstoppable, but there has to be things that can be done to make the situation better.

[MIMEDGROW]

What if you call the office of the certifying physician and ask if the person is a patient of theirs. If they are a patient then the office will not be able to divulge information about the patient. If they have no record of the patient then their paperwork is most likely bogus.

 

just a thought.

[Beartek2]

How about they fill out a report take a couple pictures and wait for conformation, if it don't check out then they can bust them or not.

[bobandtorey]

i was told yesterday and in the news it was a forged card

[+Silverblue]

I'm glad to see this discussion. If there's a way to detect phony paperwork & cards, it would solve a LOT of problems. The cards should have a photo ID. For some reason I thought they did. I don't see how someone with a photo ID could pass as someone else, though I'm sure it's possible and can happen if the ppl look similar enough. There's a few other things that would work with the photo ID, or maybe even without it, but I need to think that one through before sharing the idea, the problem with all this is it'd raise the already costly fee for applying. With all the money they're making on this, the system should be much more efficient.

 

Sb

[rockinlespaul]

Since Bogus paperwork has been noted in use by LEO, and was already known to be used by unsavory people to obtain medicine under false pretense - we should talk about it!

 

Really in legal sense - we do not have authority to judge paperwork - we have no way to verify it.

EVERY PART OF THE MDCH PAPERWORK CAN BE FORGED. You can cut and paste the back of a Cashed MDCH check, and use it as the back of your check, just date the front of the check to correlate with the stamp on the back.

 

You cannot legally contact the Doctor's office to verify a patients paperwork unless the patient signs a information disclosure form - nothing will be done until this form is signed.

 

A person can also present you all the paperwork he/she submitted to the MDCH, and its cashed check - AND STILL BE DENIED. They just will forget to show you the denial letter they recieved. This paperwork was submitted to the MDCH, check cashed, but they were denied because the doctor denied the rec, criminal check came back for a CG, or ?

 

If you are presented with a MDCH MMMP card - VERIFY the CARDHOLDER's IDENTITY. Anyone can present another person's MMMP Card as it has no photo ID. You must use a valid, legal photo ID to confirm the cardholder's identity. Again - anyone can present another person's MMMP card to you, verify that IS the person.

 

The best way to sign on a new patient - is to know the patient. It is best if you walk the person through the steps to become legal, and send in the paperwork yourself- certified mail. If anyone is pushing you to bypass your verification, they are putting YOU at risk.

 

Good Luck, take your time to know your patient..

-DN

 

Good to see you back on this site brother.

[Guest thequietone]

Glad to have you back Soundless, I hope to see more of your posts in the future.

[Herbeezhydro]

Since Bogus paperwork has been noted in use by LEO, and was already known to be used by unsavory people to obtain medicine under false pretense - we should talk about it!

 

Really in legal sense - we do not have authority to judge paperwork - we have no way to verify IMG_1439.JPG

EVERY PART OF THE MDCH PAPERWORK CAN BE

 

 

 

 

 

 

FORGED. You can cut and paste the back of a Cashed

 

MDCH check, and use it as the back of your check, justdate the front of the check to correlate with the stamp

on the back.

 

 

Good to see you back soundless

 

 

 

 

You cannot legally contact the Doctor's office to verify a patients paperwork unless the patient signs a information disclosure form - nothing will be done until this form is signed.

 

A person can also present you all the paperwork he/she submitted to the MDCH, and its cashed check - AND STILL BE DENIED. They just will forget to show you the denial letter they recieved. This paperwork was submitted to the MDCH, check cashed, but they were denied because the doctor denied the rec, criminal check came back for a CG, or ?

 

If you are presented with a MDCH MMMP card - VERIFY the CARDHOLDER's IDENTITY. Anyone can present another person's MMMP Card as it has no photo ID. You must use a valid, legal photo ID to confirm the cardholder's identity. Again - anyone can present another person's MMMP card to you, verify that IS the person.

 

The best way to sign on a new patient - is to know the patient. It is best if you walk the person through the steps to become legal, and send in the paperwork yourself- certified mail. If anyone is pushing you to bypass your verification, they are putting YOU at risk.

 

Good Luck, take your time to know your patient..

