Question For Folks Against Gun Control Laws

[Dr. Bob]

Where was everyone that's concerned about our constitutional rights when Bush started using "free speech areas" during the Iraq War?

 

Folks respond to questions of rights when they are rights they are interested in.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

Something along these lines is not unreasonable. We have a license to drive a car which requires training/certification. We don't just let anybody carry hazardous materials on our roads. Just because someone is in the military they don't just get a gun they must qualify regularly. Proper training and education seems like a good fit to some of the problems that we are facing. I like this idea and the comparison to aviation certs. It could allow more freedom to the people that can demonstrate their responsibility and competence.

 

I've been guilty of looking at this issue in black and white terms. We live in a grey world.

 

Good post. Not because you agree with me, but because you are willing to look at the issue and discuss reasonable ideas to solve perceived problems with the system while protecting the rights and privileges of those who want to explore the limits of those rights and privileges.

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

We've about beat it to death, but some of us are sure still having wild fun with it. I told ya it would be a fun topic.

[GregS]

Good post. Not because you agree with me, but because you are willing to look at the issue and discuss reasonable ideas to solve perceived problems with the system while protecting the rights and privileges of those who want to explore the limits of those rights and privileges.

 

Dr. Bob

 

Aw c'mon dbob. It is always great satisfaction to bring someone into agreement with sound argument. Competition for ideas is like that.

[GregS]

And now the media reports that the military and other police assets can be used to kill citizens.

 

I'm spoolin' up my Pratt and Whitney F100 twin turbofans and ramping up for a Viking takeoff.

 

 

If you look closely, you will see me hit my hash pipe just before wheels up.

 

Gotta defend the republic from the facists.

Edited February 7, 2013 by GregS

[MysteryMan]

c

 

 

Classify versus regulate.. To regulate you have to figure out what you are regulating and how you are regulating under specific circumstances. Classification is part of the process since you are not treating all things or situations as alike. So they can classify arms. The courts have said so and the same court has said you do have the right to bear arms. So you cannot just bear any arms. You can bear arms as regulation warrants. In my opinion the gun manufacturers do not want limitations on what ever weapons of destruction they can sell so that is the line they like to feed you. No don't take away our iron teats we need them to live as free men! You think it is about freedom its all about the money, They tell you that someone is going to take your gun, your magazine , your ammo away and they start the equivalent of a run on the bank. Sorry but you guys are tools.

 

The problem with guns is that they in themselves do not produce anything unless you are in the raping and pillaging end of things. So effort is made in their design and production and then we take our hard earned dollars and we buy guns. Now there are some guns that are valued as collectables but most modern guns are mass produced in large quantities. So they are not likely to go up too much in value if at all. So it is fair to say that unless you are in the business of trading guns then they are not going to make you money and they do not do any work. Unless you hunt. Other than that you buy a gun out of fear or to be aggressive with it. If people used their money to making things that increase our nation it would be better.. i do not see how guns do that. Progress in guns does not mean happier healthier lives. So they gin up fear and aggression against some nebulous enemy. Then they make sure they have lots of inventory and then they open up the doors.

 

Yawn. I almost decided to let your view go. Thinking instead maybe, just maybe someday you would realize your thoughts, instead I decided to prove my tool abilities Here goes:

 

Your post like my post are only productive to us, this said here let me respond.

 

My point, Does it really matter the caliber or design? I already pointed out the fact any weapon is being able to be declared an assault weapon. Only need intent to transfer a weapon into assault. Make model yada yada bears nothing else. Would a 5 round bushmaster be any less menacing? Would it be any less effective?

 

Now as for you not knowing about what's the real risk and ranting about guns. Yes anti gun people feel exactly the way you do. So do anti anything groups, be it anti pot or smokers. They don't see the overall effect of rights lost till there gone. The problem with proposing anything banned, has the risk that other bunny muffin follows suit real fast. Take a look at some of the items that the last gun ban wanted to propose. Take a look at our very own medical marijuana laws.

 

 

On your thought of collectible mass produced weapons, here look about for this Zastava Arms LKP-66. I bought one years ago for under 200. Try that now. By the way its on the list, its an sks variant, though specifically designed for hunting.

 

For your thought on my second amendment, read above, and remember that 2nd amendment was granted by the very same people who fought to set this country free, and to instill a right to defend as well as own weapons to do so. It wasn't granted to just me, it was granted to everyone. So in effect its not my 2nd amendment its ours. How do we care to see it walked over?

