Who Is Eligible For Section 8 ?

[GregS]

Zero section 8 hearings and zero trials. This is out of about six cases that went section 8 that I'm privy to being close family to an attorney. In each case the defendant took a plea with no incarceration but all the crap involved with weekly probation officer visits, home inspections, pee tests, etc. in each case because the defendant didn't have the resources to fight the good fight.

 

I have no patience for the courts looking at the dr/pt relationship. In MHO once a Dr. Issues a rec for MMJ use, that should be the end of the discussion there. If a doc is being frivolous with MMJ recs, that becomes an issue for the licensing board. The MMMA doesn't put sec 4 onus on the patient if the Dr. Issued a bad rec.

 

To answer your question, any attack on the Dr./patient relationship is absurd. A valid Dr. Rec should be able to stand on its own.

Precisely the point. A cg cannot be called to account if and when a patient swears to a bona fide recommendation. All they need is evidence. The agreement accomplishes that.

[kingrambo]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z0So7ZzDqFo court Friday on this I'm sure it'll be dismissed Edited May 28, 2014 by kingrambo

[bobandtorey]

The whole section 8 affirmative defense cannot be disallowed by premeditated felonious activity by the LEO. So assume a section 8 defense is available. Why would anyone think it is ok to have rinky dink city police officers lure mm people tot their town to bust them in undercover sting operations that end with masked gunmen? Then the judges convict you and say what you did is illegal because of the cops actions. No way fake cards go to supreme court without clarification, too bad whatever they clarify will take afew test too.... This means that MI law is to arrest and make the ill felons build these case laws from jail. Then they arrest a dispensary 2 miles over and don't even charge them. This is bs no argument about it

 

[kingrambo]

MMMA VS DeWitt MI Police:

Repost

[kingrambo]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=z0So7ZzDqFo

[bobandtorey]

Zero section 8 hearings and zero trials. This is out of about six cases that went section 8 that I'm privy to being close family to an attorney. In each case the defendant took a plea with no incarceration but all the crap involved with weekly probation officer visits, home inspections, pee tests, etc. in each case because the defendant didn't have the resources to fight the good fight.

 

I have no patience for the courts looking at the dr/pt relationship. In MHO once a Dr. Issues a rec for MMJ use, that should be the end of the discussion there. If a doc is being frivolous with MMJ recs, that becomes an issue for the licensing board. The MMMA doesn't put sec 4 onus on the patient if the Dr. Issued a bad rec.

 

To answer your question, any attack on the Dr./patient relationship is absurd. A valid Dr. Rec should be able to stand on its own.

 

 

A valid Dr. Rec should be able to stand on its own

 

i think we all can agree to this but the Courts won't and haven't

 

that part is  over with 

[Dr. Bob]

Dr. Bob, how have you changed your protocol based on Hartwick and Tuttle to help protect your patients and their caregivers? Hartwick and Tuttle have changed the application of section 4 in court as well.

 

Highlander, you have made assertions above denying the medical defense to patients and their caregivers, when the ballot language clearly states that patients and caregivers, registered and unregistered, can assert the defense. You have made statements pronouncing a person that sells to a cop that is faking it to be "some guy selling weed" when the clear intent of the seller was to sell only to registered patients, by requiring a card.

 

In one case, you judged them unable to defend themselves from a criminal charges though they have no criminal intent, and in the other, you have convicted them because of the actions of the police. What am I supposed to think?

I discuss record keeping with each caregiver, suggesting they put together a packet with the patient's medical form (including diagnosis), note the specific symptoms the patient is asking them for assistance with, and to try and get a good feel for the amount of cannabis the patient needs and produce accordingly.  We also discuss the transport of cannabis, and the need for visible plant (specifically flower or leaf) material in any preparation.  We also instill the need to do follow up and provide for free in person and on line follow ups, telling them it is the difference between a section 8 defense and a plea.  We also offer a service for those that went to 'marginal' clinics to do an in person follow up with us, then have access to the on line updates, discounting their renewal for the $75 fee we charge to take them on (so if they renew with us the more solid chart is done for free as a service to the community).

