Insulation And Design Help

[sho]

Building a new set of rooms, two 8x11 flower rooms separated by 5 feet I'll use for veg. 6 hoods per room on a flipbox.

 

The room is being built along a concrete wall in my basement. I'm insulating the concrete block with 1" thick rigid foam board, inside of the board there will be a 1 5/8" metal stud. Now, I want to also add a 3/4" layer of rigid foam board to the inside of the whole area that's to become grow, before adding my separating walls and drywall.

 

Basically it'll be ...

 

1" Pink Rigid Insulation / 1 5/8" Metal Stud / 3/4" Insulation / 5/8" Drywall

 

Both flower rooms will have AC, hoods will be on their own fresh air venting through my chimney. Rooms will be completely sealed, running CO2 in the future.

 

 

I'm building-friendly, so project doesn't scare me nor does it's cost. What I'm worried about is the 1 5/8" void between the two layers of foam board causing condensation issues. I can whip this up in AutoCAD if someone needs to look at it to understand where I'm going, but I need some help before I tear into this project.

[OG Fire Beaster]

My setup is similar. Except I used fiberglass insulation and made all the walls and ceiling with 2x4's. I wrapped everything in panda film then put my studs in. Stapled in the insulation and then put another layer of panda film over that. The gap in your insulation might help air flow through and cut down on any potential mold problems. If your worried I would wrap the whole thing in some type of plastic and then screw your drywall over that. Or you could get a spray insulation and fill the voids with that.

[sho]

Basement is being framed in metal studs, no bat insulation and no organic material in the walls. Mold shouldn't be an issue, I'm worried about water collecting in my wall from two layers of insulation and creating a condensation zone with no air movement to dry it out. Let me AutoCAD this all up, will post a pic in a bit.

[Hayduke]

OG, aren't you concerned about the potential problems with a double vapor barrier? 

 

Sort of up the line sho is talking about.  

 

Ultimately, if, you have the problem it is locked up in the wall and you typically don't find out for some time....

 

Ya may wanna look that up in a building and insulation inspection guide....

[sho]

I know the codes for installing, but this really isn't a one-size-fits-all because most rooms are either warmer than outside air or hotter (ie: walk in coolers, indoor commercial walk-in ovens). This will be both through out the year -- winter time, it'll be warmer than rest of basement summer time it'll be considerably colder.

[pergamum362]

Spray on insulation for the gap maybe?dunno what else you wld use.

[jayt]

Open cell or closed cell foam? Open cell will pass moisture closed cell won't. Why not just cut foam to fit between the metal studs and leave no gap? Maybe paint the walls with a water blocking paint first to help keep moisture out.

[OG Fire Beaster]

Hay

 

I built mine with bat and double panda flim so I can replace/fix it easily. It is a converted boat shed.

Not knowing much about the basement that Sho's is going into or the time frame of use, I was just tossing out some ideas.

[Hayduke]

it's cool by me.  I have built a couple homes, and one time on an attic I insulated it so tightly that in the winter the moisture from the house could not get out.  Ice hanging from the roofing nails got me introduced to the world of double barriers.  I am glad your is working well.  Likely it is perfectly not so tight, which is actually best for fresh air travel in and out of a building.

[sho]

I may end up opting for spray-foam, it won't be cheap. Should run right around $8,000 based on prices I'm finding online (for the whole basement, mind you). It's going to get finished, in due time, so spend now save later.

[OG Fire Beaster]

I actually get decent air movement through the walls. When I turn on my 10" room fan that goes through a big charcoal filter the walls "puff" out nicely. Slight negative pressure in the rooms. I cut into it from time to time just to see how it is holding up on the inside. Not too bad. 30x15 and it was under 1000 with all the wiring supplies. The insulation was the expensive part.

[solabeirtan]

Here's the dope guys...

 

It's even illustrated sho, very nice dwgs too ?

[Mr. Wilson]

A basement is different because the outside soil temp. warms the wall, unlike a first floor wall.

 

I would not put anything on basement walls that have even a hint of moisture, until the moisture problem is resolved.

If the walls are totally and completely dry during every season of every year...that is different.

 

But remember that the cool side will be interior and the warm side will be exterior, so you can anticipate where condensation may appear.

I would try to find a way to let some air into the cavity from above or below (raised floor). That way you still benefit from higher R-value in the rooms and avoid any moisture that may accumulate.

[pic book]

Building a new set of rooms, two 8x11 flower rooms on a flipbox.

I haven't seen much on flipboxes since Krusty, Billy Liar and Heath promoted them 2006-7 during CA energy crisis.

 

I can whip this up in AutoCAD if someone needs to look at it.

sho, you have autocad!  I'm jealous.  Where to get it and cost?  Heath Robinson and Billy Liar show some autocad and it's great but they scared me off when they said it is so expensive... 

Edited July 1, 2013 by pic book

[sho]

A basement is different because the outside soil temp. warms the wall, unlike a first floor wall.

 

I would not put anything on basement walls that have even a hint of moisture, until the moisture problem is resolved.

If the walls are totally and completely dry during every season of every year...that is different.

 

But remember that the cool side will be interior and the warm side will be exterior, so you can anticipate where condensation may appear.

I would try to find a way to let some air into the cavity from above or below (raised floor). That way you still benefit from higher R-value in the rooms and avoid any moisture that may accumulate.

There are currently no moisture problems (minus me hacking out old plumbing lines that didn't have a shutoff valve anywhere and winding up with 50 gallons of water on the floor...).

 

I haven't seen much on flipboxes since Krusty, Billy Liar and Heath promoted them 2006-7 during CA energy crisis.