-DN

[Herbeezhydro]

Good to see your back soundless

[bobandtorey]

I am sure you are all aware of all of the recent medical marijuana raids by the Oakland County Sheriff's Department arresting patients and caregivers with valid state-issued cards from the Michigan Department of Community Health.

[The Digital Nomad]

I want you to verify this - so far sources admit they used shady paperwork.

 

If LEO obtains a MDCH card under false pretense (ie - they did not intend to use it for the MMMP) its not a valid card. An LEO cannot get a fake driver's license from the real DMV. He can use a fake one obtained from a fake cardmaker, there is a difference. People getting greedy is what is making people do business without the courtesty of knowing their patient - I mean really!

 

People need to verify information before they share it - otherwise it is just FUD - Fear, Uncertainy, and Despair - exactly what politicans want to create from this action. They want you to think the MDCH MMMP is so flawed - you need the gov's help to fix it. Think about it - create fear so people will do nothing...

 

-DN

[+RevThad]

Blueberry hit the nail on the head.

 

The standard is "reasonably realistic", and is the same defense that applies to anybody that sells tobacco, alchol, and any activity which an ID is used for verification of eligibility.

 

From the couple of cases I have read on this very subject the same example is used to show what is not reasonably realistic. "If a 20 something year old presents an ID stating their age as 99, most folks could reasonably deduce the ID is not real, or at the very least not belonging to the presenter."

 

Practice your due diligence, ask for cards(paperwork) and an ID to verify they are who they say they are. This is enough to protect your rearend if need be. It also give you another oppurtunity to cover your backside when you check the name from the photo id to see if that person is a police officer. Unless they are faking state identification cards (the picture kind) as well, and then we are getting into another law that they are breaking.

 

As for somebody that has received a denial letter for their registration by the MDCH. One only look at the other portions of the law, like were they seen by a doctor and received a letter of recommendation? If they have they would still be considered a patient that is allowed to use medical marijuana under the act, they just aren't registered.

 

Anyways, that is just a couple quick thoughts on the matter. I wish you all the best.

[The Digital Nomad]

Blueberry hit the nail on the head.

 

The standard is "reasonably realistic", and is the same defense that applies to anybody that sells tobacco, alchol, and any activity which an ID is used for verification of eligibility.

 

From the couple of cases I have read on this very subject the same example is used to show what is not reasonably realistic. "If a 20 something year old presents an ID stating their age as 99, most folks could reasonably deduce the ID is not real, or at the very least not belonging to the presenter."

 

Practice your due diligence, ask for cards(paperwork) and an ID to verify they are who they say they are. This is enough to protect your rearend if need be. It also give you another oppurtunity to cover your backside when you check the name from the photo id to see if that person is a police officer. Unless they are faking state identification cards (the picture kind) as well, and then we are getting into another law that they are breaking.

 

As for somebody that has received a denial letter for their registration by the MDCH. One only look at the other portions of the law, like were they seen by a doctor and received a letter of recommendation? If they have they would still be considered a patient that is allowed to use medical marijuana under the act, they just aren't registered.

 

Anyways, that is just a couple quick thoughts on the matter. I wish you all the best.

 

 

AD will only work if the 'patient' shows up in court with you! A denial letter can be sent by the MDCH because the DOCTOR denied the rec, or does not even exist - thus, no AD.

 

A cop photo ID really? You do know cops have normal driver's license right? To tell people that a cop will be stuck presenting an ID that says "COP" on it is dangerously misleading. Cops do have police ID, but they will not be showing it to you.

 

 

Why not only do business with patients you know? Build a network of trustworthy people, not a bunch of customers.

 

-DN

[dutch&Dutchess]

a doctor's signed recommendation is all anyone should need as that is the crux of the AD.

NO one wants to rely on the AD SOO we have this strawman crap thrown up by the desperately corrupt prohibitionists "no card, no meds"! like a freakin parrot

FICH DICH BOUCHARD

see ya 9/8

[The Digital Nomad]

again - for AD to work, you'll need the cooperation of the 'patient' to show in court.

 

if someone is shady enough not to have MDCH paperwork - can you trust them to show up in court for you?

 

AD works best when its only for your case - you use AD to support YOUR defense as a patient - not as a CG or patient selling meds to another.

 

-DN

[+RevThad]

AD will only work if the 'patient' shows up in court with you! A denial letter can be sent by the MDCH because the DOCTOR denied the rec, or does not even exist - thus, no AD.

