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Longer Finish Time Than Before.?


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Is it possible that co2 is making the same clones of the same strains take longer to finish then it did without o2? Besides a bit of a heat issue its the only thing different than previous grows. There massive super crop plants that are just plan out of space and the new veggies are ready to be switched. Didn't expect this problem at all because of previous grows. Just when you thought you seen it all.lol I guess it not really a bad problem to have. These complain's are, no moo poo holding 14 to 16 Z's apiece.

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It could be your heat issue. How big was the problem?

 

I'll give you a datapoint though. At 1500PPM CO2 throughout flower (perpetual garden so 1500PPM the whole time) I never noticed any speedup vs. non CO2 on my old cuts.

 

HOWEVER

 

I cloned in a nonsterile environment for 2+ years, my clones slowly lost vigor, yield, and came to harvest later later and later and less and less. Not much vigor, not much yield, and not much later but I keep intense records and all three of these things are definately true.

 

All of these cuts were massively old when I got them, and had been nonsterile cloned for 10+ years and passed from grower to grower. I personally run cuts for as long as they are viable since I hate refreshing my genetic stock (old habit). Now that I was forced to refresh my stock, I am seeing indica dom plants come in legitimately at 55 days TOTAL 12/12 time, previous record was 60 w/o CO2 and "fresh" cuts, my old stock was pushing 70 days.

 

My advice is to take it for what it is. First step 100% environment control then let them mature and if they are too slow to work with your patient demands refresh your gene stock SLOWLY one plant at a time. For some that would mean cracking a single seed for every harvest interval (lets say you harvest 12 at a time so 11 old clones 1 new seed) or throw 1 new clone into the mix purchased from elsewhere and see if, at the end of your cycle, that new clone/seedling beats out something you already have in stock.

 

Nice job on those monsters dude!!!

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I'm not really but it was a very short lived problem. If its not the gas than heat has to be it. I'll see if I can PM you a pic. one of the East Coast's is over an lb.. Like I said there super cropped and there's 6k Watts on 15 plants, the sun doesn't have a thing on this room. Trust me your definitely not the first one to question this.lol

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Your talking East Coast Sour D correct? I know several breeders refreshed the ECSD clone only a few years back... Some came back with some massive yielders. If it's original ECSD most growers report that the cut is "getting old" i.e. too many unsterilized clone generations. Anyway ECSD is holy grail plant when you find a yielder FOR SURE. What's the grow system? Anything but RDWC maybe DWC maybe Aero/NFT with extremely deep chambers and I'm bumpin your percentile up to 99% with that low cycle time A++ hah.

 

I'm just talking cycle times here because you'd need to break 12LB on your 6K harvest (60-80 days of production if you are on a perpetual cycle and with that much yield you oughtta consider it) for me to even question what happens in your 6K room. Results not typical but I've seen 1Ks churn out 2 lb with moderate-high yielding kush hybrids in soil 130 day cycle times. 1.5lb / light still 180 days way more typical in soil runs all organic, and quite a good result IMO. But that's 4X plants per light not 2.5 /light and scrogged and 130 day cycle but in soil.

 

It's not the CO2 causing your issue. How are you gauging maturation? Trichomes? If Pistils / Color / Stank comes into play in your grow. Color is more important to my patients than trichomes, my Tri's are usually "too amber" at harvest goin by the books - my patients like it stonier and more colorful I guess.

 

Then look into your nutrient schedule or timing and quantity of any substrate amendments (OC+ dry added to hydro is an example, guano dry mixed in with soil is another example of substrate amendment).

 

A high Nitrogen level at the onset of flowering can also delay flowering a bit. If it was bad enough to actually see burn in the beginning of flowering it'll slow you down a week or two easy.

 

EDIT 180-->130

Edited by Guanotea1
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

T if your a yield junkie (I am I admit it, and so is MGO or he wouldn't have brought up yield) then you've been looking at individual plants their whole lives... with great anticipation for the final weigh in... you just KNOW within a reasonable range what the final yield will be. It's really just your mind doing some simple approximations based on density and volume. For example If your normally pulling in 1 oz, then all the sudden a plant is twice as big and just as dense, you'll figure out real quick you have something like 2 oz on your hands.

