Lawmakers Work To Clarify Medical Marijuana Laws

[Highlander]

Well, there is no state law that allows it, and since there is a federal law against using the US Postal Service to send or receive any cannabis material including seeds, you are therefore breaking the law.

 

Are you seriously arguing that it is 100% legal to send seeds through the mail? It isn't. Why are you TROLLING this? It is 100% illegal federally to send seeds through the mail. No if's ands or buts about it. You CAN be charged federally for it (although I agree they probably won't). But the simple fact is you CAN be.

 

So, without breaking a law, and no p2p or cg2p or p2cg transfers, there is no legal way to get seeds in the state. Period. If you don't trust me, ask a lawyer if it is LEGAL to buy seeds online. If the post office finds them, they will not deliver them.

 

Like I said, be a man, put "Fragile Medical Marijuana Seeds" on the outside of a package and send it to yourself. How much you want to bet it doesn't make it to you without being opened. And any seeds inside confiscated.

 

We aren't arguing if it can be done, or is done, I am saying it is not legal in any sense. And you can be prosecuted for it.

 

https://stamps.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/179/~/usps-content-restrictions

 

Why do you keep coming back to federal law? You say because it is against federal law to cause seeds to be shipped in the mail, then there is no possible way to get seeds legally in Michigan without getting them from someone in Michigan. But the action of getting seeds from someone else in Michigan is also against federal law. So why are you drawing a distinction between ordering seeds in the mail and getting them from a buddy in Michigan. Both actions are equally prosecutable under federal law. Both actions are protected under state law.

 

On the one hand you say, "Don't order seeds in the mail. It is against federal law" and on the other you say "Get seeds from someone in Michigan, and even though it is against federal law, it is OK."

 

You seem to think I'm arguing that it is OK to send seeds in the mail. Not the case. I'm pointing out a flaw in your arguement, where you say that "because the ONLY way to get seeds would be to import them, which is 100% illegal under federal law, then there must be a way to get seeds in Michigan without breaking the law." Then you go on to say that the way to get seeds in MI would be to get them from a PT, CG, or dispensary. But you fail to also point out that getting seeds from a PT, CG, or dispensary is against federal law.

 

You are presenting a weird, circular arguement that "we can't get seeds without breaking federal law, unless we can get them from a PT or CG or dispensary, which is also against federal law" And it just doesn't make any sense.

 

State law protects patients and caregivers for acquiring and providing seeds and clones as well as receiving them in the mail.

 

Federal law prohibits patients and caregivers from exchanging seeds or clones or receiving them in the mail.

 

Section 4 of the MMMA provides protection to a patient or CG for obtaining seeds and clones from ANY source.

 

Section 8 of the MMMA provides a defense for ANY PERSON who provides seeds or clones to a patient or CG.

 

There is no need to wade into a convoluted theory of law that, implicitly, p2p or CG2CG seeds transactions are legal due to this “federally illegal to import seeds” thing resulting in no other way to get seeds. The actions are explicitly legal as provided in the MMMA.

 

You accuse me of trolling, yet it is your theory that is in line with the AG’s – that the Act doesn’t provide for a legal means (under state law) to give and receive seeds.

 

The Michigan Medical Marijuana Act protects patients and caregivers in the exchange of seeds and clones – registered or unregistered. It is as simple and graceful as that.

[Kevin]

We're not federal citizens and not even in a federal area. We're state of Michigan citizens, sovereign and freeborn, and that's one of the reasons the feds have been on us like a pitbull on a chuck roast.

 

If you read Article I, Section 8 of the original Constitution, you'll see it allowed for the creation of certain federal areas and a district for certain limited purposes:

"To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the united states, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dock-yards, and other needful buildings."

 

In a nutshell, the central government is limited in power and ability and its venue is restricted by the Constitution to the 10 miles square district now called "Washington, D.C." and its enclaves for forts and arsenals.

