How Do You Feel ?

[wingnut]

JERUSALEM, Israel (AP)

 

 

 

Here we go again, Please bring Johnny home Mr. President . WE MISS HIM OR HER. No more war! We can not afford any more.

 

 

And your name shall be called Israel, for you have struggled with G‑d ... and prevailed (Genesis 32:29)

 

There are times in my life when I really feel resentful towards You. I feel so much anger for the anguish You cause.

 

After all, all that I ask for is security, tranquility, happiness and love. Is that too much to ask? It would be so easy for You to provide this to me!

 

Yet, time after time, You throw insurmountable challenges my way. You tantalize me with periods of calm and happiness, only to abruptly disrupt them with new dark and terrifying storms.

 

It is true that, in retrospect, I often discover that I've grown from these challenges. But all too often -- in fact, more often than not -- this growth is not at all apparent to me. I'm left instead with a deep sense of insecurity, wondering how You could have forsaken me like that, haunted by the fear of the next impending storm.

 

It is true that, many times, I perceive the positive benefits of these trials. But, believe me, even then, the benefits do not erase the prior pain. The hurt that You had inflicted on me was real. So was the fear, and the tears that fell from my eyes.

 

Knowing that You are all-capable, how do I justify the suffering that You inflict on me? Knowing that You certainly could have somehow arranged it that I should reap the intended benefit without needing to experience the pain, how can I understand, much less explain, Your actions?

 

And, it isn't merely the question of me. My anger and resentment is amplified and magnified by the many others around me. I see their suffering and hardship, their wants and needs, and I have no answers.

 

Perhaps if You answered me You would tell me that I shouldn't focus on the lacks, but on the good in our world. I should be grateful for the many positive things in my life -- the love that surrounds me, my family, my health -- the abundant goodness that You have blessed me with.

 

For some reason, though, the taste of that sweetness makes me drunk for more.

 

And the love You shower upon me makes me need the goodness more. It's not just for me now, but also for my loved ones. My passionate protectiveness for them makes my needs -- our needs -- all the more pressing.

 

So, those are the times that I feel resentful towards You. My mind cannot justify why You allow it to happen. Why don't You shield me, them, all of us, from the rampant misery? From the wanton need? Why is the very fabric of our world threaded with so much unwarranted pain and adversity?

 

As the fears churn inside me, as I awaken in the night tossing and turning with anxiety, my mind screams: Why? Why must it be so?

 

But is it not then, in my deepest moments of despair, when I feel Your abandonment most keenly, that I find myself rising to communicate with You?

 

Isn't it when I feel most torn and alone that I most ardently seek You? Is it not when my anger and resentment builds that I feel Your presence most strongly and find myself reaching for You?

 

Indeed, perhaps the anger highlights our closeness. Perhaps the resentment reveals the depth of our bond. Perhaps my ability to question You, to feel so intensely towards You -- even if, at times, against You -- shows just how much You mean to me. Perhaps it is because Your goodness is so apparent to me, because Your power and omnipotence are so real to me, that my emotions are so aroused.

 

And maybe that is why in my deepest moments of despair and abandonment I also feel Your comfort.

[AmishRnot4ganja]

Earth: The battle field between good and evil.

 

Man: The arbiter who decides what is good and what is evil.

 

God: The one who watches and rarely interferes.

 

Jesus: The arbiter between Man and God.

[Letterhead954]

Fantastic article. I can relate.

 

Amish... I'm not sure of your point, but man is not the arbiter of good and evil, God is. Jesus is the mediator between God and man, not arbiter. And, according to the Bible, God is very active in our world, though how could we perceive most of that? Should He stop all evil? The only way to do that would be to eliminate mankind. He has a much better plan than that.

I hope this addresses your thought.

[donnachris]

Wow...that makes you think now doesnt it. Its exactly how I feel at times.

[mrd]

"I don't wan't to walk and talk about Jesus i just want to see his face" Rolling Stones.

 

 

why doesn't God directly show up again? Sure isn't for want of prayer.

 

How come we do not get to meet those who died?

 

Seems like a bunch of ancient people got all the interesting stuff.

 

Why does the bible stop when it does? Not like nothing happened since.