 

On the otherhand if you disregard density or you haven't had a hundred runs with the mindset of being a yield junkie your approximations will be all over the place.

Edited by Guanotea1
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G1 yes it is a newer strain of ECSD. The time is longer counting clone time. I was starting from fully rooted clones put into the veg. room. The other strains are White Fire #1 and 2, Alien Bubba (absolutely rock solid nuggs) and a lone true OG Kush witch will only pull about 8, gorgeous lady purple'n up nicely.

 

T-pain I'm estimating from the 2 previous grows with these strains in this room. These are actually bigger than the other runs. Like I said we are completely out of space. These girls look like OD plants, all but the OG are 4 1/2 feet tall and bent and broken over to fit as the lights can go no higher. This is a ton of light in little space all 6 1000's are stacked so tight there basically touching each other. Needless to say the cooling system is nothing short of superior. The reason we ran into a heat problem we tried running only one of the 3 A/C units trying to save a little on elec. during winter. This is a closed system with basically 0 outside intake or outtake with co2. We both do heating and cooling for a living. Helped many of growers get cool.lol This room is basically a show model to show what we can do. Climate is darn near everything!! To be honest we really surprised ourselves and its not done being fine tuned with this being only the 3rd. grow. Next when I get my new house will do it all over again but a little different, BIGGER. Our childhood dreams have come true. As I'm sure it has for a lot of us.lol

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depends on your C02 ppm. let me explain: Without knowing your room, lets assume it's sealed for conversation. Your plants will actually experience slower maturation without c02 augmentation. A mature flowering plant will consume 100% of 1500ppm c02 in a glad garbage bag  within a half hour, depending on ambient temp, plant health, etc. Typically there are around 400ppm's in normal outside air. The reason it all works so well outdoors is because of the exchange of fresh air at every square inch of every plant surface, an expensive and near impossible feat in an indoor grow room yr round, using fans etc. , but from the lack of oxygen, which is displaced by the c02.

At certain c02 saturation points life will begin to cease, not from the "gas" but from the lack of oxygen, which is displaced by the c02. Depending on exposer time to less than adequate oxygen(02) supply, other air breather will die, like nematodes, and beneficial bacteria. those deaths will affect plant maturation by decreasing the biological activity within the soil, and even plant physiology. Incidentally those levels of c02 would also be making you light headed after about 20 minutes exposure, so I doubt you're spending the money to over augment, and plants can safely consume 1500ppm of c02 during lights on, especially at elevated temperatures. I've seen cannabis growing in a greenhouse that was 104 in the shaded end, and they were stiff tall proud girls, .....try that in a room, without augmented c02. theres a chance you didn't provide enough for them even.   Look on to the next weakest point in the room, and repair each, until perfected, your plants know exactly what to do after that.

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This is our first grow with gas in this room. We all know if the environment isn't perfectly set up for o2 there's no reason to use it. Just a big waste of money. Like most gas systems this one is set up to spray by ppm and obviously at the idea time to not waste any exhausting. Even though our flower room exhaust's into the veg. room. Never took lack of ox into consideration. I really don't think that's an issue but I will be checking that. Thanks. Wouldn't take anything to suck in a little outdoor air.

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We're noticing gains from gas but I say not enough to care if we use it or not. Wouldn't hurt my feelings to scrap the whole co2 thing all together.lol I think we're getting darn near every gain possible from o2 with the system closed like it is. Once again never thought maybe its working to well to our disadvantage. Thanks again guys for your 2cents on this matter.

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Coco I consider a hydro medium.... So COCO DTW (drain to waste) handwatered is your hydro setup. Hydro basically just means without soil. Mine is Perlite DTW pump watered in veg then hand watered in flower until my soil plants work there way out of the system. DTW Hydro is the most reliable easiest hydroponic method. Super simple to automate too the only trouble is the drainage. Anywho

I get exactly what you are saying now... I fugged up my math earlier I meant 130 days 10 clone 60 veg 60 flower. That's the cycle I've been on since my soil days but I've brought it down considerably like 90-105 days without loosing yield. If I left them in for another 20 days I can see a LB popping up every now and then. Only problem is not enough space, and I prefer shorter cycle times with more plants since I have the plant count to play with but not the space ya dig?