 

By law, not more than 10 miles square from Wash, DC are where federal citizens live. Only 600,000 people there in DC, they pay more taxes than 27 other states and don't even have the right to vote. Federal citizens and not state citizens as we are. The federal enclaves are the only place where democracy is allowed. All states are guaranteed a republic form of gov't outside of these designated areas.

 

State citizens are sovereign and possess unalienable rights at birth even without the Constitution, federal citizens only have priveleges granted to them by the feds and those can be taken away at their whim.

 

The Tenth Amendment clearly states:

"The powers not delegated to the united states by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." [ratified December 15, 1791]

 

The Constitution as we all know is an instrument for the people to restrain the gov't, not the other way around.

 

They can't even figure this out, so they need to keep their hands off our law. We understand, respect and adhere to the law. It may need clarification to them, but it's understood perfectly by us. But what do I know.

 

 

 

[end of rant]

[CedarSpringsCG]

Why do you keep coming back to federal law? You say because it is against federal law to cause seeds to be shipped in the mail, then there is no possible way to get seeds legally in Michigan without getting them from someone in Michigan. But the action of getting seeds from someone else in Michigan is also against federal law. So why are you drawing a distinction between ordering seeds in the mail and getting them from a buddy in Michigan. Both actions are equally prosecutable under federal law. Both actions are protected under state law.

 

On the one hand you say, "Don't order seeds in the mail. It is against federal law" and on the other you say "Get seeds from someone in Michigan, and even though it is against federal law, it is OK."

 

You seem to think I'm arguing that it is OK to send seeds in the mail. Not the case. I'm pointing out a flaw in your arguement, where you say that "because the ONLY way to get seeds would be to import them, which is 100% illegal under federal law, then there must be a way to get seeds in Michigan without breaking the law." Then you go on to say that the way to get seeds in MI would be to get them from a PT, CG, or dispensary. But you fail to also point out that getting seeds from a PT, CG, or dispensary is against federal law.

 

You are presenting a weird, circular arguement that "we can't get seeds without breaking federal law, unless we can get them from a PT or CG or dispensary, which is also against federal law" And it just doesn't make any sense.

Ahh, see there is the distinction.

 

So I think that's what I am trying to get at. The MMMA covers us from getting seeds/clones from inside the state, from a CG/P or dispensary. The MMMA does not cover anyone shipping seeds by using someone who is not a pt/cg. The MMMA does not allow for anyone to deliver, transport, etc etc that is not a CG or PT, unless they are doing so for a PT, which they can't know if they are or are not, so there is no protection for shipping from out of state even under the MMMA.

 

So, if you believe you are protected by the MMMA, you still can't break the law by having someone handle your cannabis seeds who is not a PT/CG.

 

Cedar

[Highlander]

Ahh, see there is the distinction.

 

So I think that's what I am trying to get at. The MMMA covers us from getting seeds/clones from inside the state, from a CG/P or dispensary. The MMMA does not cover anyone shipping seeds by using someone who is not a pt/cg. The MMMA does not allow for anyone to deliver, transport, etc etc that is not a CG or PT, unless they are doing so for a PT, which they can't know if they are or are not, so there is no protection for shipping from out of state even under the MMMA.

 

So, if you believe you are protected by the MMMA, you still can't break the law by having someone handle your cannabis seeds who is not a PT/CG.

 

Cedar

 

Interesting question: If I am sitting in my office in Michigan, MMJ card in one hand and credit card in the other, I own no marijuana whatsoever, and I get on-line and order seeds from Holland...

 

1. I am protected by Michigan law (I think so)

 

2. Did the sender of the seeds, in Holland, commit a crime under Michigan law for which he can be prosecuted under Michigan law if extradited?

 

Which leads to another interesting topic. Is it against Michigan law to import meds? If I'm a patient and I buy some marijuana in Ohio, and bring it across the border, was that an illegal act under Michigan law?

 

If I am in Amsterdam and I buy seeds and mail them to myself, is that a violation of Michigan law?

[Guest Happy Guy]

Ahh, see there is the distinction.