 

"Any technology sufficiently advanced will seem like magic."

 

If there are fundamentalist of different religions how can everyone be right?

Prove the existence of God without referencing the bible.

 

Why does God allow the totally innocent to suffer?

 

Any answers that contain

"Its a mystery" are totally insufficient.

[Letterhead954]

"I don't wan't to walk and talk about Jesus i just want to see his face" Rolling Stones.

 

 

why doesn't God directly show up again? Sure isn't for want of prayer.

 

How come we do not get to meet those who died?

 

Seems like a bunch of ancient people got all the interesting stuff.

 

Why does the bible stop when it does? Not like nothing happened since.

 

"Any technology sufficiently advanced will seem like magic."

 

If there are fundamentalist of different religions how can everyone be right?

Prove the existence of God without referencing the bible.

 

Why does God allow the totally innocent to suffer?

 

Any answers that contain

"Its a mystery" are totally insufficient.

Good questions. If you're willing to put the time in, the answers to your questions are in the Bible. If you don't have the time, I can boil it down for you. If you're interested, let me know.

Some things are a mystery, either because God has not chosen to reveal the answers or because we're incapable of understanding them. Who can fully understand God or His ways? We can only go by what He has revealed to us. Prove God's existence? Jesus claimed to be God and did many miracles individually and in front of crowds, yet many who saw those miracles still refused to believe. The problem is not that there is not enough evidence, it's that people refuse to believe what evidence there is. Why? Because that would mean that God exists and has a claim on their lives. Many people don't want that. If someone doesn't want to believe in God, no amount of evidence would convince them.

[MightyMightyMezz]

I am happy to say I agree we need no more wars. I do think it is ironic to see that sentiment expressed in this thread because that is not possible when we are so strongly influenced by Israel, the Jewish supremacist state. Do you think Israel is incapable of carrying out assassinations on it's own people in foreign countries to frame Iran, providing a pretext for war? If so you don't know how they operate. Take a long look and then tell me you can put anything past them.

 

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/37191-remembering-the-u-s-s-liberty/page__p__356711__fromsearch__1#entry356711

[mrd]

Good questions. If you're willing to put the time in, the answers to your questions are in the Bible. If you don't have the time, I can boil it down for you. If you're interested, let me know.

Some things are a mystery, either because God has not chosen to reveal the answers or because we're incapable of understanding them. Who can fully understand God or His ways? We can only go by what He has revealed to us. Prove God's existence? Jesus claimed to be God and did many miracles individually and in front of crowds, yet many who saw those miracles still refused to believe. The problem is not that there is not enough evidence, it's that people refuse to believe what evidence there is. Why? Because that would mean that God exists and has a claim on their lives. Many people don't want that. If someone doesn't want to believe in God, no amount of evidence would convince them.

 

I asked for proof not referencing the bible. I do think your answer is well written and I appreciate the effort. There is a difference between a person believing what you believe and believing in god.

[mrd]

I am happy to say I agree we need no more wars. I do think it is ironic to see that sentiment expressed in this thread because that is not possible when we are so strongly influenced by Israel, the Jewish supremacist state. Do you think Israel is incapable of carrying out assassinations on it's own people in foreign countries to frame Iran, providing a pretext for war? If so you don't know how they operate. Take a long look and then tell me you can put anything past them.

 

You should ask the people of the Bahai faith how Iran treated them. They hung people for being bahai. Iran and Iraq fought for years and 7 million people died essentially a religious war. You were a child when Iran held people for over a year and cut a deal withReagan to release them in exchange for weapons. Perhaps you should spread the blame a little more.

 

 

 

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/37191-remembering-the-u-s-s-liberty/page__p__356711__fromsearch__1#entry356711

[Hempcheff]

Just fyi...

 

 

Iran Oil Ministry: Exports cut to Britain, France

 

 

 

TEHRAN, Iran — Iran's Oil Ministry says oil exports have been halted to Britain and France.

 

The statement posted on the ministry's shana.ir website on Sunday appears to be part of pre-emptive action by Iran after the European Union decided to boycott Iranian oil beginning in July. The 27-nation EU accounts for about 18 percent of Iran's oil exports.