 

sho, you have autocad!  I'm jealous.  Where to get it and cost?  Heath Robinson and Billy Liar show some autocad and it's great but they scared me off when they said it is so expensive... 

I work at an equipment supplier, we use AutoCAD to design plans for the equipment we sell to be installed in a customers location. It's a $5,000 license, but there's free stuff that does much the same things. AutoCAD is just used by everyone because it's the best and has the most addons and specs for materials.

[solabeirtan]

sho, you have autocad!  I'm jealous.  Where to get it and cost?  Heath Robinson and Billy Liar show some autocad and it's great but they scared me off when they said it is so expensive...

I know I was hoping he was going to show us some drawing, so far he's a no sho! ha hahahah just kidding sho.

About the Acad: they have all kinds of demos on line. Usually good for 30/90 days. They have so many programs available now, besides the ol trusty autocad , you could stay busy for a while. Reminds me, my subscription is overdue, expired 6/25 gotta fins my cc... Right Now there rolling out this Autocad365 where you get it from the cloud ... not 100% on that yet ... they have starter cad things too ...

 

back now to regular scheduled programming...

[sho]

Pretty much approximate sizes. 6 1000w per room, two flower rooms on outside and in the middle will be "veg area" -- I'll also have a room outside of these rooms (at least a wall) that will have all the power.

 

You'll have to go through another room to get to the grow (won't be "the locked door" in the basement). You'll have to either go through a mechanical room (water heater, boiler, etc.) or through the laundry room to get into the grow. I'm going to go with spray foam, but figured people would like to see what I'm working on.

 

Will be using 2 1/2" 25g metal studs on all exterior walls on a treated 2x4" baseplate (to add a nailer surface and a thermal break). Interior walls will be 3 1/2" metal studs. Exterior walls will have 2.5" spray foam insulation (maybe 3"), interior walls will have 2", and the cieling of the grow will get 3x4" rigid board plus a 3/4" layer of spray foam (ease of removal at a later date is why I'm using the rigid foam first). The entire insulation system will be seamless, plus a 5/8" layer of fire and mold resistant drywall to the grow room.

 

Grow is going to be on a separate sub-panel, panel to be installed in the mechanical room with the ballasts and flipbox (keep extra heat out). Hoods will be sealed, room will be sealed, bottled CO2 setup (instead of the NG generators). I will be using a split AC system, and one AC unit in each flower room.

 

I'll be $10k into this when I'm done. Eye Platinum ballasts, Flipbox, (incase I want to add a few more lights in the future). Right now I'm at 65w/sq ft

 

Haven't decided which hoods I'm going to use... I've got two King Cobra's right now to flower, and two Lumateks. Should be plenty to get started until I make a big equipment investment ($3500 for ballasts, about $2000 for hoods, and a grand for the flipbox !)

Edited July 2, 2013 by sho

[solabeirtan]

Seems to be wasting a lot of space? Maybe that's the only place it works?

 

Dont like the spray foam personally. Rigid foam is re-usable. Will/should help with ventilation, too. Keep studs off floor. Screw to ceiling and block below. Secure as needed. Skip the floor, unless its leak proof with drain installed, then by all means.

 

Other than that should work. Good Basic Design. Drawing only shows floor plan, no eqt. layout, hook-ups. You got the cad may as well use it! That's the way I started. Drew each component, to see how it fit. etc...It helped me immensely. That was 2008, wish I could find some of them... keep up the good work!  

Edited July 2, 2013 by solabeirtan

[sho]

Modular home so top and bottom (looking at the pic) of the house has a main beam the panels sit on for the above floor.

 

Where do you see the wasted space? All electrical will be run inside the rooms with conduit, for ease of upgrading/adding outlets in the future.

 

I'm doing all the work except the spray foam myself, so cost isn't really an issue. Looking to harvest one room a month with 12-18 plants in each.

[solabeirtan]

 

Wasted Space. If you move it to any of these locs leaves more rooom. That what your beams' like that you mentioned?

Edited July 3, 2013 by solabeirtan

[sho]

Outside of the drawing was the concrete block walls, I'll add in the plumbing, boiler, beams, etc. now that I'm at work again. Day before a holiday and I've only got a few simple quotes to prepare... Give me an hour bud.

[sho]

Annotated with what you can't see on CAD and I'm def. not drawing up all the components... haha. Not sure if I'm 100% true to the sizes and placement of thigns in the basement, I just need a "rough" idea of what I'm doing and I'll work with what I've got when I'm doing it. I think the house is a little wider (L to R) than I put in AutoCAD, but with walls in the way I can't get a good measure. Ordering 150 2 1/2" steel studs and 40 3 1/2" studs along with track on Friday, and 5/8" Fire/Mold resistant drywall (5/8" 12'ers not carried locally, go figure).

Edited July 3, 2013 by sho

[solabeirtan]

Just through in a few details to verify your design, I toyed with the door swings. You could do alternatives. Did a rough on your mwall materia -
I got apx 140' lineal for all the rooms
- like 105 studs, 30 - 10' track

Those other rooms esp the extra front wall will use up half the materials.

otherwise I dont forsee any problems. I like the metal studs. Used them on mine for the first time. Also used the gb like you, good idea. Try to keep it off the floor is my theory. 3/4"+,- . Be careful installing the wire through the metal studs it can cut the insulation. Looks good otherwise, time to get busy this weekend, ehh?

Edited July 5, 2013 by solabeirtan

[sho]

6 hoods in each room bud ... I'll add it in a minute.

[sho]

Going to clean basement tonight, move stuff around/etc. to get ready to start work. Will update with photos most likely Friday. I've got a lotta work to do.

 

Fk it, it won't export my drawing with newly created masses. I'm ready to head home, see you guys Friday.

Edited July 3, 2013 by sho