 

So I think that's what I am trying to get at. The MMMA covers us from getting seeds/clones from inside the state, from a CG/P or dispensary. The MMMA does not cover anyone shipping seeds by using someone who is not a pt/cg. The MMMA does not allow for anyone to deliver, transport, etc etc that is not a CG or PT, unless they are doing so for a PT, which they can't know if they are or are not, so there is no protection for shipping from out of state even under the MMMA.

 

So, if you believe you are protected by the MMMA, you still can't break the law by having someone handle your cannabis seeds who is not a PT/CG.

 

Cedar

Correction;

A patient can buy anything cannabis related from anyone they wish too...legally. Anyone at all. They are protected.

[CedarSpringsCG]

State law protects patients and caregivers for acquiring and providing seeds and clones as well as receiving them in the mail.

 

Federal law prohibits patients and caregivers from exchanging seeds or clones or receiving them in the mail.

 

Section 4 of the MMMA provides protection to a patient or CG for obtaining seeds and clones from ANY source.

 

Section 8 of the MMMA provides a defense for ANY PERSON who provides seeds or clones to a patient or CG.

 

...

You accuse me of trolling, yet it is your theory that is in line with the AG’s – that the Act doesn’t provide for a legal means (under state law) to give and receive seeds.

 

The Michigan Medical Marijuana Act protects patients and caregivers in the exchange of seeds and clones – registered or unregistered. It is as simple and graceful as that.

Actually it doesn't allow for the mail, because you have a postal worker who is handling cannabis seeds and delivering it to someone they do not know if that person is a PT/CG/ or just some pot head. So they can NOT be delivering it for medical purpose.

 

And you saying I say the MMMA doesn't provide for a legal means, YES IT DOES. It allows for us to transfer between ourselves, inside our state.

 

I would say the MMMA allows for trading of seeds and clones, and meds for that matter, between people inside the state.

 

It's like if you break into someone's home with a gun, sneak into their bedroom, and shoot them in the chest, you can still be imprisoned and convicted of conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder if that person were already dead from a heart attack several hours before. Same goes here, if you don't know you aren't commiting a crime, then the intention is that you are commiting a crime, so it is illegal. A postal worker doesn't know who you are, if you have a condition, etc, when they get the package in Chicago. The MMMA protects MICHIGAN citizens from prosecution, but it doesn't protect Illinois citizens from prosecution.

 

And then, you get into what Kevin said.

 

And Happy Guy, YES, you can buy it from anyone! However, you can't pay joe smith in alabama to hand it to Jim Bob in Arkansas, to hand it to Billy jo in chicago, to get it into Michigan. Which is what you are doing when you buy seeds out of the country. THE MMMA HAS NO PROTECTION FOR PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE STATE. So you are having people outside of the state, with no protection, breaking the laws of their state, to get it to you, and when you go into what Kevin said, the Fed's really have no jurisdiction according to our constitution of what starts, and stops inside our state.

[Kevin]

As the USPS is a federal agency, I would never consider shipping any beans through them. There are numerous private carriers ensuring successful delivery.

 

As a lawful patient, I'll get my beans or meds from any person or business offering them who has what I need at a price I can pay. I'll feel confident knowing that my acquisition of these items which are lawful for me as a patient to possess are protected by Michigan law. This is true even if I acquire the items from a person who did not possess them lawfully.

 

It's not that some legislators don't understand this, because the law is clearly written and they're not stupid. Patients don't find the law vague at all, and see no grey areas. They mostly know what law allows and what it doesn't and the rest are quickly learning the law and then teaching it to others. The medical cannabis law in Michigan is a compassionate law. Compassion is one thing thriving in Michigan as it is being practiced daily by patients and caregivers alike. Where there is compassion, there can be no intent to break the law.

 

Not concerned about federal laws here, as I fully adhere to the laws of the state of Michigan where I reside and am a sovereign citizen.

 

Bottom line, acquisition is lawfully protected in the state of Michigan by the People's Initiated Law 1 of 2008. Transfer is protected in the same manner by the same law. It's there in black and white. Not grey. [end of rant]

 

 

 

 

Peace and health in the cannabis community.