 

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20120219/ML.Iran.Oil/

[mrd]

I think Iran has just shot itself in its economic foot. An act showing independence,yet it works against their own best interests.

[MightyMightyMezz]

For the record this is mrd's quote, not mine

 

You should ask the people of the Bahai faith how Iran treated them. They hung people for being bahai. Iran and Iraq fought for years and 7 million people died essentially a religious war. You were a child when Iran held people for over a year and cut a deal withReagan to release them in exchange for weapons. Perhaps you should spread the blame a little more.

 

I thought we went through this before. Iran denies killing Bahai people so how do we know which is correct? Holding Iran responsible while controlling them like a puppet sounds like the usual MO. You never acknowledged the CIA-backed coup. It's kind of a big deal.

 

More to the point Israel has murdered countless Palestinians and made life a living hell for the rest of them. They attacked us for crying out loud. Who do you think carried out the assassinations on Iranian scientists?

[Kevin]

The separation of church & state was not to keep the state out of the church, it was to keep the church out of the state but I don't think they paid it much attention.

 

I did compose a post for this thread as it's a very important topic to me, but on second thought it's probably better that I don't even get started on the subject of the influence of organized religion in politics. Some things are better left unsaid.

 

Or, just find the lyrics to 'Dumb All Over' and 'Heavenly Bank Account' by Frank Zappa. I'm somewhere in that neighborhood.

 

 

 

 

 

Peace.

[MightyMightyMezz]

Taken in context this thread is not really about God. God is just a prop used here in an attempt to justify the aggression of Israel against Iran.

 

"By Deception We Wage War" - Israeli Mossad motto

[Kevin]

Sure it is. Nearly everything we do is about God and always has been.

 

Just look at history and see what we've done in the name of God. Most every war ever fought, the Inquisition, the Crusades, arranged marriages to minors, the burning of witches, ethnic cleansing, honor rape, honor killings, fatwa, suppression of women and gays, human sacrifice, suicide bombings. How many decades did the clergy get away with having sex with children and maybe still are today. They got away with it because they did it under the guise of religion.

 

What Israel has been doing to the Palestinians is a travesty and it's because they believe it's their 'holy land'. I say the entire planet is the holy land and not just that little strip of desert in the mid-east. Every square inch of God's earth is holy land.

 

We must always remember, the evil heinous acts of flying passenger jets into the twin towers on 9/11 was a faith based initiative.

 

It doesn't take a genius to realize that organized religion is corrupt, governments are corrupt, and corporations who delve into religion and politics to gain power are corrupt. Put them all together and you really have something special.

 

Get organized religion completely out of politics and get corporate money completely out of politics. Keep them all separated and that pretty much cleans up corporations, politics and organized religion. They're bad enough on their own but when they combine them the real trouble starts.

 

You can't run a country on a book of religion. Not by a heap or a lump or a smidgen. FZ. I'll say no more about it.

 

 

 

 

 

Peace.

[mrd]

I tend to agree.

[Letterhead954]

I asked for proof not referencing the bible. I do think your answer is well written and I appreciate the effort. There is a difference between a person believing what you believe and believing in god.

I'm not sure what you mean, but here is no difference.

What proof would you accept?

Why not use the Bible? Much of the Bible is history, and history can be verified or falsified. If it can be shown to be historically accurate, why not use it? Wouldn't it be wise to look at history for evidence of God?

Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate the fact that you are asking questions and not just slamming the door (not on me, on yourself). Too few people do that. If you're genuinely asking, and not just looking for reasons to not believe, you'll find answers.

Have a good one!

[Letterhead954]

The separation of church & state was not to keep the state out of the church, it was to keep the church out of the state but I don't think they paid it much attention.

 

You've got that completely bass-akwards. The constitution says nothing about the seperation of church and state. It says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free excercise thereof", and it means just that. The whole Bill of Rights is to protect our God given rights from the government, not to protect the government from us.

It's hard to believe the crap some of you guys believe. Sure, a lot of evil has been done in the name of religion. That's always happened and always will. To conclude that because of that all of it is corrupt is illogical. Christians originally built the universities and hospitals in the U.S.. They ran and continue to run orphanages and charities. Millions of people are helped every year by faith based organizations. You folks sound like you're blinded by hate. Hate the government, hate the Jews, hate the corporations...