 

As you well know the bonafide relationship standard in Tuttle was based more on timing than the law.  The incident occurred after the board of medicine put out that nonsense recommendation and before PA 512 actually defined the relationship.  While we fully and completely follow the law on the bonafide relationship as defined by PA 512, we also incorporate many aspects of the now obsolete recommendations of the board.  Specifically, we do not limit ourselves to cannabis certification, in fact most of our business is pain management and suboxone.  We always required records, we always kept a chart and we always suggested and provided for free follow up.  Many of our cert patients have long standing relationships with us for pain or suboxone as well.

 

Finally, as part of the office packet, patients sign a document confirming that they understand the limits of the act and what it does and doesn't allow, offers suggested guidelines for dosing, suggestions for methods of ingestion, and again stresses the need to take part in follow up.

 

Hope that answered your question.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

I'd rather work with a dead doctor than one that won't show up.

Hey, I don't plan on croaking any time soon, but my records would well represent me.  My records as a dead doc and better than many of the live ones that run from grow shop to dispensary to hotel room.

 

Dr. Bob

[ozzrokk]

So Bustedinc. Did you say that the LEO went and got a doc. rec. and then sent in paper naming you as their caregiver and then wait 21 days and then bust you?

[bustedinclintontwsp]

no if he sent it in like he said i'ld be legal.

[GregS]

no if he sent it in like he said i'ld be legal.

Did you keep a copy of the rec?

[Dr. Bob]

So Bustedinc. Did you say that the LEO went and got a doc. rec. and then sent in paper naming you as their caregiver and then wait 21 days and then bust you?

pretty much the key question.  If yes, then sounds like a pretty good case.  If no, a little more challenging.

 

Dr. Bob

[bustedinclintontwsp]

I didn't save his, this all wasn't even illegal at the time! or so I thought

[Dr. Bob]

It would be smart to retain a copy of your patients' application and physician cert, along with their cancelled check.  That way you can prove the validity, show you know their condition, etc.  The documentation only helps you.

 

The problem with not having it is how are you going to prove they saw a doctor, that you were aware of their condition, and that you were their designated caregiver?  Please don't answer publicly, that is a discussion you need to have with your attorney and your patient's certifying doctor.

 

Dr. Bob

[ozzrokk]

Always retain a copy of the paperwork. I also make sure that I am the one sending it in certified mail and I make sure I get a copy of the signed check. Really surprising that they would go so far as get rec and fill out paperwork then wait the wait time. Then bust you. This should not be leos intent to try and bust someone TRYING to do it by the book. A true shame................ Sounds like you would have a good case if you kept a copy of the paperwork. So sad that leo is taking this route. Good luck to you,

Edited May 29, 2014 by ozzrokk

[GregS]

Hey Dr, Bob. What are your thoughts regarding trapezius trauma caused soft tissue injury that is localized, and with the potential to be found to be intercostal rib pain?

Edited May 29, 2014 by GregS

[Dr. Bob]

Put ice on it, then heat.  And see a doctor if it doesn't get better.  A local bruise should not cause intercostal pain.  Somatic dysfunction of a rib, underlying fracture, or referred pain are more likely.

 

You are welcome.

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

Put ice on it, then heat.  And see a doctor if it doesn't get better.  A local bruise should not cause intercostal pain.  Somatic dysfunction of a rib, underlying fracture, or referred pain are more likely.

 

You are welcome.

 

Dr. Bob

Yes. Thank you kindly. 

