Lawmakers Work To Clarify Medical Marijuana Laws

[Morhawk]

http://www.statenews.com/index.php/article/2011/07/lawmakers_work_to_clarify_medical_marijuana_laws

 

 

Legislation introduced this summer has some Michigan residents worried that lawmakers’ attempt to clear up confusion would limit medical marijuana patients’ access to treatment Michigan law allows.

 

State lawmakers have realized a need to clarify the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act and are taking legislative action.

 

In June, a package of eight bills was introduced in the state House to address issues including zoning and the transfer of medical marijuana from patient to patient.

 

State Sen. Roger Kahn, R-Saginaw Township, also introduced a bill in June that would require a physician prescribing medical marijuana to a patient to have previously treated that patient for his or her ailment as well as require follow-ups with the patient to determine the marijuana’s effectiveness.

 

There has been confusion about the use of medical marijuana and it’s distribution that make such legislation necessary, said state Rep. Mark Meadows, D-East Lansing, who co-sponsored the House package.

 

“This has been an issue of concern in virtually every community across the state, so we better clarify (it),” he said.

 

State Rep. John Walsh, R-Livonia, sponsored one bill in the package that would require medical marijuana be transferred only through patients and their primary caregiver.

 

Walsh said he and fellow legislators are working to give users, doctors, caregivers, police and municipalities a little more direction on how to enforce the law.

 

“We don’t want to take away the rights, but we do want to define the issue,” he said.

 

But legislation such as Walsh’s has some worried patients no longer will have adequate access to the treatment the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act allows.

 

“You can’t take the individual patient’s rights to use medical marijuana away, and that’s what some of these bills are trying to do,” said Ryan Basore, director of public relations at Capital City Caregivers, a Lansing-based medical marijuana care clinic.

 

Basore said requiring that patients receive marijuana from only their primary caregiver could leave them without access to treatment for a time if their caregiver experiences crop failure, is inexperienced or if his or her crops need time to cultivate.

 

Patients no longer would be allowed to get marijuana from

dispensaries or fellow patients, making criminals out of sick people seeking medical marijuana from those they trust, he said.

 

Meadows said the legislation negatively could affect medical marijuana suppliers throughout the state.

 

“It might restrict the number of people who might actually dispense,” he said. “But the law wasn’t designed to benefit them, it was designed to benefit the people who use it.”

 

Although there likely will be controversy surrounding some bills in the package, Meadows said lawmakers hope eventually to have the endorsement of medical marijuana support groups as well as law enforcement officials.

 

Walsh said the package of bills will be taken up by the state Legislature this fall, allowing time until then for hearings and discussions in which anyone invested in medical marijuana in the state can share their concerns.

 

“I’m more than willing to work on any (issues proponents have),” Walsh said. “My intention here is not to stop legitimate patients from having access.”

[Dr. Bob]

Just to clarify things, Kahns bill calls for basically good medical practices in certifications (records, visit, follow up, record keeping). The problem with his bill is that it is required to report the visit to the primary care physician, but there is no protection for the patient to prevent the primary care doc from cutting off pain medications or tossing the patient from the practice for getting a card. It will cause chaos as patients scramble to find new doctors that will accept patients with a card, most do not. That is the senate bill.

 

Rep Jones in the house introduced a similar measure, it does not require reporting to the primary because only the primary care doc could write the certification. There reason for this is the doctor specifically must be seeing the patient for and responsible for the long term management of the patients medical conditions beyond just the certification. That means primary care doctor only. Telemedicine is specifically exclude, so are doctor patient relationships restricted to the certification of the patient for medical marijuana (the specialist model).

 

While calling for standards and notification as Kahn does, or requiring the use of the primary care doctor as Jones does are in themselves not bad ideas, will raise the standard of certifications, and will get rid of the no record mills that are simply selling signatures in exchange for an 'affidavit' claiming you are sick, they do not account for some problems.

 

There is no protection for patients with cards from being denied treatment for 'violation of pain contracts' or using an 'illegal drug per federal law'. The fact hospitals refuse to allow their physicians to write certification and general lack of participation of physicians is not addressed, and it would require all patients to undergo expensive but reasonable medical care. Not all patients would have the resources to do so. It would also take out most of the clinic currently doing certifications as they could not meet the standards, so certifications in general would go up in price due to demand and the loss of the 'signature mill' outlet that so many seem to depend on.