[mrd]

I'm not sure what you mean, but here is no difference.

What proof would yous accept?

Why not use the Bible? Much of the Bible is history, and history can be verified or falsified. If it can be shown to be historically accurate, why not use it? Wouldn't it be wise to look at history for evidence of God?

Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate the fact that you are asking questions and not just slamming the door (not on me, on yourself). Too few people do that. If you're genuinely asking, and not just looking for reasons to not believe, you'll find answers.

Have a good one!

 

You have made a mistake. I am not seeking answers.i have no need , no compulsion to prove to myself that god does or does not exist. I am stating that the answers that religious people make as to the existence of god tend to be faith based and not evidence based.

 

The point is that the bible and other holy books such as the quoron (Muslim Spelling error I am sure)or the writing of Smith (morman) the bghad Vita (hindu and more spelling) etc. all basically say this: "What is contained herein is true". They are self referential. They never prove that that the ideas that what they contain is true. I want outside provable reference,such as 42 ft high flamming letter that proclaim "Sorry for the inconvenience".It makes no difference to me that many folks believe a thing is true. As an example people in the USA used to believe that that eating a tomato would kill you. Then a doctor ate one on a court house steps,and proved to the crowd that he could eat one and he did not die. It did not prove all tomatoes were not poisonous (although likely true) but it did prove that at least one tomato was not poison, it did change the paradigm. Now one could not say that all tomatoes in the world were poisonous.Just because you can find some historical references does not make a thing true. The world is big enough a stage without a book that proclaims without evidence that its contents are true. I could give you a historical references that were all agreed upon to be true then I could make a statement that I saw god too. Would that make my statement true? No, I still would have to prove that it was true rather than saying because JFK got shot (which we will call true for the sake of this argument) therefore my next statement is true.

 

No. No conveniant history to prove the existence of god. History is malleable. I have seen several versions of the old testament bible with differences that seem to have intnetionaly made to suggest the coming of christ. Seems like someone took liberties to make those changes. If god is all powerfull then there should be some proof of gods existance or vishnu existence.

 

If god went up to you, and you were really really convinced it was god and He or she said " I am all powerful and time and space are like putty in my infinelty powerful hands and I tell you that what you read in the bible is no longer true".

Do you go with it? Remember in this example it is god herself telling you.

 

Remember I do not share your beliefs. I am simply open to hearing out and considering your opinions.

 

If god is all powerful why doesn't god smote the wicked, those who are wicked and know it, down into grease? After all they might acknowledge the bible and not care. Once they, lets say, intentionly kill an innocent. Why let them go on? So they can torture some more folks?

 

w

Why doesn't god smote Newt Gingrich for being an adulterer? Newt probably has come across the ten commandments. He knows the score. He supposedly committed adultery. Let the smoting of the adulterers esp the serial adulters begin! My mother was a queen royal complain am i to be condemned for thinking ill of her when I was struck with objects? Yeah yeah god forgives for breaking commandments and edicts that were written in the bible. Notice that unproveable bible reference.

 

Unless god is cruel or indifferent.

 

If god existed and was so friggin benevolent, you would think there could be a little less suffering especially of those who are innocent. Remember if you blame it on the devil then it is still gods doing since god created and is over the devil since god is all powerful or so the bible proclaims.

 

 

The threat of hell in a book does not prove its existence.

 

 

 

I see a lot of evidence of chance and people interpreting chance as non random. If you reference the bible then you do not win the argument. That is the condition of the argument. If you cannot prove gods existence without referencing a man made book then you do not make a convincing argument.

[Letterhead954]

You have made a mistake. I am not seeking answers.i have no need , no compulsion to prove to myself that god does or does not exist. I am stating that the answers that religious people make as to the existence of god tend to be faith based and not evidence based.