 

A cop photo ID really? You do know cops have normal driver's license right? To tell people that a cop will be stuck presenting an ID that says "COP" on it is dangerously misleading. Cops do have police ID, but they will not be showing it to you.

 

 

Why not only do business with patients you know? Build a network of trustworthy people, not a bunch of customers.

 

-DN

I didn't say that a cop would be showing a photo ID that says cop, what I said was that if you are diligent in verifying a patient or caregivers identity, one would ask to see their state issued photo id (to compare to the name on the paperwork or their registry card). With a real name to go by, one could find out if that person is employed by law enforcement with a few other checks later on. Even if they are a cop, one is still protected by the "reasonably realistic" standard for verifying that they are qualified to use under the act.

 

A doctor that denied the rec within 20 days of issuing it, would seem to be an issue with that doctors ethical practices. As the only way a denial letter would come from MDCH based on a doctors recommendation is the doctor is not properly licensed, or the doctor changed their mind in that first 20 days. Either of those things happening would be grounds for other actions, and should not be held against a caregiver or patient acting in good faith.

 

I am not suggesting folks throw common sense out the window, or to act like the corner drug dealer and just "sell" to anybody. I am just saying that we don't need to make patients suffer because of paranoia or fear of crooked cops targeting legal patients and caregivers. If we allow LEO to use these tactics, aren't we allowing them to push everybody back into dark corners and the shadows? They are attempting to use intimidation to change the law, without any say from the people; that simply is above their paygrade, and is not acceptable.

[+RevThad]

again - for AD to work, you'll need the cooperation of the 'patient' to show in court.

 

if someone is shady enough not to have MDCH paperwork - can you trust them to show up in court for you?

 

AD works best when its only for your case - you use AD to support YOUR defense as a patient - not as a CG or patient selling meds to another.

 

-DN

So let's just chop a few more sentences out of the law as they are no longer needed?

 

Why would somebody help a patient that doesn't have at least a doctor's recommendation? No paperwork at all or no card = no meds from me (except in dire situations). Just trying to keep from mixing apples and oranges...

[The Digital Nomad]

So let's just chop a few more sentences out of the law as they are no longer needed?

 

Why would somebody help a patient that doesn't have at least a doctor's recommendation? No paperwork at all or no card = no meds from me (except in dire situations). Just trying to keep from mixing apples and oranges...

 

No chopping done - try to apply AD when your 'patient' doesn't show in court to support your plant count.

AD applies to qualified patients, not a CG that thought he had a qualified patient.

 

-DN

[bobandtorey]

The AD is solid but they will not need it they had real cards i think the AD is for people that have no card it's just what i think

[peanutbutter]

again - for AD to work, you'll need the cooperation of the 'patient' to show in court.

 

if someone is shady enough not to have MDCH paperwork - can you trust them to show up in court for you?

 

AD works best when its only for your case - you use AD to support YOUR defense as a patient - not as a CG or patient selling meds to another.

 

-DN

 

Soundless .. may I point out that the AD protects both registered and unregistered patients AND CAREGIVERS.

 

Think .. what is an unregistered caregiver?

[The Digital Nomad]

Soundless .. may I point out that the AD protects both registered and unregistered patients AND CAREGIVERS.

 

Think .. what is an unregistered caregiver?

 

The Law says "primary CG" as the inclusion to the Affirmative Defense,

 

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-333-26428

 

"Sec. 8. (a) Except as provided in section 7, a patient and a patient's primary caregiver.."

 

So are you protected if you are just 'one of the sources of medicine' for a patient? Or how do you prove you are their 'primary CG' if you only sold them one bag just once?

 

So I 'think' an unregistered CG is going to have more trouble than he needs.

 

 

If we are running a compassion based program in michigan, we should know who we are working with.

There are very few dire situations where we are placed in everyday, to transfer medicine to another - many of these transfers that make people nervous are because they are quick and amoung strangers. How can we say we are doing compassionate work, when people don't know who they are dealing with? Many times, I or others meet with the patient several times before any transaction. We get to know you, we check with your spouse or family - to see if they will support you. We educate you to be legal, and it would be wrong for us to act illegally with a new patient while doing that.