 

With some protection for patients and provisions that encourage primary care physician certifications (for example require certification by primaries upon demand from qualified patients, requiring pain contracts and practices to honor the card and exclude a positive test for MMJ as reason to discharge or cut off a patient) I could support the Kahn proposal. After all that is what I do anyhow, except notify the primary. It will get rid of the mills which is a good thing both from the aspect of medical standards and public perception that folks with hang nails and $100 can get a card on a street corner. I cannot support Jones as only primaries could certify and telemedicine is not allowed. Both provisions will bring certification to a screeching halt as 14 of 15 primaries have never written a single certification.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

Before any proposed rule or bill can be passed, it must pass a couple of tests:

 

What is the problem?

What are the reasons for and basis of the problem?

How does the proposed rule/bill make patients safer from prosecution?

How does the proposed rule ease access to medication?

How does the proposed rule/bill support the basic premise of the Act- Suffering patients should not only have access to medication but should be safe from prosecution and able to integrate marijuana into their health care program/medical care.

 

Example with Kahn's bill, clearly the better of the two

 

the problem is the perception that patients are going to mills that certify them without a medical basis. it seeks to promote the use of a more traditional (most likely primary care physician based) doctor patient relationship. It does not address why primary care doctors do not participate in the program- their employers will not let them. Nor does it protect patients from discharge or loss of care for making a legal choice in their healthcare.

 

it only addresses patient safety from prosecution by giving yet another way to not only have the card pulled, but the defense invalidated. There is no additional protection offered in return for this 'penalty' for non-conformity. Furthermore, doctors would be open to loss of their license if they honor a patient request not to notify the primary.

 

Other than denying the card the bill does nothing to support the ease of access or the basic premise of the Act.

 

Therefore we can't support it without modification. It only takes, restricts, adds risk with nothing offered in return.

 

Dr. Bob

[CedarSpringsCG]

I really think we need to address the "No P2P transfer" bill by using logic. If all P2P and CG2P transfers are illegal, then where does a newly signed patient get his first plant to grow? What happens when you have a disaster and lose all of your plants and seeds? You can't legally buy seeds from out of state, you can't legally mail order them, you can't transfer them, so the only way would be to sign up a CG you don't know, get a plant, and then remove them as the CG. How many CG's are up for that? Not many I am sure.

 

It draws out the process, and REQUIRES a patient or a new CG to break the law. Or, it makes it so only the CG's who currently have plants are the only ones ever allowed.

 

If we contact our reps and point things like this out, I think a majority of the bills can be squashed. I am working on a way to politely and politically correctly say, if you vote yes, you are a moron, one law cannot force someone to break a law to abide by another.

 

Cedar

[Highlander]

You can't legally buy seeds from out of state, you can't legally mail order them,

 

Why not?

 

If a patient orders seeds in the mail, and say the Post Office finds them, how can that patient be convicted under state law?

[CedarSpringsCG]

Why not?

 

If a patient orders seeds in the mail, and say the Post Office finds them, how can that patient be convicted under state law?

The US Post office is federal. It is breaking the law to send or receive contraband through the post office. Sending seeds for a Schedule 1 controlled substance is illegal federally, and is prosecutable. If the post office finds them, they send you a note, saying there was a problem with a package, please come to the post office to pick them up. Also, you have to realize getting them from out of state means it has to be federal because it is crossing state lines, possibly international lines. Not even the bill from Barney Frank/Ron Paul would protect you from that.

 

Try it, send some seeds to a friend, even inside the state, and put on the outside, "Fragile - Medical Marihauna Seeds inside". See what happens, but don't call me if the feds show up and arrest you.

 

And how can they be convicted? Federal laws don't care about state laws. They convict you on federal laws and throw you in a federal prison. No state anything there. Federal officers arrest you, federal prison holds you, federal judge sentences you. And trust me, the federal judges don't give a rats donkey about what is legal in our state, they care about what the federal laws say.

 

So the fact that we do have a state law saying you can grow, and you can't LEGALLY get them from mail order or out of state, there HAS to be a way to LEGALLY obtain seeds and clones and preferrably meds inside the state.