 

When the second amendment bill was written it didn't class weapons then due to what is avail today not existing then. It didn't regulate what guns were added to the bill, it never stated which weapons whether, blunderbuss caliber, pistol, long arm, or shortened. We can argue whatever you like about that bill, from todays guns didn't exist or what have you, the intentions were laid in the writing. In that writing, it bears reason why it was written, who it was written for with purpose and intent shown.

 

Now obviously laws from 200 years ago do need to be changed, but some do bear reason why they need protected.

People post old scripts of presidents saying sow hemp in farms, that was written over 200 yrs. ago, should we say, hmm, they were wrong we have pharmacies today we don't need hemp?

 

To prove I am a tool:

Your post also went with raping and pillaging. The 3 deer I shot last season so you know, went on my table. I merely pillaged the meat from them. In reality you could say the farmer (my uncle) was the one who was raped and pillaged by the deer, and I eliminated the problem. For the record I didn't rape them, none looked all that sexy to me, though my stomach did growl. I used an ak fwiw. My favorite of many guns in the safe.

I belong to P.E.T.A to, great group, people eating tasting animals.

 

I will skip the name calling, as any reference made about my thoughts of you would be incorrect. I refuse to argue whether I am an donkey, a tool, or just plain prick.

[mrd]

Yawn. I almost decided to let your view go. Thinking instead maybe, just maybe someday you would realize your thoughts, instead I decided to prove my tool abilities Here goes:

 

Your post like my post are only productive to us, this said here let me respond.

 

My point, Does it really matter the caliber or design? I already pointed out the fact any weapon is being able to be declared an assault weapon. Only need intent to transfer a weapon into assault. Make model yada yada bears nothing else. Would a 5 round bushmaster be any less menacing? Would it be any less effective?

 

Now as for you not knowing about what's the real risk and ranting about guns. Yes anti gun people feel exactly the way you do. So do anti anything groups, be it anti pot or smokers. They don't see the overall effect of rights lost till there gone. The problem with proposing anything banned, has the risk that other bunny muffin follows suit real fast. Take a look at some of the items that the last gun ban wanted to propose. Take a look at our very own medical marijuana laws.

 

 

On your thought of collectible mass produced weapons, here look about for this Zastava Arms LKP-66. I bought one years ago for under 200. Try that now. By the way its on the list, its an sks variant, though specifically designed for hunting.

 

For your thought on my second amendment, read above, and remember that 2nd amendment was granted by the very same people who fought to set this country free, and to instill a right to defend as well as own weapons to do so. It wasn't granted to just me, it was granted to everyone. So in effect its not my 2nd amendment its ours. How do we care to see it walked over?

 

When the second amendment bill was written it didn't class weapons then due to what is avail today not existing then. It didn't regulate what guns were added to the bill, it never stated which weapons whether, blunderbuss caliber, pistol, long arm, or shortened. We can argue whatever you like about that bill, from todays guns didn't exist or what have you, the intentions were laid in the writing. In that writing, it bears reason why it was written, who it was written for with purpose and intent shown.

 

Now obviously laws from 200 years ago do need to be changed, but some do bear reason why they need protected.

People post old scripts of presidents saying sow hemp in farms, that was written over 200 yrs. ago, should we say, hmm, they were wrong we have pharmacies today we don't need hemp?

 

To prove I am a tool:

Your post also went with raping and pillaging. The 3 deer I shot last season so you know, went on my table. I merely pillaged the meat from them. In reality you could say the farmer (my uncle) was the one who was raped and pillaged by the deer, and I eliminated the problem. For the record I didn't rape them, none looked all that sexy to me, though my stomach did growl. I used an ak fwiw. My favorite of many guns in the safe.

I belong to P.E.T.A to, great group, people eating tasting animals.

 

I will skip the name calling, as any reference made about my thoughts of you would be incorrect. I refuse to argue whether I am an donkey, a tool, or just plain prick.

 

Yes I am anti gun.Have a member of the family who was shot with one. I think you have second amendment rights even if I think the actual situation today is that guns are a poison in our society. So what do you think the well regulated militia pertains to?

 

You totally missed the point of the hunting and the raping and pillaging. I said hunting was productive, raping and pillaging for gain is wrong but it is used to gain by stealing) from others. Just talking about when a gun is used to give the owner some quantifiable benefit. the rest of the time it is either unused or used to be an aggressor , a defender or in some cases a marksman.but you cannot use it to build something. Guns are the tools of war. That is the design of the things. They are mostly designed to kill something. I simply think the government has the right to say enough.This is not beneficial for our society. You do not. We disagree.

