Clones Not Technically A "plant"

[+JuztBudz]

Hi p.b., hope you are having a fine day...while section 7 does indeed cover a lot, no where in the MMMAct does it state what a plant is, so how can it rescind something that it does not address? I agree that we should not be limiting ourselves by attempting to define our law in any manner other than positive, however, we are all in the middle of one great "social experiment" here, and need to define some of the parameters, we need to be careful of how we interpret the laws, as most of these 'grey' areas will be determined in the courts. If the courts agree that these antiquated interpretations are bogus, so be it, however, since the MMMAct does not address this particular issue, is it really applicable to say that these old laws are "null and void"? You ask "why start now with medical marijuana patients?" and my answer is that the Act has taken away many of the avenues that the courts and police used to use against us, so they are trying to find the loopholes in the Act that will be used against us. Juzt because they have never used this "horse and buggy" interpretation of what a plant is, does not mean that they won't in the future, too many of the old methods of harrasing us are no longer tools that they can use, so they will "invent" new ones. Peace brother, j.b.

 

Hey jb!

 

I believe the old law does not apply. Any old harsh law, that was intended to punish people for a plant, does not apply to us. (last part of section 7 of our new law)

 

This old Michigan law has never been applied according to the letter of that law and never will be. It has never been literally applied in a recreational marijuana case. Those clippings in the trash .. a literal application would have every one of those clippings count as plants.

 

Never has been and never will be applied as written.

 

So why start now with medical marijuana patients? Why apply the law more harshly against patients than drug dealers?

[+mayorherb]

first of all..

 

We DO NOT want to start applying any forms of FEDERAL LAW to our Michigan law.

 

Second.

 

If you have the INTENT of making a cutting into a rooted clone than the state of Michigan intends to view it as a plant as that is the definition that is currently on the books.

 

Third.

 

I don't really care and will fight it tooth and nail in court that a plant has to have 1 root and 1 leaf in order to qualify as a plant.

 

This is the reason that I use aero-ponic cloning methods to ensure that I know exactly when they count.

I had told a friend bout this and he loves it, My self i am trying next time.

[peanutbutter]

Hi p.b., hope you are having a fine day...while section 7 does indeed cover a lot, no where in the MMMAct does it state what a plant is, so how can it rescind something that it does not address? I agree that we should not be limiting ourselves by attempting to define our law in any manner other than positive, however, we are all in the middle of one great "social experiment" here, and need to define some of the parameters, we need to be careful of how we interpret the laws, as most of these 'grey' areas will be determined in the courts. If the courts agree that these antiquated interpretations are bogus, so be it, however, since the MMMAct does not address this particular issue, is it really applicable to say that these old laws are "null and void"? You ask "why start now with medical marijuana patients?" and my answer is that the Act has taken away many of the avenues that the courts and police used to use against us, so they are trying to find the loopholes in the Act that will be used against us. Juzt because they have never used this "horse and buggy" interpretation of what a plant is, does not mean that they won't in the future, too many of the old methods of harrasing us are no longer tools that they can use, so they will "invent" new ones. Peace brother, j.b.

There are many places in the new law where the plant is cut.

Manufacture, harvest, cultivate.

 

All of those procedures are able to produce cuttings. None of those are defined within our new law as producing new plants.

 

The normal procedure to grow a plant will have you pruning that plant. We have a new law that allows us to do just that. The old law says we can not cut anything off the plant at all.

 

The two conflict. In fact if nothing at all is allowed to be cut off from the plant, then we can not have any marijuana available at all!! Every harvest would be illegal.

 

Folks try to apply that old law until they have to actually look at what the old law says.

 

They can not apply the exact letter of the law. It just can't be done.

 

So then you apply whatever you think should be applied. (you or a judge or a PA)

 

That is pure whim. And that is not what our legal system is supposed to be all about.

 

It is very easy to break your whim. Since that isn't in writing anywhere. Like in the written law.

 

Equal protection under the law .. -- violation

 

I agree that there is no place within Michigan law that determines when a plant is a plant.

 

That's the problem for the system. Not the defendant.

 

We can't agree that "it should be illegal so it is." We just can't afford to agree with leo that way.

 

We can't agree that since there is no definition about when a plant is a plant, that we should count them all.

 

We can not agree to assume a crime has taken place when the law is silent. Jail someone without any clear broken law?

 

Please don't do that.

[peanutbutter]

If you have the INTENT of making a cutting into a rooted clone than the state of Michigan intends to view it as a plant as that is the definition that is currently on the books.