[Highlander]

The US Post office is federal. It is breaking the law to send or receive contraband through the post office. Sending seeds for a Schedule 1 controlled substance is illegal federally, and is prosecutable. If the post office finds them, they send you a note, saying there was a problem with a package, please come to the post office to pick them up. Also, you have to realize getting them from out of state means it has to be federal because it is crossing state lines, possibly international lines. Not even the bill from Barney Frank/Ron Paul would protect you from that.

 

Try it, send some seeds to a friend, even inside the state, and put on the outside, "Fragile - Medical Marihauna Seeds inside". See what happens, but don't call me if the feds show up and arrest you.

 

And how can they be convicted? Federal laws don't care about state laws. They convict you on federal laws and throw you in a federal prison. No state anything there. Federal officers arrest you, federal prison holds you, federal judge sentences you. And trust me, the federal judges don't give a rats donkey about what is legal in our state, they care about what the federal laws say.

 

So the fact that we do have a state law saying you can grow, and you can't LEGALLY get them from mail order or out of state, there HAS to be a way to LEGALLY obtain seeds and clones and preferrably meds inside the state.

 

Everything we do with marijuana in Michigan is against federal law, so I'm not sure why you single out buying seeds.

 

Which is more likely to get you thrown in the federal system -

 

1. Ordering seeds from Europe as has been done for years and years with few instances of people getting busted; or

 

2. Hooking up with someone from craigslist, a farmer's market, dispensary, etc. and get caught up in a federal sting.

 

Both scenarios are a longshot, but I'd like to know why everyone emphasizes that ordering seeds is against federal law yet openly talks about growing marjuana, selling at farmer's markets, p2p offers, etc. etc.

 

Somehow people have gotten comfortable with people knowing they grow 72 plants - even having photos in the press of their grow, yet they are paralyzed with fear at the thought of the PO flagging the package from Holland.

 

I don't buy into the notion that ordering seeds in the mail is "more illegal" than growing marijuana.

[Morhawk]

 

the problem is the perception that patients are going to mills that certify them without a medical basis.

 

Dr. Bob

 

Well, in that case, the state is basically saying it doesn't trust our doctors. But they can load me up with Vicodin and other liver pickling, addicting narcotics, but when it comes to a natural occurring medicine, hold the boat!

[Dr. Bob]

Well, in that case, the state is basically saying it doesn't trust our doctors. But they can load me up with Vicodin and other liver pickling, addicting narcotics, but when it comes to a natural occurring medicine, hold the boat!

 

It is saying it doesn't trust certification doctors as a direct result of quick buck marketing companies. They put ads in the paper offering $100 no record certifications, may or may not have a doctor on site, and run folks through in a cattle call. Anyone with dollar signs in their eyes that treats this as a joke and a way to make a quick buck at the expense of patient safety promotes bills like this by their seedy actions. Sending out bright green postcards 'outing you' as a mmj patient and offering to renew you by mail in exchange for money is example of the behavior these leaders are responding to. The restrictive bills they are proposing will hurt all patients just to get rid of these glorified marketing companies pretending to be medical practices.

 

The best thing we can do, to show we are policing ourselves, is get rid of these mills by not going to them. I am aware of one that is running scared now and may be facing criminal charges for violation of patient privacy and the medical practice act, but there are always others that will pop up when they are gone. Only you, the patients, can force them to close their doors and find another way to make a quick buck.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

MEDICAL MARIJUANA CERTIFICATION Only $100 Local Clinics Available now! No Records- No Problem. Call a local clinic.

 

That and the phone numbers are a typical ad out of mLive.com. You see a doctor's name? Or a clinic name? Just a phone number and a website. Little do you know that once you show up with no records, you have to pay $200, and fill out a 30 page affidavit saying you are sick. That just protects the doctor, if there really is one, from liability. You can't defend yourself with an affidavit, nor can you do anything about the 'bait and switch' advertising. This is the same group that took private medical records and used them to send postcards listing your name, address and medical marijuana status. They were also specifically listed in the Redden/O'Connell concurring decision that is causing so much trouble. You would have think they would have taken the hint and cleaned up their act. You would have thought the patients would have shut them down as a bad apple. But as long as folks want a cheap cert based on a wink and a few bucks, they will be around. And so will Jones, Kahn and the others.

 

These types of mills are the very reason we have these bills out there. Had everyone involved in certifications followed good medical practice and not tried to look at it as a license to print money, we wouldn't have to fight this fight, or at least we wouldn't have examples like this group to try and overcome.

