Dr Meiri - Technion Researcher

[+washtenaut]

RSO (Rick Simpson Oil or cannabis concentrate oil)  has been shown to help some cancer patients reduce the size and/or number of their tumors.  The web has hundreds if not thousands of patient testimonials claiming cannabis oil has helped them 'beat back' a wide variety of cancers. 

 

There are animal studies showing that cannabinoids can be effective in getting cancer cells to commit suicide (apoptosis) and in starving tumors of blood supply.   It seems apparent that cannabinoids and the body's endo-cannabinoid system have a role in suppressing cancer development in healthy individuals and so a possible role in treating cancers in unhealthy individuals.  Given that cannabinoids are very well tolerated and do not harm healthy cells, to me anyway, cannabis based medicines show great promise in this area.

 

Unfortunately, I have also witnessed many cases where sadly the RSO had little anti-tumor impact and the patient passed away from their cancer.  The question for a long time for those of us that have seen both outcomes has been, why?  Why is it miraculous for some and all but useless to others?

 

Dedi Meiri, an Israeli researcher, and his team are attempting to answer that question.  His team is compiling two databases - one a cannabis strain DB and the other a cancer patient DB - and attempting to match the cannabis strains to the types of cancer it can impact.  They are determining which strains of cannabis were effective against what types of cancers.

 

His research group is also now able to breakdown the RSO into all of the plant's cannabinoids, terpenes, and flavonoids - over 150 compounds.  Once they determine effective strains against a given cancer, they cross reference to determine which of the 150 compounds within the strains were common.  In other words, they are homing in on exactly which cannabinoid, or combination of cannabinoids/terpenes/flavonoids, are the effective components in the fight.  Once determined, these compounds can be isolated, bred up, or synthesized to hopefully design an effective anti-cancer treatment.  Instead of treating all tumor types with RSO, a much more targeted approach can be tried.

 

The first video is sort of an informal talk but very informative.  It is 7-8 minutes long.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txywY2CyfKA&t=256s

 

In the second video Dr Meiri talks about both cancer and autism.  It is 18 minutes long

https://youtube.com/watch?v=9ioJbVyNg08

 



[Easy E]

Makes perfect sense to a layman like myself. There are only a handful of strains, that I have found to date, that can properly ease my back pain and keep me going. So why would any old strain be effective against something as nasty as cancer just because it has been made into RSO. 

It's great that research like this is being done. The findings could potentially save a lot of lives! Thanks for sharing!

[Restorium2]

This has been done already with Sativex.

I don't think it's strain specific at all with cannabis oil and cancer. That's from paying attention for many decades. It's all about the patient and the other factors surrounding them. Cannabis oil can aid a cancer patient. But there's never going to be a miracle cure strain or oil. 

There will be countless 'doctors' and others looking to make their fortunes on some 'holy grail' strain to cure cancer.  Be careful when you read about it from them. They will send you down the rabbit hole in their search for riches. 

[+washtenaut]

On 8/16/2018 at 6:50 AM, Restorium2 said:

This has been done already with Sativex.

I don't think it's strain specific at all with cannabis oil and cancer. That's from paying attention for many decades. It's all about the patient and the other factors surrounding them. Cannabis oil can aid a cancer patient. But there's never going to be a miracle cure strain or oil. 

There will be countless 'doctors' and others looking to make their fortunes on some 'holy grail' strain to cure cancer.  Be careful when you read about it from them. They will send you down the rabbit hole in their search for riches. 

You seem to be missing the point....by several miles.   Did you watch the videos?  Your reply makes me wonder.

 

It appears to be strain specific.  Meiri explains that different strains are effective on different cancer types and completely ineffective on other cancer types.  He is certain that there is no 'holy grail' strain to treat all cancer - that is his point.  He is analyzing the effective strains to determine which cannabinoids (either individually or in combination with other compounds) are the ones that are effective against different types of cancer. 

 

That means that in the future, we may be able to kill cancers with specific cannabinoids.  Today, RSO is hit or miss because we don't know the effective compounds in the fight so we don't know if that particular RSO will be effective.  Also, today, cancer patients using cannabis oil often struggle to tolerate huge doses of THC.  The effective compounds against the cancer may in many cases not require THC at all.  Those patients would be able to better tolerate their medicine if the THC could be taken out.

 

Not at all sure what you mean about 'done already with Sativex' either.