"INTENT" IS NOT IN THE LAW AT ALL!!

Please read it. It doesn't matter what your intent is.

Intent is not a matter for consideration.

The only thing that matters: did you cut?

[peanutbutter]

How about "intent" this!

 

I take 25 cuttings and put them in rapid rooters.

 

My intent is to take the first 12 that pop roots and then destroy the rest.

 

WHAT IS THE "INTENT" THERE?

 

Answer: It doesn't matter. My "intent" is not an element of the law.

[Guest Wayne]

PB we all agree with your sentiments and views but I am merely stating fact as it currently applies under Michigan law as presented in court by the Tuscola County prosecutors office. We get no definitive answer in this case so it now unfortunately becomes some other defendants problem when raised by Michigan prosecutors. I'm not rich enough to push the envelope so I will do what I believe to be in my and my families best interest. Makes me feel a bit more righteous should I have to deal with LEO overstepping their bounds. Everyone else is welcome to do as they please as far as I'm concerned. But then I'm not LEO.

[clownkiller69u2]

i got some 4 sale !

[peanutbutter]

PB we all agree with your sentiments and views but I am merely stating fact as it currently applies under Michigan law as presented in court by the Tuscola County prosecutors office. We get no definitive answer in this case so it now unfortunately becomes some other defendants problem when raised by Michigan prosecutors. I'm not rich enough to push the envelope so I will do what I believe to be in my and my families best interest. Makes me feel a bit more righteous should I have to deal with LEO overstepping their bounds. Everyone else is welcome to do as they please as far as I'm concerned. But then I'm not LEO.

 

Wayne .. they simply decided to ignore the voters wish.

 

That doesn't establish case law.

 

That doesn't make what they did right.

[Guest Wayne]

I couldn't agree more PB. BS pure and simple. F the voters! No simpler way to state the true view of the opposition. One sad state of affairs in the Incorporated States of America!

[phaquetoo]

Hey who started this thread?

F T W

Peace!

P.T lol

[phaquetoo]

There are many places in the new law where the plant is cut.

Manufacture, harvest, cultivate.

 

All of those procedures are able to produce cuttings. None of those are defined within our new law as producing new plants.

 

The normal procedure to grow a plant will have you pruning that plant. We have a new law that allows us to do just that. The old law says we can not cut anything off the plant at all.

 

The two conflict. In fact if nothing at all is allowed to be cut off from the plant, then we can not have any marijuana available at all!! Every harvest would be illegal.

 

Folks try to apply that old law until they have to actually look at what the old law says.

 

They can not apply the exact letter of the law. It just can't be done.

 

So then you apply whatever you think should be applied. (you or a judge or a PA)

 

That is pure whim. And that is not what our legal system is supposed to be all about.

 

It is very easy to break your whim. Since that isn't in writing anywhere. Like in the written law.

 

Equal protection under the law .. -- violation

 

I agree that there is no place within Michigan law that determines when a plant is a plant.

 

That's the problem for the system. Not the defendant.

 

We can't agree that "it should be illegal so it is." We just can't afford to agree with leo that way.

 

We can't agree that since there is no definition about when a plant is a plant, that we should count them all.

 

We can not agree to assume a crime has taken place when the law is silent. Jail someone without any clear broken law?

 

Please don't do that.

 

P.B for Governor!

You got my Vote!

Free The Weed!

Peace

Jim

[GanjaWarrior]

air-layering is pretty much the safest bet. If you are a patient grower this would be the method of choice!

 

 

Amen ive been trying to tell peeps that! Its by far the easiest cloning method, and u dont cut it till its rooted...so no concerns over numbers when sharing genetics. i know those guys will scream about the ease of thier bubble cloners or whatever.... u know what? I got 30 clones going in less time than it took me to read the info on the cloner. new genetics for all...hash berry ak 48 ak 47 aurora indica.....

[phaquetoo]

Hi our Guru, Eric, has finished the installation of the banner rotation software, that will power the banner sponsorship program. We will have different prices based on banner location and size. We hope to launch this service in the next week or two. Thanks for your inquiry!

 

 

Well Thank You for the Info! Not quite what I was talking about. But I am glad to see you are giving people that option!

and I do appreciate this site and would realy like to see it grow and continue, I think it provides a Great Service to the mm community!

 

Free The Weed!