 

Dr. Bob

[+EdwardGlen]

MEDICAL MARIJUANA CERTIFICATION Only $100 Local Clinics Available now! No Records- No Problem. Call a local clinic.

 

That and the phone numbers are a typical ad out of mLive.com. You see a doctor's name? Or a clinic name? Just a phone number and a website. Little do you know that once you show up with no records, you have to pay $200, and fill out a 30 page affidavit saying you are sick. That just protects the doctor, if there really is one, from liability. You can't defend yourself with an affidavit, nor can you do anything about the 'bait and switch' advertising. This is the same group that took private medical records and used them to send postcards listing your name, address and medical marijuana status. They were also specifically listed in the Redden/O'Connell concurring decision that is causing so much trouble. You would have think they would have taken the hint and cleaned up their act. You would have thought the patients would have shut them down as a bad apple. But as long as folks want a cheap cert based on a wink and a few bucks, they will be around. And so will Jones, Kahn and the others.

 

These types of mills are the very reason we have these bills out there. Had everyone involved in certifications followed good medical practice and not tried to look at it as a license to print money, we wouldn't have to fight this fight, or at least we wouldn't have examples like this group to try and overcome.

 

Dr. Bob

 

These card-mills are obviously not following guidelines set forth in the MMMA of 2008 so why is state allowing them to continue breaking the law?!

 

To prove schuette assertion the MM program is out of control and that people are gaming the system. Only person gaming the system is bill shuette! And HE should be held culpable!!

[Hempcheff]

I really think we need to address the "No P2P transfer" bill by using logic. If all P2P and CG2P transfers are illegal, then where does a newly signed patient get his first plant to grow? What happens when you have a disaster and lose all of your plants and seeds? You can't legally buy seeds from out of state, you can't legally mail order them, you can't transfer them, so the only way would be to sign up a CG you don't know, get a plant, and then remove them as the CG. How many CG's are up for that? Not many I am sure.

 

It draws out the process, and REQUIRES a patient or a new CG to break the law. Or, it makes it so only the CG's who currently have plants are the only ones ever allowed.

 

If we contact our reps and point things like this out, I think a majority of the bills can be squashed. I am working on a way to politely and politically correctly say, if you vote yes, you are a moron, one law cannot force someone to break a law to abide by another.

 

Cedar

 

Well said! I also think the strongest arguement that we have regarding cardholder to cardholder transactions, and i have yet to find anyone that can convince me otherwise, is found in a single sentence in the law

 

(j) A registry identification card, or its equivalent, that is issued under the laws of another state, district, territory, commonwealth, or insular possession of the United States that allows the medical use of marihuana by a visiting qualifying patient, or to allow a person to assist with a visiting qualifying patient's medical use of marihuana, shall have the same force and effect as a registry identification card issued by the department.

 

With "visiting qualifying patient" defined within the law for us:

 

(k) "Visiting qualifying patient" means a patient who is not a resident of this state or who has been a resident of this state for less than 30 days.

 

 

They are afforded the protections from our law. How then are they supposed to acquire medicine when they arrive in the state? No transport of their own medicine across state lines. Lets say a patient visits for 3 days for a funeral. Under his opinion, A patient, already established in another state would have to on day one of arrival, locate a caregiver that is interested in signing him on as a patient for less time than it takes the application to arrive at the state to be processed.

 

How would that even work? The patient would return home before he is even allowed to acquire medicine under our own application process. Since a caregiver cannot have a patient that resides in another state, there is no way to establish an uninterrupted supply of medicine for a visiting patient, which all patients are entitled to under the law. The only possible way for the visiting patient to acquire medicine, is through a cardholder to cardholder transfer

 

[Dr. Bob]

These card-mills are obviously not following guidelines set forth in the MMMA of 2008 so why is state allowing them to continue breaking the law?!

 

To prove schuette assertion the MM program is out of control and that people are gaming the system. Only person gaming the system is bill shuette! And HE should be held culpable!!

 

The question is, do we want a Schette style response to this, or do we want to get rid of them ourselves? Why are patients going to places like this? Stop and they will be gone, off to the next get rich quick scheme.

 

Dr. Bob

[Hempcheff]

anyone know if any visiting qualiying patients have been prosecuted for acquiring medicine here? I wonder why not....