During the process of getting to know the person you can begin to honestly evaluate your patient - as a caregiver not a drug dealer. I would rather build a timeline to present to court in my defense if I get arrested over a patient I signed up through the MDCH - than just to say "Hey man, I looked at the paperwork and checked his ID".

 

Just sayin'

 

-DN

[peanutbutter]

The Law says "primary CG" as the inclusion to the Affirmative Defense,

 

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-333-26428

 

"Sec. 8. (a) Except as provided in section 7, a patient and a patient's primary caregiver.."

 

So are you protected if you are just 'one of the sources of medicine' for a patient? Or how do you prove you are their 'primary CG' if you only sold them one bag just once?

 

So I 'think' an unregistered CG is going to have more trouble than he needs.

 

I understand that nobody has given much thought to exactly what an unregistered caregiver is. And I think it is something that needs to be explored.

But the fact remains, unregistered caregivers were were specifically asked about on the ballot the voters said yes to. They are also mentioned in the AD section of the law.

 

 

If we are running a compassion based program in michigan, we should know who we are working with.

 

Wisdom indeed. Even more so when law enforcement is willing to commit countless crimes to deprive us of our rights.

 

There are very few dire situations where we are placed in everyday, to transfer medicine to another - many of these transfers that make people nervous are because they are quick and amoung strangers. How can we say we are doing compassionate work, when people don't know who they are dealing with?

 

Does a doctor do all of that? If I saw someone in pain, and just by touching them, make the pain go away, I wouldn't ask what the family thought. And my response time would be pretty quick.

 

Many times, I or others meet with the patient several times before any transaction. We get to know you, we check with your spouse or family - to see if they will support you. We educate you to be legal, and it would be wrong for us to act illegally with a new patient while doing that.

 

During the process of getting to know the person you can begin to honestly evaluate your patient - as a caregiver not a drug dealer. I would rather build a timeline to present to court in my defense if I get arrested over a patient I signed up through the MDCH - than just to say "Hey man, I looked at the paperwork and checked his ID".

 

Just sayin'

 

-DN

[UrbanFarmer]

Since Bogus paperwork has been noted in use by LEO, and was already known to be used by unsavory people to obtain medicine under false pretense - we should talk about it!

 

Really in legal sense - we do not have authority to judge paperwork - we have no way to verify it.

EVERY PART OF THE MDCH PAPERWORK CAN BE FORGED. You can cut and paste the back of a Cashed MDCH check, and use it as the back of your check, just date the front of the check to correlate with the stamp on the back.

 

You cannot legally contact the Doctor's office to verify a patients paperwork unless the patient signs a information disclosure form - nothing will be done until this form is signed.

 

A person can also present you all the paperwork he/she submitted to the MDCH, and its cashed check - AND STILL BE DENIED. They just will forget to show you the denial letter they recieved. This paperwork was submitted to the MDCH, check cashed, but they were denied because the doctor denied the rec, criminal check came back for a CG, or ?

 

If you are presented with a MDCH MMMP card - VERIFY the CARDHOLDER's IDENTITY. Anyone can present another person's MMMP Card as it has no photo ID. You must use a valid, legal photo ID to confirm the cardholder's identity. Again - anyone can present another person's MMMP card to you, verify that IS the person.

 

The best way to sign on a new patient - is to know the patient. It is best if you walk the person through the steps to become legal, and send in the paperwork yourself- certified mail. If anyone is pushing you to bypass your verification, they are putting YOU at risk.

 

Good Luck, take your time to know your patient..

-DN

 

The state could very easily send out an embossed letter of approval and/or some sort of difficult to forge paper certificate like you get your birth certificate on and that would stop a large portion of the forgery.

[peanutbutter]

To my knowledge, there's no protections for unregistered caregivers... at all. In the Kiel case, the analogy that was drawn was about deer permits... You can't simply argue that you intended to get a deer permit, or that you applied for one, or that you're expecting one... You need a deer permit to bag a deer.

 

I'm not a lawyer. I would always be cautious about legal theories posted as opinion by laymen. And I certainly would interpret these laws as conservatively as possible if it matters to you.

 

LOL the most conservative: Marijuana is completely illegal for any purpose. Never smoke, touch or even look at it.

 

If we all agree and abide by that no one will go to jail for marijuana. And we will no longer have any law at all.