[Restorium2]

57 minutes ago, washtenaut said:

You seem to be missing the point....by several miles.   Did you watch the videos?  Your reply makes me wonder.

 

It appears to be strain specific.  Meiri explains that different strains are effective on different cancer types and completely ineffective on other cancer types.  He is certain that there is no 'holy grail' strain to treat all cancer - that is his point.  He is analyzing the effective strains to determine which cannabinoids (either individually or in combination with other compounds) are the ones that are effective against different types of cancer. 

 

That means that in the future, we may be able to kill cancers with specific cannabinoids.  Today, RSO is hit or miss because we don't know the effective compounds in the fight so we don't know if that particular RSO will be effective.  Also, today, cancer patients using cannabis oil often struggle to tolerate huge doses of THC.  The effective compounds against the cancer may in many cases not require THC at all.  Those patients would be able to better tolerate their medicine if the THC could be taken out.

 

Not at all sure what you mean about 'done already with Sativex' either.

To simplify:

GW already took the plant, real plants, many strains, and identified the cannabinoids. Then they tested them on cancers and found that most all extracts work the same on cancers. 

Just as I suspected from my anecdotal evidence. Many, many years of observation, most all cannabis extracts work the same. 

Any scientist that would label cannabis oil as RSO is a quack, period. Really ignorant way to describe it. 

[+washtenaut]

11 minutes ago, Restorium2 said:

To simplify:

GW already took the plant, real plants, many strains, and identified the cannabinoids. Then they tested them on cancers and found that most all extracts work the same on cancers. 

Just as I suspected from my anecdotal evidence. Many, many years of observation, most all cannabis extracts work the same. 

Any scientist that would label cannabis oil as RSO is a quack, period. Really ignorant way to describe it. 

I don't agree with the bolded statements.  I didn't think GW was identifying all compounds (all cannabinoids, terpenes, and flavonoids), but only the 'major' ones.  Maybe you could point me to some evidence of your assertions. 

I also thought GW's testing showed that different strains and thus (possibly) different cannabinoids were effective against different tumor types and ineffective against other tumor types.  I think Meiri's work takes it significantly further.  Pinpointing effective compounds or combinations of compounds advances the ball beyond identifying effective strains, imo.

[t-pain]

GW is just following what patients say on the internet works for them.

The only reason they use different strains is because they have strains that are higher in cbg, cbc, cbn, etc. basically they have bred plants with high levels of other "major" cannabinoids.

From the GW thesis and other information i've read, there is zero research gw is doing besides giving people cannabis oil in standardized doses and recording the results.

All of the cannabinoid tumor and cancer research has been done by other researchers in other countries for over 20+ years. GW does not do that research on mouse models, rats, animals etc. Only a few human trials and safety trials (on rats in order to get FDA approval). at least that i can tell. 

I have not watched Dr Meiri videos yet.

It could be that different amounts or compounds / terpenes work better for cancer than plain old regular cannabis oil. e.g. if you mix limonene and cbg and thca or something maybe it works 10% better to reduce tumors. who knows. Nothing wrong with studying it, but imo it will take hundreds of years to test each formulation and combination of terpenes and cannabinoids on each type of cancer.

Resto makes the point that usually, whenever anyone talks about a strain for a certain condition, its usually based on bullshit. he is right.

the main problem with "strain = condition" is that people dont know what strain they have. so building a database on self-reported strains (not dna tests) is probably going to be Garbage In Garbage Out kind of research.

there are all kinds of reasons why people dont respond to cannabis oil treatments. similar to people who feel different effects of cannabis oil. or an edible that you felt nothing after consuming it.

the main problem being inconsistent dosages, uneven plant growth and standardizing the manufacturing of products/oils.

i guess my point is that there are a lot more unknown variables before we can come up with a pill that works for everyone.

[Restorium2]

Goldman Sachs Gave GW $500,000,000 for this same research. If it were possible it would be on the market.

And the RSO reference is a dead giveaway that this was all fake news. No scientist in the world is going to reference Rick Simpson with anything scientific. It's so ridiculous I'm totally floored that you would repost this trash. I honestly always thought you were a real thinker.