 

CedarSpringsCG, on 19 July 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

 

I really think we need to address the "No P2P transfer" bill by using logic. If all P2P and CG2P transfers are illegal, then where does a newly signed patient get his first plant to grow? What happens when you have a disaster and lose all of your plants and seeds? You can't legally buy seeds from out of state, you can't legally mail order them, you can't transfer them, so the only way would be to sign up a CG you don't know, get a plant, and then remove them as the CG. How many CG's are up for that? Not many I am sure.

 

It draws out the process, and REQUIRES a patient or a new CG to break the law. Or, it makes it so only the CG's who currently have plants are the only ones ever allowed.

 

If we contact our reps and point things like this out, I think a majority of the bills can be squashed. I am working on a way to politely and politically correctly say, if you vote yes, you are a moron, one law cannot force someone to break a law to abide by another.

 

Cedar

 

 

 

Well said! I also think the strongest arguement that we have regarding cardholder to cardholder transactions, and i have yet to find anyone that can convince me otherwise, is found in a single sentence in the law

 

(j) A registry identification card, or its equivalent, that is issued under the laws of another state, district, territory, commonwealth, or insular possession of the United States that allows the medical use of marihuana by a visiting qualifying patient, or to allow a person to assist with a visiting qualifying patient's medical use of marihuana, shall have the same force and effect as a registry identification card issued by the department.

 

With "visiting qualifying patient" defined within the law for us:

 

(k) "Visiting qualifying patient" means a patient who is not a resident of this state or who has been a resident of this state for less than 30 days.

 

 

They are afforded the protections from our law. How then are they supposed to acquire medicine when they arrive in the state? No transport of their own medicine across state lines. Lets say a patient visits for 3 days for a funeral. Under his opinion, A patient, already established in another state would have to on day one of arrival, locate a caregiver that is interested in signing him on as a patient for less time than it takes the application to arrive at the state to be processed.

 

How would that even work? The patient would return home before he is even allowed to acquire medicine under our own application process. Since a caregiver cannot have a patient that resides in another state, there is no way to establish an uninterrupted supply of medicine for a visiting patient, which all patients are entitled to under the law. The only possible way for the visiting patient to acquire medicine, is through a cardholder to cardholder transfer

 

[Guest Happy Guy]

anyone know if any visiting qualiying patients have been prosecuted for acquiring medicine here? I wonder why not....

Patients can acquire anywhere they want to legally. Their supplier might be messed with. Most likely it will be just fine if the supplier isn't doing it right out in public. The suppliers need to stay out of the public view these days with Schutte in charge. Not so big a deal..... unless you want to sell out of a store.

[Morhawk]

The question is, do we want a Schette style response to this, or do we want to get rid of them ourselves? Why are patients going to places like this? Stop and they will be gone, off to the next get rich quick scheme.

 

Dr. Bob

 

I guess this is a good example of damned if you do, damned if you don't. The patients could stop going to these, but as you stated, how will they get certified if the primary will not do it. Just for clarification, I agree with you on these no record mills. But if those same patients got together and formed a line at a local primary caregiver, the pg may start to see the "value/need" for them to do it, but in the mean time the pt's are going without.

 

I have always been a fan of alternative medicine, I would rather shop at GNC or Zeeb's, than I would at CVS for medicine. My personal opinion is the marijuana falls into that category. I have crazy insomnia (basically just a horrible sleep pattern), I had prescriptions for "hypnotic drugs" like Restoril, that I might as well have taken coffee to try to sleep, but Valerian and Melatonin have worked for me. I know of a patient has nerve damage in his mandible from a tooth extraction. They gave him Neurotin (sp?) and kept upping his doses cause it would not work. When it flares up, he can't eat, talk, and basically can't do anything but lie there and cry. Guess what takes his pain away? And guess what his doctor(s) (as he has no insurance and they kept just pushing him to "specialists") would not sign off for? So in this case, would a it have been a bad thing? I mean, who needs a doctor to tell him that hey, your pain goes away after taking a few hits of marijuana.

To me it's the same principle as taking motrin. Heck, I stepped on a barn spike last week. The pain was incredible the first few days, but Motrin worked great. I didn't need a Doc to tell me, hey take some Motrin, come back and let me know how it feels. (Although, I debated going to the ER.. lol. But can't afford to pay someone to tell me to keep an eye on it and if this and this happens, come back)

 

As I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't..