You're on track on the high end yield wise for regular hydro (non rdwc or deep chamber nft aero). And Yah a lot of the newer ECSD are certified killer IMO. I think you'll enjoy that but as a fellow chaser lemme know how you think your cut smokes. My favorite right now all around is deadhead og and although it yields a lot for anything, esp. an og, it's no prime cut of new ECSD in the yield department. But... my patients like it better and it still does really good.

 Whats the deal ova there something don't add up with the ACs... I have one 1.5 ton Invertor Minisplit from High Seer ($1500 bucks self installed HVAC tech final purge) and, sealed, 4200W, basement, Propane CO2 burner and the AC barely does any work now to keep her at 82. Being an HVAC tech you know that High Seer Pioneer chinese units are close to bottom of the line. In the dead heat of the summer I tested it to see how low I could go and the answer was 62. So I actually have a bunch of spare capacity from just the 1 ac although I know it's better not to be in full tilt all the time.

Part of the heat issue actually comes from the horizontal hoods everyone runs. For as long as you DO keep those hoods and DO keep those massive plants you simply most try SCROG at a minimum it will cut down your trim time in 1/4 and it will probably give you more in the yield department...

I'm only telling you this because I've done all this before. Your like, almost at the exact same spot I was 2 years ago after 3 grows. Except i stayed in soil for longer believing (and still believing) that was the key to the highest quality. If you're anything like me you won't listen and you'll be keeping those horz hoods for a very long time but it's okay. If your a yield chaser you'll end up with trees in a checkerboard pattern with vertical 1000Watters if you're an efficiency chaser (more bud less buxs) you'll probably end up with 600/1000W vertical stadiums a la selfhemployed, if space is limited you might rock a VSCROG donut like myself, 600W gets you 1.5. The big issue with these systems are they are dangerous to anyone not being careful in the room (seriously) and it takes the right strain. The same cuts that kill it in my vert system are turds in horz and vice versa. Yeah you can always add more lights more plants to get to the yield but for me the efficiency thing is more like a hobby and a personal test. I mean on paper being cost efficient is not so important right now but I believe one day it will be.

And yea definately living the dream here my first grow was when I was 14 underneath the stairs at my moms house LOL T8 "grow" lights from home depot aluminum foil wrapped area. We had a blanket on the ground and a little useless dust filter for some reason. It actually did make plants grow until my mom put an end to that. Years later I helped her with a her legal grow hahaha....life.

Edited by Guanotea1
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I am assuming you have a controller to keep that CO2 at 1500PPM. If not just get that controller. 1500PPM IS EXTREMELY GOOD. Your plants will experience SLOWER maturation if running on fans alone than if your CO2 is setup proper with a proper controller.

 

That is both my opinion and the opinion of numerous academic studies on the matter and my interpretation of Grassmatches response above.

Just wanted to be clear on that don't even think for one second sealed and ac'd with supplemental CO2 is not the way to go. Anyone that says otherwise is either not on your scale, did not do the right research, does not understand math, is not plant count limited (as we are), or is in fast hydro like RDWC. For everyone else indoors the answer is sealed, ac'd and CO2 if and when you can afford it. 

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I loved the DM line for a few years. Only two systems used, dutch buckets and flood/drain. I settled on the F/L. It was a no brainer and the only system I could find "off the shelf" that didn't show a deficiency. I wanted simple, cheap, and DM fit the bill. I had no issues at all with a res change every 7, well water, no ph adjusting.

I did add silica. I spent the money and built the rooms with every bell and whistle, over insulated, over powered, and sweet. From the first harvest on all was exactly as predicted, right on time. Same 20 strains, over and over in a perpetual schedule that worked flawlessly, until, one week it didn't.