[+washtenaut]

Resto, if you could get past the RSO name, I think perhaps you could better grasp the significance of Meiri's research.  In fact at this moment, I can only recall Meiri calling it 'cannabis extract' in the videos and not really calling it RSO, but I am not re-watching the videos again to be certain.  Probably over a million people refer to it as RSO, so if Meiri does use the term it would seem reasonable, even if it is less accurate than you would personally like.  Use of the term certainly does not diminish his research efforts

 

Recall he is in Israel not the US.  The standardization of strains, as least those provided by the Israeli government, are consistent.  These are not simply patient reported strain names.  These are the strains provided by the Israeli government, not the same strain provided by any one of hundreds of different dispensaries, as in the US.

 

The compilation of these data bases is an ongoing effort.  I didn't mean to imply it was done.  The Identification of ALL compounds in a given Israeli strain and the strain consistency there are unique to Meiri's (Israeli) research.  The cross referencing of the effective and ineffective strains against a given malady will one day result in the discovery of the exact component compounds that are the ones responsible for the medical result.  A medicine comprised likely of only those compounds will then go to human trial.  Different medicines will be developed for different cancer types - Med A for liver cancer, Med B for lung cancer, Med C for prostate cancer, etc.

 

The goal is not to find a one size fits all medicine, like RSO, that may contain 150 non-essential compounds.  The goal is to home in on the effective compounds for each illness where cannabis shows signs of effectiveness.  Like the example I mentioned, if THC is not an effective component in treating liver cancer, the cannabis medicine that will be put into clinical trials eventually for liver cancer will have no THC.  Over time, as the database becomes more robust, we will learn the effective compounds against each illness.  We can then treat with those compounds exclusively, if they are available.  In the interim, we will at least look to strains that have been identified to contain the necessary compounds.

[Restorium2]

My theory on this is that a good extraction of most all top shelf cannabis will yield all the cannabinoids anyone needs. It's in there. If it's going to help you than many of the great strains will do the trick. There's not any super special secret recipe. People overcomplicate it for various reasons. But that's just my theory. Haven't seen anything to refute it and I'm constantly looking. You extract a whole product and subtract what you don't want. 

[+washtenaut]

Well, it is easy for me to see why you have not seen evidence to refute your personal extract theory.  You are blind to the evidence that I just presented so likely also to the evidence others have shown you.

Have you ever had a cancer patient using cannabis extracts not respond or worse, pass away?  If so, perhaps your one-size-fits-all extract did not contain the proper combination of compounds to overtake the cancer.  You can smugly claim that nothing would have helped the now deceased person but do you know that?  There is no way you know that...to save us time.

I have buried 2 people close to me in the last year that were taking cannabis extract oil to treat their cancer.  In a sense I feel I have failed them but all along I knew the oil worked for some and not for others.   If Meiri's research can better pinpoint the effective compounds  and thus strains/extracts then I am all for it.  I really hate funerals.  You go on thinking you know enough Resto even if you don't.  Someday you may grasp the importance of Meiri's research  

[Restorium2]

RSO is a name for what some people make for themselves on a budget. Not what a scientist does in a lab. Scientists don't extract that way. If you ever read that a 'scientist' is doing RSO research, rest assured it's total BS. The science is way past anything 'RSO'. 

 

 

[Restorium2]

16 hours ago, t-pain said:

GW is just following what patients say on the internet works for them.

The only reason they use different strains is because they have strains that are higher in cbg, cbc, cbn, etc. basically they have bred plants with high levels of other "major" cannabinoids.

From the GW thesis and other information i've read, there is zero research gw is doing besides giving people cannabis oil in standardized doses and recording the results.

All of the cannabinoid tumor and cancer research has been done by other researchers in other countries for over 20+ years. GW does not do that research on mouse models, rats, animals etc. Only a few human trials and safety trials (on rats in order to get FDA approval). at least that i can tell. 

I have not watched Dr Meiri videos yet.

It could be that different amounts or compounds / terpenes work better for cancer than plain old regular cannabis oil. e.g. if you mix limonene and cbg and thca or something maybe it works 10% better to reduce tumors. who knows. Nothing wrong with studying it, but imo it will take hundreds of years to test each formulation and combination of terpenes and cannabinoids on each type of cancer.

Resto makes the point that usually, whenever anyone talks about a strain for a certain condition, its usually based on moo poo. he is right.

the main problem with "strain = condition" is that people dont know what strain they have. so building a database on self-reported strains (not dna tests) is probably going to be Garbage In Garbage Out kind of research.

there are all kinds of reasons why people dont respond to cannabis oil treatments. similar to people who feel different effects of cannabis oil. or an edible that you felt nothing after consuming it.

the main problem being inconsistent dosages, uneven plant growth and standardizing the manufacturing of products/oils.

i guess my point is that there are a lot more unknown variables before we can come up with a pill that works for everyone.