[tutman2006]

The law makers are just doing the same thing they do for gun control. Which is that they don't like it (guns/MJ) so they do everything they can to make it painful to have the stuff!!

[CedarSpringsCG]

Everything we do with marijuana in Michigan is against federal law, so I'm not sure why you single out buying seeds.

 

Which is more likely to get you thrown in the federal system -

 

1. Ordering seeds from Europe as has been done for years and years with few instances of people getting busted; or

 

2. Hooking up with someone from craigslist, a farmer's market, dispensary, etc. and get caught up in a federal sting.

 

Both scenarios are a longshot, but I'd like to know why everyone emphasizes that ordering seeds is against federal law yet openly talks about growing marjuana, selling at farmer's markets, p2p offers, etc. etc.

 

Somehow people have gotten comfortable with people knowing they grow 72 plants - even having photos in the press of their grow, yet they are paralyzed with fear at the thought of the PO flagging the package from Holland.

 

I don't buy into the notion that ordering seeds in the mail is "more illegal" than growing marijuana.

 

Highlander, the point is not that you will get busted doing it, the point is that one law can not force you to break another. So buying seeds online is illegal, 100%, you cannot do it without breaking the law. No one will contest that, because the state doesn't control the post office, the feds do. So, you can't say it falls under State law, it doesn't, it is 100% federal.

 

It isn't about getting popped for it, it is about doing it legally. I got my first seeds from Canada. And when I am ready to try some more new ones, I will probably get them from attitude.

 

So, state law says I can grow. The state has to have a loophole or something in the law that allows me to get seeds. Since they CANNOT dictate what the Post Office can and can't do, there HAS to be another way to get seeds, clones, or meds. I HAVE to be able to obtain seeds/clones/meds in state, without crossing state lines.

 

Since the state has no dispensaries, no place to get seeds, no clones, no meds, then I have to be able to get them from another source without breaking any state laws.

 

Cedar

[Royal]

at least they're working.......

[Highlander]

Highlander, the point is not that you will get busted doing it, the point is that one law can not force you to break another.

Cedar

 

I still don't see the distinction. You more or less say that the MMMA would force a person to break federal law to get seeds, but the MMMA, in the same fashion, "forces" a person to break federal law in order to manufacture and obtain meds.

 

Getting seeds in the mail is againast federal law. Getting seeds from your registered CG is against federal law too. So I don't know how to apply the logic that one law can't force you to break another. You are breaking federal law every time you get seeds - no way around it - so it is 100% impossible to exercise one's protections under the MMMA without breaking one or more other laws.

 

But you're saying, "patients can't be forced to break federal law by getting seeds in the mail, but patients can be forced to break federal law by getting seeds from another patient?"

 

One way or another, you need to break federal law to participate in this program. For some reason, you are choosing to say "break any federal law except the one about getting seeds in the mail."

[Guest Happy Guy]

The question is, do we want a Schette style response to this, or do we want to get rid of them ourselves? Why are patients going to places like this? Stop and they will be gone, off to the next get rich quick scheme.

 

Dr. Bob

Good luck! Been trying to do this with dispensaries but there is too much money to be made. People want the cash, rules don't matter. Gonna have to let Shuette and the feds do it. Sit back and watch. Make sure you have a fat black line of separation when the do-do hits the fan. Show what makes you different and move on. Setting an example is all you can do.

[Dr. Bob]

While the Jones bill is a direct frontal assault on the intent and will of the Act, Kahn's uses the approach of a chess master. His is the more dangerous bill, because on its face, it appears to be very reasonable. We want high medical standards, and the provision for notification seems to follow the informal procedures used in any 'specialist consultation'. I send a patient to a cardiologist, he sends them back and I get a report. I DON'T, however, use the fact they got an echocardiogram from a cardiologist as a basis to stop giving digitalis to my patient or listening for murmurs. Nor do I tell my patient that 'Dr. Kahn treated your heart, now he can treat your diabetes and gout as well, cya sucker....'

 

Had he asked us, we would have told him about the real problems in certifications- the reasons primary care doctors wont participate and what happens to our patients when they go back to the pain clinic or the primary care doctor. Sure there are mills out there that don't follow good practices, but until the patients have a viable alternative they will continue to dupe patients away from legitimate certification clinics with their cheap prices and offers of no record certifications. Education of patients, not legislating them more risk, is the answer to the mills. So is encouraging primary care doctors to participate.