 

something went wrong. I saw deficiencies/lockout in one tray among the six different "pods" with individual reservoirs to accommodate the different stages of growth. res change was staggered to save my all at once labor. the bad one was new, turns out, even a new "batch" of DM. Then it started to happen, each successive reservoir would begin to produce fugged up plants ! It took me some moments of sobriety, and it hit me all at once.  I panicked with five patients to supply, and me. I changed/cleaned every reservoir, flushed every plant affected, and in a short time began feeding my bunnies plant after plant of strangely finishing plants, nasty reps of awesome strains. I was already a year into an organic approach(which I found too difficult in hydro) in soil with the worm farms etc. I was rockin it in dirt, and after trying another new batch of DM in a res, sided by side old jugs too, and the recent opened one again in DWC, I saw what I needed to stop using DM for good. I have an assortment of barely used nutrient bottles now, and will not revisit until I can reliably and easily do it with a no smell organic plan. I don't miss a thing now with dirt, and haven't mopped a drop since putting the pumps on the shelf.

 

DM quality control sucks period ! I don't give a fug if they had a bad day or if they fired that guy who mixed it wrong. I will not risk my patients supply, and the work it takes to reboot a system, or be a slave to another nutrient corp. (maybe)

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Wonder if you saw my post before I edited it.

DM is terrible. And so are all these filthy pig nutrient companies feeding at our troughs.... But capitalism and stupidity meet nicely in MJ nutrients. I am just as bad as the next guy. I would have preferred to just remain ignorant of nute profiles... and just found a product that would work both with my budget and deliver consistant and acceptable results.

 

That being said, I emulate DM lines nutrient profile with 4 or 5 dry salts (some combo some indiv. compounds like PK boost is just MKP and Silica is usually just potassium silicate). It took me 1 day to figure out their game, emulate their profile within acceptable error using HydroBuddy Software. My order was $150 for everything I think. I did not want to do any of this and DM could have had my business for years but they f'd up. My nutrients are 16X cheaper than DMs BASE line without the NEEDED!!! additives for good plant growth like silica and I was not price hunting or anything. To give you an idea of how cheap my 3 part is, I believe the distilled water I purchase to make a liquid concentrate (I use 15, 15, 15 ml A B C to keep it simple) is more expensive than the 0.6-2.5 lbs of salt I put into each bottle. You could tell the difference between complete nutriention that I am feeding them now (for pennies) over the DM stuff it's night and day. DM also had terrible pH problems whilst just sitting in the reservoir being agitated by a pond pump and I'm drain to waste so that's really saying something.

 

I know for a fact that I had (2X) bad batches of DM complete line one for flower one for grow just by the way the plants responded in both stages and the flower line yielded a pH of... 4.1 when mixed according to their own nutrient calculator. This really upset me. I was expecting it of course based on others bad experiences. I guess I should have listened but I rarely do.

 

I think the reason why you didn't see any def. with DM a recirc system is because DM was designed with recirculation and MJ in mind. So when their quality was right they were the top of the game in that system (pharm grade salts was a nice touch). Flushing 40+ gal (1 table!!) of nutrient rich water down the drain weekly I do have a problem with, especially when the product is priced like "Gold" :/.  I also don't like the idea of feeding the plants the same water again and again. In perlite I can see no advantage to keeping my marijuana roots soaking. My plants grew signficantly slower and weaker when sprayed 4X daily with a resultant runoff of 20%-40% total versus 1-2X daily with a resultant runoff of 10% total. The 1-2X daily with 10% runoff is DTW greenhouse standard. So as I get closer and closer to constant "wet feet" the worse and worse my garden performs.  The only reason I know recirculation is done in the professional greenhouse food production setting is to save water (completely negated by MJ weekly water changes). Operator preference is DTW all the way. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong

 

RDWC... I spent several months before I selected perlite DTW as a hydro system. $$ was no object, I was only going to buy my hydro system once.

 

SOOO many people, seemingly smart peeps with real clean setups, had their grows destroyed by root rot. DWC plants are destroyed quickly by root rot and spread fast but not even close to the spread of pathogens in RDWC. Don't get me wrong I'm sure there is a spot for RDWC in the future of cannabis growing - the yields are amazing. But without rather sophisticated monitering, dosing, etc equipment it just doesn't work for someone who occassionally leaves their grow a week at a time.