[MysteryMan]

I think a well orchestrated militia pertains to Vaseline and orders, anyway you stack it someone's getting fornicated. Being an ex soldier, I suppose my view points are morbid.

 

That said, I lost quite a few friends due to guns as well. I don't blame the weapon. I blame the idiot that held it. This said, I have had a few die by car as well. Nonetheless, I don't deem that upon ford or gm for building them. Nor do I blame the world for rights inherited by founding fathers.

 

Want the truth, I particularly don't care for hunting. I certainly don't enjoy the kill, nor the stench of cleaning it. The aggravation of dragging it, topped with loading the thing. Only to realize I could buy burger for less time spent, and wasted. I as well at times, cant stand the taste, but such are things. Maybe its from my past in the military, I careless. I do enjoy the woods, and as my son noted I hadn't killed a deer in the 6 years we hunted together, so I took 3. I refuse to let my boy grow up not experiencing the time held honor of putting meat on the table, more importantly, enjoying camp. A tradition my family always had.

 

This said, yes our view points differ, but I certainly hate to think that every gun is a poison in society as you put it. Maybe its the people behind the weapon, not the weapon itself. Just a thought.

[cujo]

if every one was properly medicated we wouldn't need guns for protection. but we will always have this dispute won't we.

[mrd]

I think a well orchestrated militia pertains to Vaseline and orders, anyway you stack it someone's getting fornicated. Being an ex soldier, I suppose my view points are morbid.

 

That said, I lost quite a few friends due to guns as well. I don't blame the weapon. I blame the idiot that held it. This said, I have had a few die by car as well. Nonetheless, I don't deem that upon ford or gm for building them. Nor do I blame the world for rights inherited by founding fathers.

 

Want the truth, I particularly don't care for hunting. I certainly don't enjoy the kill, nor the stench of cleaning it. The aggravation of dragging it, topped with loading the thing. Only to realize I could buy burger for less time spent, and wasted. I as well at times, cant stand the taste, but such are things. Maybe its from my past in the military, I careless. I do enjoy the woods, and as my son noted I hadn't killed a deer in the 6 years we hunted together, so I took 3. I refuse to let my boy grow up not experiencing the time held honor of putting meat on the table, more importantly, enjoying camp. A tradition my family always had.

 

This said, yes our view points differ, but I certainly hate to think that every gun is a poison in society as you put it. Maybe its the people behind the weapon, not the weapon itself. Just a thought.

 

Well if this was a twilight zone episode you would get your wish and there would be a world full of guns and no people.

 

Have you ever read the writings of Ray Kurzweil

 

/. You can look him up. He is a real genius. You can see Kurzweil synthesizers at music shops and he invented a machine to read books to the blind that went from the size of a washer (Stevie Wonder got that one) but now is the size of a phone. Scary smart. He wrote a number of books. One of them is called "The Synchronicity is Near". The basic premise for the book is to quote the Buffalo Springfield "There is something happening here".

 

As you know there has been a lot of technological change in the world. Things that once were scifi can be bought down the road and when they break they are so cheap we throw them away. Or we just stop using them because something even better has come about. Am I right or am I right?

 

Okay i am now 60 years old. I have seen more change in my life that exceeds the total of all the advancements that have come before.

 

Things change right? Kurweil refers to the fact that not only is there more change the rate of change is accelerating. So at some point technologies that exceed whatever we can imagine happening will come about and cause overwhelming change for the human race. This from the guy who nailed when the internet would become a world wide phenomena and said it was no big deal he just extrapolated the base and the rate of change.

 

The point of the above is to point out in all this change, that we all live with people really have not changed very much if at all.

 

Face it we are still cavemen in how we react to things. Think of road rage. Or we are no more evolved than the people of the 17th century if you want to bring it closer to home.

 

Well look at what has happened with gun tech since the 17th century. At this point please excuse my dated awareness and incomplete knowledge of guns. Now, do a lot of people who go to Wal Mart and buy single shot muzzle loaders as their main guns? I think not. No they buy modern weapons. Except now those weapons have some really incredible capabilities. Unfortunately those capabilities involve speed, power, accuracy,and capacity.Cool in itself but in the end it goes to purpose. So now we have a situation where almost anyone can buy a gun that gives someone the power of life or death over many more at speed, than could be obtained let us say in the 1950's .