There's a lot of really great common sense thinking in your post.

But that last line sums up the biggest problem with how cannabis is approached.

The mentality that we will ever have a cannabis pill that works for everyone is a roadblock, not a goal. 

It's trying to pound a amorphous shaped cannabis plant into a round hole so it matches the other pills we have been taught is the standard of medicine today.

[+washtenaut]

3 hours ago, Restorium2 said:

RSO is a name for what some people make for themselves on a budget. Not what a scientist does in a lab. Scientists don't extract that way. If you ever read that a 'scientist' is doing RSO research, rest assured it's total BS. The science is way past anything 'RSO'. 

 

 

Wait.....you do know that I, Washtenaut, wrote the original post in this thread, right?  I described Dr Meiri's research, using 'cannabis extract' and 'RSO' interchangeably in my post.  I did not quote Dr Meiri nor did Dr Meiri write the original post.  I did.

I don't think in the videos that I linked that Dr Meiri ever says RSO.  He refers to it as 'cannabis extract'.  Point it out please if I am incorrect on that.  I did not hear it.

Someone would have to be a special kind of stupid to ignore new research because Washtenaut used the term RSO in describing the research.

[Restorium2]

37 minutes ago, washtenaut said:

Wait.....you do know that I, Washtenaut, wrote the original post in this thread, right?  I described Dr Meiri's research, using 'cannabis extract' and 'RSO' interchangeably in my post.  I did not quote Dr Meiri nor did Dr Meiri write the original post.  I did.

I don't think in the videos that I linked that Dr Meiri ever says RSO.  He refers to it as 'cannabis extract'.  Point it out please if I am incorrect on that.  I did not hear it.

Someone would have to be a special kind of stupid to ignore new research because Washtenaut used the term RSO in describing the research.

Nope. You are the stupid one for using it. I just pointed out how stupid it was. Quit being stupid and your posts will be less stupid. 

What makes the research below standard and out of date is it's already been done.  GW has tried all kinds of cannabinoids on cancer. They have applied all kinds of cannabinoids right on tumors with only small regressions if at all. 

We need to attack cancers at their source, our genes. Cannabis helps with the cancer symptoms and symptoms of the treatments. To expend resources and energy in the wrong direction makes curing cancer all that much more difficult. 

And yes Washy, I've lost quite a few people close to me to cancer. Haven't we all by now? People I know have access to all kinds of cannabis treatments. Everything you can think up. And they still die. They die because of their DNA. They die because their basic building blocks have been altered. Cannabis doesn't fix that. 

[bax]

yea rso is bad, but try not to be an donkey rectum resto.

[+washtenaut]

So Resto, some of the people using your one-size-fits-all cannabis extract to treat their cancer died?  I am sorry.  That is very painful.  You may want to consider that a different cannabis extract, one with the exact compounds known to kill that tumor type, could have saved that patient.  Just for an exercise, consider the possibility that you don't  know all that there is to know about cannabinoids.

Of course the oil provider wasn't to blame for these past deaths.  The caregiver likely did the best they could with the knowledge available at the time.

If however, Dr Meiri's database can now tell us exactly the necessary compounds to kill the cancer, and oil providers ignore that information, then they will share responsibility for subsequent deaths.  The database is not there yet but building it will be a fantastic development for cannabis based medicines. 

[Restorium2]

First you have to understand cancer. Then you have to understand cannabis. I'm sorry that you don't understand either very well. It's sad that people will try to take advantage of you and others in desperate situations. Really sad.

RSO is not bad. RSO helps people. The only bad part is an arrogant old fool put his name on cannabis oil. 

[Restorium2]

On a more positive note;

I just finished my invention that enables a patient to vape cannabis oil without any additives in a way that is better than what is presently available. It should help millions of people all across the world. 

[Restorium2]

19 hours ago, washtenaut said:

So Resto, some of the people using your one-size-fits-all cannabis extract to treat their cancer died? 

I make extracts that are infinitely adjustable to meet the needs of unique humans. I use many strains. I use a whole product from each strain and then subtract what a particular patient doesn't want/need in their extract.