 

These bills do neither and only put people at risk of legal prosecution. The politicians are angry we the people told them this was the new law. Now they are simply trying to regulate it out of existence.

 

So are the courts. Every time a judge suppresses evidence, refuses to allow a medical defense or even allow a defendant to mention 'medical card' or 'medical marijuana' they short change justice. Every time a prosecutor fights to have a patient's medical status as a card holder suppressed, they are working to withhold vital information from the people charged with deciding the case-- the jury.

 

Let justice work. Let the jury hear ALL the evidence. They will make a rational decision. People shouldn't be afraid of their government, government should be afraid of their people. Keeps everyone honest and promotes justice.

 

Dr. Bob

[Highlander]

Since the state has no dispensaries, no place to get seeds, no clones, no meds, then I have to be able to get them from another source without breaking any state laws.

 

Cedar

 

What state law is broken when you order seeds by mail?

[Dr. Bob]

Good luck! Been trying to do this with dispensaries but there is too much money to be made. People want the cash, rules don't matter. Gonna have to let Shuette and the feds do it. Sit back and watch. Make sure you have a fat black line of separation when the do-do hits the fan. Show what makes you different and move on. Setting an example is all you can do.

 

Education is the key, so is attacking the root of the problem.

 

People go to post card sending mills because they are cheap, easy with no records, and patients don't know the difference between a mill and a real clinic. Primary care physicians don't write certs because they are not educated about marijuana and their employers wont let them write certs.

 

Patients are key to both. Better educated patients do not attend, or bolt from, 'clinics' that are more interested in getting their money and running them out the door. If the first thing the receptionist asks for is your money, if you don't see a doctor's name on the sign, or they ask you to sign papers confirming you aren't recording the visit or disclosing anything that is going on, run. As for the extra cost of a real clinic, tell you what, I can fix that and encourage you to educate your doctors at the same time.

 

It has always been my policy to give a discount if you bring a NEW card holder with you. That was designed to increase the number of cardholders out there and improve the odds of getting one on a jury. I am, from this moment on, going to give the same discount to anyone that comes in on specific referral from their primary care doctor.

 

Talk to your docs, if they are unwilling to write the certification and want a 'specialist' to do it, have them send you specifically to me, Dr. Robert Townsend 311 W. Michigan, Mt. Pleasant. On the referral form, have them ask me to evaluate and treat for cannabis therapy (or 'alternative' therapy if they are more comfortable) and I will do so. I will also send a report of my findings and recommendations just like any other specialist. The more they hear about cannabis, the more their patients ask about it, the more viable it will become to them. Perhaps they might start changing some procedures at their practices to allow for it.

 

Dr. Bob

 

PS, the purpose of sending a report to the doctor, other than it is a usual practice and is required in the Kahn bill (always think ahead folks), is to show the doctor that a certification visit is just like any other specialist visit. The first one or two will be on faith. Once they see that I actually evaluated the patient, came to logical conclusions, and made a reasonable recommendation, perhaps they will start thinking certifications are just like any other doctor visit, not a cattle call at a hotel to sell signature.

[CedarSpringsCG]

What state law is broken when you order seeds by mail?

Well, there is no state law that allows it, and since there is a federal law against using the US Postal Service to send or receive any cannabis material including seeds, you are therefore breaking the law.

 

Are you seriously arguing that it is 100% legal to send seeds through the mail? It isn't. Why are you TROLLING this? It is 100% illegal federally to send seeds through the mail. No if's ands or buts about it. You CAN be charged federally for it (although I agree they probably won't). But the simple fact is you CAN be.

 

So, without breaking a law, and no p2p or cg2p or p2cg transfers, there is no legal way to get seeds in the state. Period. If you don't trust me, ask a lawyer if it is LEGAL to buy seeds online. If the post office finds them, they will not deliver them.

 

Like I said, be a man, put "Fragile Medical Marijuana Seeds" on the outside of a package and send it to yourself. How much you want to bet it doesn't make it to you without being opened. And any seeds inside confiscated.

 

We aren't arguing if it can be done, or is done, I am saying it is not legal in any sense. And you can be prosecuted for it.

 

https://stamps.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/179/~/usps-content-restrictions

 

Items never allowed by the USPS

 

•Any item that is illegal under the laws of the United States of America