 

Now lets look at America. The population has gone up significantly . Three hundred 50 million people live here now. The point being in any given population there are going to be a number of unstable people people and a number of bad folks. More people more of those people.

 

I contend that most people are not going to grab their guns and go out and shoot classrooms of children. I think most gun owners would protect and help children. but there are now more madmen walking among us than ever. People still get angry and irrational. Except now in some cases people who otherwise would have done a decent enough amount of damage with weapons of lesser capabilities, now have access to guns with much greater capabilities and thus they get a chance to wreck much much more havoc than lets say 50 years ago.

 

And no human walking the earth (as far as i know) has evolved at the rate of our technologies.

 

Perhaps when we integrate with computers it will be more interesting.

 

I personally think that guns should have limited availability to the average citizen simply because it is a health hazard. The epidemics of violence are made all the more virulent by the easy access to guns legal and illegal.

 

Guns have limited use as a defensive, they are weapons not shields. You give me a magic ring that protects me from projectiles and I would happily withdraw from this discussion. Deterrence is not defense. It is a threat. I think we have reached a tipping point with guns where the capabilities of our weapons has exceeded our good judgment and abilities in their use.

 

So i agree with you that the problem comes from people but I disagree with you on not limiting guns from the very thing you say is the problem.

 

(I also think you probably smoke schwag!)

 

Thanks for the response.

Edited February 9, 2013 by mrd

[MysteryMan]

wow schwagg, cool thanks. I got some sage and catnip, I could mix in some rosemary and ragweed, want some. Either way awesome book you wrote. Care to write my auto biography?

 

You can blow a persons words around all you want. Either way I surrender, you outwitted me. You should perhaps sign up to be a politician, you got my vote.

[cristinew]

schwagg, when you lose you make up things,

[cristinew]

Sandy Hook Father Speaks on Gun Control and Violence

 

thanks

[cristinew]

[mrd]

No I put that comment about schwag as an obvious joke. Since i though I was being a bit heavy. Since there is so much name calling here. So I decided to lighten it up. I obviously have no idea about what ever he/ she smokes so how could it be anything but a joke. A laying down of the gauntlet to have a smoke off? I don't condemn the person although I disagree.

 

Ok heres the summation without the book. Our technology has outgrown us. Guns are evolving faster than the ability of people, as a group to handle them.

[MysteryMan]

No I put that comment about schwag as an obvious joke. Since i though I was being a bit heavy. Since there is so much name calling here. So I decided to lighten it up. I obviously have no idea about what ever he/ she smokes so how could it be anything but a joke. A laying down of the gauntlet to have a smoke off? I don't condemn the person although I disagree.

 

Ok heres the summation without the book. Our technology has outgrown us. Guns are evolving faster than the ability of people, as a group to handle them.

 

Fwiw, I read your book, twice. Well written, as I earlier said. Summation, short and sweet to the point.

 

Twice you slapped me with bunny muffin. I think if I recall I said nothing containing any name calling. If my feeble memory works, remember I yet to have a chip installed in my brain to keep me from Neanderthal way, I made a statement towards a few others to refrain from such.

 

Either way I am loading my schwagg in the bowl and lighting it. Obviously we agree to disagree. Do I harbor bad feeling for that? hell no, come on over share the bowl with ya.

 

Before I light that bowl, I am going head outside and fire off a few bursts from each weapon, as a salute to my surrender. If an ex wife or two runs across the front of me, I can claim I had nightmares from possible unmentioned sex acts from the past. Or till at least the chip gets installed and causes me stability.

 

Personally Mrd, a bit back, your posts contained a lot less personal attacks which lended to itself to make your points better. I believe somewhere that line was used as well, but since you opened the door.... Your Momma liked my schwagg, sorry bad joke. Well maybe not, possible, hell I don't even know if she smokes, if she does, hats off. If not my apologies. Peace

 

 

[mrd]

Your mama is so wide ....... I just get pissed off when I feel I get talking points rather than true opinions. So how far away are you? I am about 20 miles N of Brighton.

[nthlghts]

For all the liberal none Americans that believe the constitution is a suggestion. This is a nation of laws to you when it is convenient, you spout rights to grow where there are none, you are hypocrites. The law is the law and you are all violating federal law, so I guess the law will protect you since everyone follows it. The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, no hair splitting, no pompous liberal interpretation needed. Growing pot however is not a right. This site has become a place to push liberal agenda and attack anybody that does not agree with it.