Peace

Jim

[phaquetoo]

We are building an arsenal to combat the state. They are attacking the law on every front. We are also going to be expanding the site to offer all sorts of educational opportunities as well as a telecommunications suite for our movement. We are fighting against the full force of the state. They are determined to destroy us. Our response will be to deploy technology that allows for the rapid dissemination of information, in formats readily available for use by the press. You will see many changes in the next few weeks designed to counteract their efforts. I think the community will be pleased. I will be keeping the community updated on our efforts via a weekly status report. We will not and cannot afford to fail. Thanks BB

 

 

Thats Awsome! Thank you for all of Your efforts!

Peace!

Jim

[Guest Wayne]

While I appreciate all the hyperbole is anyone/everyone at the MMMA building relationships with the local media around the state? Local reporters and even those at statewid publications are always looking for subject matter. Election cycle is coming up, now is the time.

[JohnB RPh]

Regardless of federal laws, Michigan has established what qualifies as a plant under its jurisdiction. We cannot pick and choose whose guidelines we are going to live under. We cannot say that federal law apply in this situation, yet say that another part of federal law, then does not apply. We live in Michigan, and need clarification of those laws, not further muddying of the waters by bringing in the federal interpretations. While the Michigan interpretation is somewhat messed up, it is Michigan's laws that we must abide by. While I would love to see the states interpretation challenged and the federal one used, it simply does not apply presently in this state....IMHOAnd...I am not a lawyer...Peace...j.b.

 

Lord knows I'm not a lawyer or constitutional scholar either, so I don't mean to open another can of worms with this question, but todays recent ruling concerning gun control in Chicago and JB's above insightful comments makes me wonder about something. I'm hoping deeper thinkers than myself on here can help me wrap my head around this thought. I'm fishing around here, I think, because I would guess our cause only loosely falls under the Bill of Rights. But ultimately, doesn't just about everything in some way fall under the Bill of Rights? If nothing else, the states right to govern themselves? It seems to me that todays ruling supercedes states rights to regulate themselves. Are such ruling just being applied strictly to the articles in the Bill of Rights like the second amendment? Could it affect states rights to pass and uphold state voted Medical Marijuana laws?

 

I feel I'm doing a poor job of expressing my concerns here, I wish I could do it better. It just seems that todays Supreme Court ruling could affect alot of things at the state level that are different from the views of the Feds, like Medical Marijuana laws.

 

Dangit, this deep thinking is giving me a headache.

[1337Gr33n]

So, let's pretend that clones "don't count" towards your 12 plants. Has anyone done the math on what kind of rotation leads to the largest production?

[peanutbutter]

So, let's pretend that clones "don't count" towards your 12 plants. Has anyone done the math on what kind of rotation leads to the largest production?

 

Harvest one plant per month. With seven or 8 months of veg time, each plant could produce one pound per plant.

 

Takes a lot of space.

 

This is one single plant that didn't produce a pound:

 

[greenbuddha]

I totaly respect your opinions and knowledge of the law!

 

What im wondering though Is can I advertise my services on here? In every one of my posts? Just wondering!

I am a liscensed builder, and id like to build every one in the state a Grow Room!

That would be sweet, Ill have a great experienced crew go do all the work, and when all these nice peeps get popped for growing legaly ( i realize there are some bad apples in our mm community). but hey im sure you will represent them,( so we could be kinda like partners) I build it, if they get raided, you defend them!

 

I dont give negs to any one, If I could give you rating I would give you a million ++++++++pluses

if your interested in my suggestion, maybe you could put my business on your post with yours!

 

That would be Sweet!!!

 

 

 

Free The Weed!

Peace!

Jim

 

 

Phaq,

 

Got your point completely!

 

Seems like the crap just keeps right on rollin' along doesn't it?

 

But I guess if everything was perfect we'd all be in heaven and not down here still sluggin' away at it.

 

Still looking for answers myself.

 

Maybe someday?

[lawyercaregiver]

Clones not technically a "plant"

 

The federal definition requires a marijuana cutting have roots, a rootball, or root hairs observable to the naked eye in order to be considered a marijuana plant. That definition is in the notes in the Guidelines at 2D1.1, note 17. There is case law that says essentially the same thing.

 

I think you mean to say UNROOTED CLONES are technically not a plant.

 

ROOTED CLONES ARE a plant and I am surprised you would suggest otherwise. Are you telling me if I have 1 mother and 23 clones- 11 in flower and another 12 in veg I am totally safe and legal? This is dangerous advice IMHO.

 

Root hairs observable to the naked eye appear on cuttings in just a few days (if all goes well!).