 

The point is that the bible and other holy books such as the quoron (Muslim Spelling error I am sure)or the writing of Smith (morman) the bghad Vita (hindu and more spelling) etc. all basically say this: "What is contained herein is true". They are self referential. They never prove that that the ideas that what they contain is true. I want outside provable reference,such as 42 ft high flamming letter that proclaim "Sorry for the inconvenience".It makes no difference to me that many folks believe a thing is true. As an example people in the USA used to believe that that eating a tomato would kill you. Then a doctor ate one on a court house steps,and proved to the crowd that he could eat one and he did not die. It did not prove all tomatoes were not poisonous (although likely true) but it did prove that at least one tomato was not poison, it did change the paradigm. Now one could not say that all tomatoes in the world were poisonous.Just because you can find some historical references does not make a thing true. The world is big enough a stage without a book that proclaims without evidence that its contents are true. I could give you a historical references that were all agreed upon to be true then I could make a statement that I saw god too. Would that make my statement true? No, I still would have to prove that it was true rather than saying because JFK got shot (which we will call true for the sake of this argument) therefore my next statement is true.

 

No. No conveniant history to prove the existence of god. History is malleable. I have seen several versions of the old testament bible with differences that seem to have intnetionaly made to suggest the coming of christ. Seems like someone took liberties to make those changes. If god is all powerfull then there should be some proof of gods existance or vishnu existence.

 

If god went up to you, and you were really really convinced it was god and He or she said " I am all powerful and time and space are like putty in my infinelty powerful hands and I tell you that what you read in the bible is no longer true".

Do you go with it? Remember in this example it is god herself telling you.

 

Remember I do not share your beliefs. I am simply open to hearing out and considering your opinions.

 

If god is all powerful why doesn't god smote the wicked, those who are wicked and know it, down into grease? After all they might acknowledge the bible and not care. Once they, lets say, intentionly kill an innocent. Why let them go on? So they can torture some more folks?

 

w

Why doesn't god smote Newt Gingrich for being an adulterer? Newt probably has come across the ten commandments. He knows the score. He supposedly committed adultery. Let the smoting of the adulterers esp the serial adulters begin! My mother was a queen royal complain am i to be condemned for thinking ill of her when I was struck with objects? Yeah yeah god forgives for breaking commandments and edicts that were written in the bible. Notice that unproveable bible reference.

 

Unless god is cruel or indifferent.

 

If god existed and was so friggin benevolent, you would think there could be a little less suffering especially of those who are innocent. Remember if you blame it on the devil then it is still gods doing since god created and is over the devil since god is all powerful or so the bible proclaims.

 

 

The threat of hell in a book does not prove its existence.

 

 

 

I see a lot of evidence of chance and people interpreting chance as non random. If you reference the bible then you do not win the argument. That is the condition of the argument. If you cannot prove gods existence without referencing a man made book then you do not make a convincing argument.

You're right about most of the world's religions. They are totally faith based. If there is no evidence for the truthfulness of their claims, why would anyone believe it? I'm with you on that. Christianity, however, is different in that it is based on evidence. Historical evidence. Archaeolgical evidence. If the history is wrong, I would be a fool to believe it. I've done a fair amount of study on this, that there is more evidence for the historical accuracy of the bible than there is for any other ancient writing. Yet the other writings that claim to be historical (unless there's evidence to the contrary) are universally accepted as accurate.

If history can't be used for evidence of God, then it can't be used to prove anything. If it's just malleable then we can know nothing that we think we know. We can know nothing beyond our own personal experience. Think of any historical event that you believe to be true. Why do you believe it? How could you possibly prove to anyone else that it is, in fact, true? If I'm understanding you correctly, nothing can be known or proven unless one see's it with his own eyes. What other form of evidence could be used for proof? Scientific evidence? Proving anything about God is outside the scope of science. Remember too that nothing can be 'proven' using historical analysis, like you can prove that gravity is real by jumping off a cliff. But we don't demand that kind of proof. Otherwise, like I said, we could know nothing that we think we know about what happened in the past. Including yesterday.

Suppose God already did show Himself to mankind? How would we know it? Would we demand that He show Himself to every person throught history in order for there to be enough proof of His existence? The only other evidence there could possibly be would be historical evidence. Then you have to determine if the history is accurate. Is there evidence that what the people said and claimed is true? Can the experiences they had be supported by that history? This is the type of research that would be done when looking at any event in the past.