[Ms Chocolate]

What SB 506 requires are things I don’t get now from my long-term PCP. It also kills the Worker Comp and employment doctors. It shoots to hell what I would think would be a bona fide ER visit. Any rewrite of the term “bona fide doctor/patient relationship”, needs to apply to all doctor visit, not just those relating to a medical marihuana opinion.

[dirt_jump]

Interesting question: If I am sitting in my office in Michigan, MMJ card in one hand and credit card in the other, I own no marijuana whatsoever, and I get on-line and order seeds from Holland...

 

1. I am protected by Michigan law (I think so)

 

2. Did the sender of the seeds, in Holland, commit a crime under Michigan law for which he can be prosecuted under Michigan law if extradited?

 

Which leads to another interesting topic. Is it against Michigan law to import meds? If I'm a patient and I buy some marijuana in Ohio, and bring it across the border, was that an illegal act under Michigan law?

 

If I am in Amsterdam and I buy seeds and mail them to myself, is that a violation of Michigan law?

 

 

I think you're just not getting it friend. When your seeds come from amsterdam to michigan (sent by you or someone else) IF THEY FIND THEM they will send you a letter saying they had a problem with the package and you need to come "claim it". It will be federal agents who will arrest you. So when you pull out your Michigan Medical Marijuana card it is pretty much just a piece of plastic to the people arresting you. If you never have to claim the package that means they never found out. (which is why most people get away with it) But that doesn't mean you didn't break any laws. But it all comes down to claiming the package, that is basically you admitting what ever is in it belongs to you. Once you do this you will only being dealing with the government, no state courts, not even state prisons. Which also means no state-issued medical marijuana card. Federal law trumps state law.

 

As far as breaking federal law by obtaining seeds in michigan you stil are, but the difference is you have a little to 0 percent chance of the government finding out. This is because the usps is a federal entity. They are directly related, and mail crimes are a very serious thing. The usps workers are trained and looking for people to break the law in this way and are trained in calling in feds to arrest those who break them.

 

So my advice is if you want to get seeds from as obvious as a place as amsterdam, don't get too comfortable in that office. Bottom line not worth the risk...buy local clones.

[dirt_jump]

Can anyone please tell me any news on sb377 (requires the names of every patient and caregiver to be readily accessible by the police) I am not renewing my card until I see what happens with this new group of bills and am very anxious to hear any news.

 

 

 

 

 

Dj

[canoe42]

It is saying it doesn't trust certification doctors as a direct result of quick buck marketing companies. They put ads in the paper offering $100 no record certifications, may or may not have a doctor on site, and run folks through in a cattle call. Anyone with dollar signs in their eyes that treats this as a joke and a way to make a quick buck at the expense of patient safety promotes bills like this by their seedy actions. Sending out bright green postcards 'outing you' as a mmj patient and offering to renew you by mail in exchange for money is example of the behavior these leaders are responding to. The restrictive bills they are proposing will hurt all patients just to get rid of these glorified marketing companies pretending to be medical practices.

 

The best thing we can do, to show we are policing ourselves, is get rid of these mills by not going to them. I am aware of one that is running scared now and may be facing criminal charges for violation of patient privacy and the medical practice act, but there are always others that will pop up when they are gone. Only you, the patients, can force them to close their doors and find another way to make a quick buck.

 

Dr. Bob

 

The reason this is called the poor mans drug is because a lot of us can't afford to go to the doctor. I use only a chiropractor for my pain and they cannot recommend. So, where does that leave me? I used my chiropractor records for the last 7 years for my certificaton. But if they change this, now what?

[Musicianized]

So just don't go claim you package... If you know you have beans coming and the USPS wants you to claim the package, don't go get it.

 

 

While they are amending the law maybe they should address things like people being over their limit and losing all rights to use the MMA as a defense and being charged maximum felonys like they are a crack dealer on the street.