[Easy E]

Wow a lot of arguing... and over what? Someone hoping to advance cannabis research in a direction they see fit, regardless of underlying motivation.

My post is meant to enlighten, not engage in this useless, head to wall banging, argument. You guys have that bunny muffin covered... and quite well considering this forum is more useful as a positive place for open, helpful and advancing cannabis conversation. 

I have grown a lot of strains. Most of the strains I have grown are "modern" hybrids, but I have experience with strains of various stages and intentions of breeding. When I pop 5-10 seed packs. Each seed produces a different phenotype of the respective strain. While some phenotypes may be similar they are genetically unique. Furthermore, the effects of these phenotypes are likely to have some variation.

Fact #1: There will never be a one size fits all medicinal cannabis product. Anyone who says different is likely influenced by ignorance, greed, or the desire to control. 

Fact #2: If a person using cannabis tells you that a specific phenotype of a strain helps their condition more than any other they have tried to date, they are telling you the truth. If that same person guarantees it will work for your similar or "identical" condition, that could be misleading. This is because everyone responds differently to cannabis. There are too many variables in the human consuming the cannabis, the way the cannabis is consumed, the way the cannabis is prepared for consumption, the way the cannabis is cultivated, and the genetics of the specific plant that is providing the medicine. Just thought I should clear that up so new comers to medicinal cannabis have the right idea from the get go.

Getting back on topic. I don't know the underlying motivation for the research being done by Dr. Meiri. Regardless, assuming the findings from this research remain public it could help others. Cannabis research is in its infancy when you step back and look at it as a big picture. With the slow but steady onset of legalization around the world that research is accelerating. If you decide someones research is going down the wrong rabbit hole, do your own or fund someone who can. Because negativity is a one step forward, two steps back proposition. For the sake of quelling argument to that statement, there is a difference between negativity and healthy debate using reason and evidence. I have yet to read healthy debate in this thread. If you wish to engage in productive debate based on reason and evidence, please take that up with Dr. Meiri as he would be the appropriate channel. If your thinking to yourself well I am not in a position to do so, yeah well exactly my point. : )

Thanks again for sharing this washtenaut. Please don't let the responses to this thread deter you from posting more. 

[Restorium2]

What bothered me is that Dr. Meiri should know better and most likely does know better. Nothing on washtenaut at all, other than being the messenger of something that bothers me. I apologize for any personal reference to washtenaut and I'm sure he feels the same about how he also attacked me personally. 

Check out gene therapy for a cancer cure.

[mishigami bear]

Right now, Oncology is among the most exciting and progressing fields of medicine today. Every aspect of cancer treatment has been improving by leaps and bounds. Surgery and radiation are becoming increasingly precise, with cyberknife and other technologies. Immunotherapy and medications based around the patients exact DNA are becoming standard.

If you or a loved one gets a cancer diagnosis, definitely consider the advanced cancer treatment therapies that are available. Cannabis oil concentrates can definitely improve quality of life, and even potentially help fight the cancer. But do not forgo conventional cancer treatment in favor of "faith" in RSO or whatever.

[t-pain]

10 hours ago, mishigami bear said:

Right now, Oncology is among the most exciting and progressing fields of medicine today. Every aspect of cancer treatment has been improving by leaps and bounds. Surgery and radiation are becoming increasingly precise, with cyberknife and other technologies. Immunotherapy and medications based around the patients exact DNA are becoming standard.

If you or a loved one gets a cancer diagnosis, definitely consider the advanced cancer treatment therapies that are available. Cannabis oil concentrates can definitely improve quality of life, and even potentially help fight the cancer. But do not forgo conventional cancer treatment in favor of "faith" in RSO or whatever.

Having seen my 84 yo Great Aunt do two rounds of chemo and have half of her face cut off, now shes in hospice... I would have to disagree with your assessment sir.

There are a lot of FDA treatments available, some that even increase the odds of survival by 10% but nothing that improves quality of life at all. 

Why these physicians scared my great aunt into chemotherapy and surgery for some total benign cancer ... all I figure is they want more $$$$$$$$$$$$.

Then the dr says she only has X amount of time to live, so of course she just fully believes that. I mean, Dr only tells her the truth, not assumptions and guesses. So she gives up and lays in a bed all day now. Instead of being active and running for the phone like usual.

 

I guess my point is , enjoy your life, dont spend it in the doctors office worrying about your next diagnosis.

[Restorium2]

Chemo is not a cure either.