Edited by Guanotea1
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Agreed hyd. Systems are great for not being on the spot every day. I'm really interested in DWC myself but that will be something to spend time a.d money on at a later date. If it's not broke don't fix it is my motto. With our set up now you can't afford to take a day off, it is watched like a hawk every day. My other motto is keep it simple and don't over think things (experiment). Once you have the formula stick to it. I truly think too many folks make it way harder than it is. When ever I help someone get started I say its easy to do if you fellow the basics. Then I say its easy to screw up if you don't fellow the basics. I've seen guys that have banner crops on there very first grow and I've also seen guys that have done it for years make big mistakes over and over. One thing that is always the issue is that there making it way harder than it actually is. Way too many things can go wrong on there own for there to be ANY room for human error! I've been growing OD since I was 15 and have seen every possible thing that can go wrong go wrong. Way more things can ruin your season out there than the controled environment of ID. Trust me I am no expert at this ID thing. But OD maybe. LMAO. One things for sure I love doing both and there's always new things to be learned. Maybe someday I can quite my day job and do what I love full-time. You never know legalization is right around the corner.

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Agreed hyd. Systems are great for not being on the spot every day. I'm really interested in DWC myself but that will be something to spend time a.d money on at a later date. If it's not broke don't fix it is my motto. With our set up now you can't afford to take a day off, it is watched like a hawk every day. My other motto is keep it simple and don't over think things (experiment). Once you have the formula stick to it. I truly think too many folks make it way harder than it is. When ever I help someone get started I say its easy to do if you fellow the basics. Then I say its easy to screw up if you don't fellow the basics. I've seen guys that have banner crops on there very first grow and I've also seen guys that have done it for years make big mistakes over and over. One thing that is always the issue is that there making it way harder than it actually is. Way too many things can go wrong on there own for there to be ANY room for human error! I've been growing OD since I was 15 and have seen every possible thing that can go wrong go wrong. Way more things can ruin your season out there than the controled environment of ID. Trust me I am no expert at this ID thing. But OD maybe. LMAO. One things for sure I love doing both and there's always new things to be learned. Maybe someday I can quite my day job and do what I love full-time. You never know legalization is right around the corner.

 

I can ignore my aerocloner and RDWC system for 2-3 days at a time and still have great results...maybe the occasional fired bud that grew into a light..no biggie though.  I once left for a 4-night vacation with some leakage from my DWC system.  These slow leaks can be hard to trace and are easily confused with simple condensation...and this time I assumed it was condensation.  Turns out, once I got home I found out that there had been a leak, and my buckets were all down to about 1" of water/nutes.  But all of the ladies were still happy.  I also made another mistake.  I turned some of my flower timers to "always on" to make some last minute adjustments before I left town...and I forgot to switch them back.  So the flower room had lights on for nearly five days.  I experienced no noticeable harm.

 

Back in the day, I could ignore my handful of plants in soil for nearly a week at a time.  But there is no way I'd try to maintain a grow for five patients plus myself in soil....waaay too much monitoring needed.  If I were to grow just 12 for myself, I'd go with dirt and would have no concern driving to Cali and back and leaving the girls to themselves.  I have found that once you have things dialed in, you can take a break for a few days now and then.

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I was being a little over dramatic with the watch like a hawk every day thing. But like what happened to you, you gotten make darn well sure everthing is right. Things can be down right catastrophic. Such as what could have happened to 2 friends of mine. The A/C failing in the middle of summer and not bring there to catch it. The one was just during the day while at work luckily because it was in his home and darn near burned it down, of course the plants where fried but atleast the house wasn't. The other was up north on a 3 day weekend luckily this room was in a unattached garage not only where the plants done for but did have a small fire the ruined a good chunk of change worth of equipment. Needless to say they both have safety heat shut off sensors now. Something every room should have!

 

I'm most interested in getting a greenhouse set up with light deprivation. Got the perfect place for it up north in the hills away from sight. DREAM BIG BABY!!!! right? Like I said before legalization is knock'n on Michigan's door.;)

Edited by MgoKush
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