 

 

How easy is it to harvest a plant and be over 2.5oz? You won't really know exactly what it is until it's dried. What if you are 5 grams over?? You are now a felon? That is BS and needs to change.

[Dr. Bob]

The reason this is called the poor mans drug is because a lot of us can't afford to go to the doctor. I use only a chiropractor for my pain and they cannot recommend. So, where does that leave me? I used my chiropractor records for the last 7 years for my certificaton. But if they change this, now what?

 

Chiropractic records are just fine in my book. I do feel the need to call one thing to your attention. Marijuana is not free. It cost money to set up a grow, tend the plants, etc. If you buy it at a dispensary or from a caregiver, you are also paying alot of money for the meds. The cost of a couple of doctor visits (which you need anyhow, hate to miss a colon or breast cancer). Yes, it cost some money to do things right, but the cost is small compared to the benefit of the med and cost of growing or obtaining it.

 

Right now we are getting ready to launch a major project to address the needs of patients like you, regular medical care and pain management. It will not be free, but it is affordable. Stay tuned for details. It fills a need and makes my practice compliant with both the Kahn and Jones bills in case they pass.

 

Dr. Bob

[LongHairBri]

I think you're just not getting it friend. When your seeds come from amsterdam to michigan (sent by you or someone else) IF THEY FIND THEM they will send you a letter saying they had a problem with the package and you need to come "claim it". It will be federal agents who will arrest you. So when you pull out your Michigan Medical Marijuana card it is pretty much just a piece of plastic to the people arresting you. If you never have to claim the package that means they never found out. (which is why most people get away with it) But that doesn't mean you didn't break any laws. But it all comes down to claiming the package, that is basically you admitting what ever is in it belongs to you. Once you do this you will only being dealing with the government, no state courts, not even state prisons. Which also means no state-issued medical marijuana card. Federal law trumps state law.

 

As far as breaking federal law by obtaining seeds in michigan you stil are, but the difference is you have a little to 0 percent chance of the government finding out. This is because the usps is a federal entity. They are directly related, and mail crimes are a very serious thing. The usps workers are trained and looking for people to break the law in this way and are trained in calling in feds to arrest those who break them.

 

So my advice is if you want to get seeds from as obvious as a place as amsterdam, don't get too comfortable in that office. Bottom line not worth the risk...buy local clones.

ummmm.... you sound like you have NO idea what your typing. if intercepted, you get the dreaded "green letter" stating illegal items were removed with remaning items forwarded and if you'd like to discuss it, there's a number to call. I'm up to 3(so far)! 2 from the same address. NEVER has ANYONE been arrested for simply ordering seeds thru the mail. if you can even find a case I assure you that person told on themselves.

[medicinejeff]

Kevin : "We're not federal citizens and not even in a federal area. We're state of Michigan citizens, sovereign and freeborn, and that's one of the reasons the feds have been on us like a pitbull on a chuck roast.

 

If you read Article I, Section 8 of the original Constitution, you'll see it allowed for the creation of certain federal areas and a district for certain limited purposes:

"To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the united states, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dock-yards, and other needful buildings."

 

In a nutshell, the central government is limited in power and ability and its venue is restricted by the Constitution to the 10 miles square district now called "Washington, D.C." and its enclaves for forts and arsenals.

 

By law, not more than 10 miles square from Wash, DC are where federal citizens live. Only 600,000 people there in DC, they pay more taxes than 27 other states and don't even have the right to vote. Federal citizens and not state citizens as we are. The federal enclaves are the only place where democracy is allowed. All states are guaranteed a republic form of gov't outside of these designated areas.

 

State citizens are sovereign and possess unalienable rights at birth even without the Constitution, federal citizens only have privileges granted to them by the feds and those can be taken away at their whim.

 

The Tenth Amendment clearly states:

"The powers not delegated to the united states by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." [ratified December 15, 1791]

 

The Constitution as we all know is an instrument for the people to restrain the gov't, not the other way around.

 

 

 

Seriously spittin fire! Good stufF Kevin!!