 

In this same instance, in the event of pain occurring continually over fifteen years, to include severe neuropathy of the trapezius that is very effectively treated with cannabis, and nonetheless leaving localized areas of pain throughout the trapezius, and understanding that conservative treatment has been delivered and has little effect, to include ice, heat, and meds, what is the indicated tx? Prior tx includes intercostal rib steroid injections, facet joint injections, and miserably failed chiropractic. Diagnostics show degenerative disc disease throughout the spine, particlulary lumbar, thecal sac effacement, impingement syndrome, myofascial pain of the neck, back and shoulders. Recent lumbar injections intended to dx potential for RF ablation have failed. 

 

Sooo?

Edited May 29, 2014 by GregS

[Dr. Bob]

Yes. Thank you kindly. 

 

In this same instance, in the event of pain occurring continually over fifteen years, to include severe neuropathy of the trapezius that is very effectively treated with cannabis, and nonetheless leaving localized areas of pain throughout the trapezius, and understanding that conservative treatment has been delivered and has little effect, to include ice, heat, and meds, what is the indicated tx? Prior tx includes intercostal rib steroid injections, facet joint injections, and miserably failed chiropractic. Diagnostics show degenerative disc disease throughout the spine, particlulary lumbar, thecal sac effacement, impingement syndrome, myofascial pain of the neck, back and shoulders. Recent lumbar injections intended to dx potential for RF ablation have failed. 

 

Sooo?

Sounds like you have had a good work up.  If I was seeing you I would suggest cannabis.  It may help. But you would have to provide actual records from a physician to support your claims and self reported history.

 

But I am not.  Nor am I willing to provide you with a bonafide relationship or do your follow up.

 

I would suggest you find someone else and perhaps they will feel it is indicated and you can get a card if you would like one.

 

Best of luck to you sport, now the visit is over.

 

Dr. Bob

Edited May 29, 2014 by Dr. Bob

[cheapshades]

[Dr. Bob]

Oh look at me, oh look at me.  I am saying something all the time and will never stop until you respond, and then as a cat, I won't listen. 

 

You hit the nail on the head Cheap!

 

Oh I almost missed the true genius of the clip.  Every time it opened its mouth, someone else's 'cut and paste' words come out....  subtle, very subtle cheap!

 

Dr. Bob

Edited May 29, 2014 by Dr. Bob

[cheapshades]

Hey guys!  My attempt at subtlety was actually directed at Dr Bob and GregS.  For the short time I've been here, I've developed quite a respect for both of you. Your depth of knowledge is impressive, and your attempts to help others are commendable.  But I feel that you both discredit yourselves when you continue to display these "tiffs" towards each other in open forum.  I really wish both of you would back off and focus on helping others.  At the least, you both could PM each other and have a private flame war without subjecting others to it.  

 

Respectfully submitted,

cheapshades

 

peace

[GregS]

Hey guys!  My attempt at subtlety was actually directed at Dr Bob and GregS.  For the short time I've been here, I've developed quite a respect for both of you. Your depth of knowledge is impressive, and your attempts to help others are commendable.  But I feel that you both discredit yourselves when you continue to display these "tiffs" towards each other in open forum.  I really wish both of you would back off and focus on helping others.  At the least, you both could PM each other and have a private flame war without subjecting others to it.  

 

Respectfully submitted,

cheapshades

 

peace

Thanks for the sentiment cheapshades. We both know that we let our assholeness out a lot, and I'm really okay with it. Pushing forum limits is, well, what forums are for. 

 

As for Bob, I always like cheap entertainment. Right B*B?

 

We don't do subtlety.

Edited May 29, 2014 by GregS

[Dr. Bob]

Some folks just live to spout off in forums and cause drama. It is unfortunate every forum always has an agitator that likes to cause strife.  For the most part I simply answer questions with good information and from a conservative position.  Sorry about the distractions.  

 

Dr. Bob

[bustedinclintontwsp]

everyone has an opinion now but 3 4 years ago nobody knew what to do. the first year or two I didn't think they were going to go shawshank on my donkey. you can't do it by the book before they write the book. this is before I even know you were guilty until proven innocent, before I knew that the patient is OK but a patient send you to prison. then they make up the rules as I go along