Of course there is an element of faith in Christianity. But it is faith based on evidence, not just a blind leap. But if you don't know what that evidence is then it will be hard for you to accept that that is true.

The questions you asked about suffering and injustice have been pondered by mankind since the beginning. I wonder about them myself. But there are answers. One way to look at it is that if God doesn't exist, your questions are nonsensical. If all there is is the natural, material universe, and things are as they have always been, then how can we know that this world is broken? Can a fish know it's wet? Where do we get this idea of an 'unbroken' world, where none of these outrages occur? Why do we consider them outrages, or unjust? In a naturalisitic universe there is no logical basis for morality. We are just animals, where might makes right. Good and evil are just illusions. Good and bad are what I like or don't like and I can't impose that on you except by force. But if we're just animals, why couldn't I? There simply can not be an objective standard of morality if there is no God. To get a better inderstanding of what I'm saying, check out this short article http://americanvision.org/5352/%e2%80%98would-the-world-be-better-off-without-religion%e2%80%99/

So, how could I or anyone else know the answers to your questions? Only someone outside of our experience could know, and they would have to reveal it to us. Someone outside looking in. Kind of like us telling the fish that he's wet, but that there is a 'dry'. I know the basics of the answers, though there is a whole ton I don't know. But knowing the basics is sufficient for me. But if I told you you wouldn't believe me, because I couldn't 'prove' it based on your standard of proof. That I know some of the answers isn't because I'm so smart, or that I've seen heaven and have come back to see just how messed up this world really is by comparison. And believe me, it's messed up far more than you or I can know. At it's core it's because I believe God revealed Himself in history, history that can be verified.

If God was to correct all the terrible things we do to one another, just how would He do that? It seems to me that He'd have only two choices. Either He could make us robots that have no choice but to obey Him and live by His perfect moral code, or He could kill us. All of us. Would a righteous, holy God just kill the murderers? What about me when I said hurtful, ugly things to my daughter? What about that occasional desire to smash someones face when I'm really irritated? What about gossipers, or someone who has stolen something or cheated someone? What about people who have hatred toward someone? All of us do bad (of course the idea of 'bad' only comes from a religious worldview) things throughout our lives. We all deserve His judgement. If He exists, that is. If He doesn't, we're screwed and none of this matters. We're born, through no choice of our own, we live difficult, painful, and sometimes hellish lives, then we die. End of story. No meaning, no purpose. We're just a random collection of atoms. If He could exist, perhaps it would be a good use of our time find out, and accept the evidence He's provided. All of it, not just the historical, including creation itself.

Good talking with you. I hope you have a good day.

[mrd]

I go with the random atom theory. How does a fish know its wet? How do we know atoms exist? Can't see one with the naked eye. Planets? Galaxies? What makes a computer work. Plenty of examples.

 

Just because a book historically shows that certain people lived somewhere and had certain beliefs does not prove their beliefs were true and it does not prove the existence of god. Seems to show the veracity of the general record but as for any general truths not so much. just because tribal people believed in god does not prove gods existence. the records of Chinese culture are older than in western predating Christianity. Does that mean that the gods that the Chinese worshiped were false? How does that make them true? i

Sufficient proof? I probably can meet you and shake your hand. I do have to trust my senses that you are there. I do not rely on telepathy where I do not get any direct answers. Attribution is not evidence. If you attribute everything to be gods work then there is no room for discussion. it is like a child who has the belief that he or she is the cause of everything that happens in the world. So the child is taken to a psychiatrist who asks him "How do you know that what you believe is true?". The child answers "I made you say that!" Convincing the chold otherwise would be difficult at the least since he views everything as evidence of his power.

 

As long as it comes down to faith, it is not evidence based. I have no problem with you being a christian or believing in god. It is not my fight. I actually believe in freedom of religion and freedom from it too.

 

My wife's ancestors came to this country so they could escape religious persecution and immediately set up a system which was intolerant of others religious beliefs because they considered their way true. My more immediate ancestors were murdered for their religious beliefs. I am probably more tolerant of people having faith than most. I just do not share your faith.

[MightyMightyMezz]

What does all this have to do with Israel claiming Iran will attack?