 

Dr Bob and Mr D are over educated debaters that will flower away our rights. The constitution was written to limit the power of the federal government, get it, which means that the founders would have approved of high capacity guns since the feds have them. Now I expect you to bring up planes and artillery or some stupid bunny muffin, but it will fall on deaf ears, mainly because it is stupid and represents no common sense! Every law maker is sworn to uphold the constitution, and every citizen has an obligation to do so if they wish to keep running their mouth, as the constitution gave them that right!

 

And as a foot note for those that believe our right to bear arms will not protect us, Syria 60000 dead and still fighting, Afghanistan 80's Russia went home...

Edited February 10, 2013 by nthlghts

[mrd]

For all the liberal none Americans that believe the constitution is a suggestion. This is a nation of laws to you when it is convenient, you spout rights to grow where there are none, you are hypocrites. The law is the law and you are all violating federal law, so I guess the law will protect you since everyone follows it. The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, no hair splitting, no pompous liberal interpretation needed. Growing pot however is not a right. This site has become a place to push liberal agenda and attack anybody that does not agree with it.

 

Dr Bob and Mr D are over educated debaters that will flower away our rights. The constitution was written to limit the power of the federal government, get it, which means that the founders would have approved of high capacity guns since the feds have them. Now I expect you to bring up planes and artillery or some stupid bunny muffin, but it will fall on deaf ears, mainly because it is stupid and represents no common sense! Every law maker is sworn to uphold the constitution, and every citizen has an obligation to do so if they wish to keep running their mouth, as the constitution gave them that right!

 

And as a foot note for those that believe our right to bear arms will not protect us, Syria 60000 dead and still fighting, Afghanistan 80's Russia went home...

 

Gandi versus the British. The hated George Soros (but smart and virulently anti communist) donated photo copiers (a lot) to the old Soviet Union with the condition that they be publicly available. This in a land where the government used the control of communications to further control the population. He did this because he felt that if ideas were freely transmitted that it would hasten the fall of the Soviet Union. I think that many of the gun owners have some valid points but that they are incomplete.(They probably feel i do that too) We should look at history and examine all the ways that power is secured. One of the reasons to do this would be to find application to some other restrictions that most of us here think have been unfairly imposed upon us. Good thinking is applicable to many things.

 

Mysteryman. Sorry about the wives thing. Did you ever think those women were sent to punish you for your stand on guns?

 

Hahaha I'm sorry that was way too much fun to not say! You still smoke scwhag! ( Of course i can imagine us sitting around getting wasted and each admitting we both have some good points, that we both do not smoke s-hit, and that woman sometimes make us crazy!

Edited February 10, 2013 by mrd

[rhinoman]

hey how come no talk about the nutbag cop killin his own brothers? so cops should be exempt from the ban?

[cristinew]

yes even cops can snap,,, ban guns from them first ,,

[Dr. Bob]

 

Alright, who can tell me what kind of scope that is? Hint, I have one.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

For all the liberal none Americans that believe the constitution is a suggestion. This is a nation of laws to you when it is convenient, you spout rights to grow where there are none, you are hypocrites. The law is the law and you are all violating federal law, so I guess the law will protect you since everyone follows it. The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, no hair splitting, no pompous liberal interpretation needed. Growing pot however is not a right. This site has become a place to push liberal agenda and attack anybody that does not agree with it.

 

Dr Bob and Mr D are over educated debaters that will flower away our rights. The constitution was written to limit the power of the federal government, get it, which means that the founders would have approved of high capacity guns since the feds have them. Now I expect you to bring up planes and artillery or some stupid bunny muffin, but it will fall on deaf ears, mainly because it is stupid and represents no common sense! Every law maker is sworn to uphold the constitution, and every citizen has an obligation to do so if they wish to keep running their mouth, as the constitution gave them that right!

 

And as a foot note for those that believe our right to bear arms will not protect us, Syria 60000 dead and still fighting, Afghanistan 80's Russia went home...

 

See my previous analysis of the definition of 'arms'.

[mrd]

Your mama is so wide ....... I just get pissed off when I feel I get talking points rather than true opinions. So how far away are you? I am about 20 miles N of Brighton.

 

To further clarify here is a picture of how mystery man might look if he smoked my mmj. The dog on the left is me after smoking his. His mamma took the picture.

[cristinew]

I have no idea what kind of scope that is,,, but it is a cool vid

 

I think that Gatling gun was for sale on pawn stars for 55 grand

Edited February 10, 2013 by cristinew