Growing With Led

[BlackMesa]

I'm curious if there are any other LED growers out there that would like to discuss LED growing techniques and methods. I have done my fair share of learning and experimentation and am looking forward to sharing the knowledge.

 

And please no negativity, if you don't like growing with LED's and or have heard bad things about it, you obviously haven't been keeping up with the technology as just about every decent panel released in 2011 has the ability to surpass it's HID equivalent.

 

If anyone is clueless about this lighting used for growing I would be happy to answer any related questions the best to my knowledge.

 

Thanks!

[tooldini]

BlackMesa I know things have changed alot with LED I don't use them to grow but have been reading about them in Mini aquarium reef use. I read there are some SUPER bright led available but they cost a little bit. There are many articles online about building LED panels for reef lighting and from what I hear many are getting great results growing corals with them. SO if it can be done good for reefs I am sure it can be good for cannabis

[hofner67]

They have them in street light form up to 225 watts. Would like to try these. Have used much smaller ones, 15 or so watts, at the edges and the plants have responded favorably.

[BlackMesa]

BlackMesa I know things have changed alot with LED I don't use them to grow but have been reading about them in Mini aquarium reef use. I read there are some SUPER bright led available but they cost a little bit. There are many articles online about building LED panels for reef lighting and from what I hear many are getting great results growing corals with them. SO if it can be done good for reefs I am sure it can be good for cannabis

 

The advancements in 2011 are incredible! All the good LED panels use 3 watt chips so the brightness and penetration extreme. They do cost more then HID but quickly pay for themselves with energy savings, cooling and the not requiring new replacements on Bulbs and ballasts. I believe coral LED lighting sparked the birth of the LED grow lights because it was quickly figured out that light could be concentrated and the spectrum's could be fine tunned to support coral life, interesting stuff!

 

 

They have them in street light form up to 225 watts. Would like to try these. Have used much smaller ones, 15 or so watts, at the edges and the plants have responded favorably.

 

Just make sure you choose a light that offers up 3 watt diodes as these are the chips that have the intensity and penetration to match or surpass HID lighting. Here is one of my favorite LED journals just to give you a hint at whats possible these days with LED:

 

LED Bud grown correctly!

[BlackMesa]

Thought I would share some tips, techniques and some theorys of growing with LED lighting. There aren't currently any orginized resources for growing with LED's and as I encounter issues or discover new growing techniques I will post them in this thread.

 

Here are a few interesting details of growing with LED lights:

 

Averages: I hate to toss averages around as LED tech is just so new and most journals out there had to endure experimentation in order to figure out the perfect conditions etc... But this is one of the most common questions asked, so here are some averages based on data Ive accumulated from research: low end = .5 GPW, average = .75 GPW, high end = 1.25 GPW. Keep in mind GPW = Gram Per Watt.

 

Low Temps: LED panels produce very little heat as up to 95% of the energy is converted to light rather than heat. This means less chance of high heat fires, less cooling equipment needed and a method to deal with hot summer weather in general.

 

Resin Increase: Just about every LED grow journal out there concludes the same thing...growing with LED's produces more resin. More research is needed to figure out if this is due to a reduction of environmental heat due to the cooler temps of LED's or because of the large amount of perfect spectrum's that are used in the LED diodes.

 

Light Bleaching: LED light is so bright that when placed too close to a plant top it can actually light bleach the plant, keep in mind that this has nothing to do with heat (no burning or damage) but just an overdose of high intensity low heat lighting. This is pretty darn interesting that a light can actually be too bright! Now once this technology advances to the point we can spread this highly directional light this has the possibility to become perfected lighting. This phenomenon could never be encountered with any other lighting as you would burn the plant with heat before you got to the point the plant was getting light bleaching amounts of spectrum.

 

Here are a few basics for growing with LED panels:

 

Soil preparation: Growing with LED's produces a fraction of the tempatures that growing with any other light and results in a very slow soil drying process. To counter this you will need to ensure you have an extremely light soil mix. It's often best to prepare your own and by using at least 30% perlite in your mix you can maintain a normal watering schedule. I have experimented with various mixes and have found that the following works best with the low temp grows of LEDs while allowing for a 2-3 day watering schedule: 40% organic potting mix, 40% Perlite and 20% Black Potting Soil.

 

Seedlings: LED light can be extremely overwhelming to young seedling so one should double the distance from panel to plant to avoid shocking them. Also note to stay away from Pete moss to start seedling with due to LED's low temps the Pete Moss virtually never drys out leading you to possible over-watering issues and or nute lockups. I learned this the hard way and have since suck with starting the seedlings with the same mix mentioned above with no issues.

 

Vegetative LED Growing: LED Panels give you complete control over vegetative growth like no other light. Since they deliver a concentrated amount of directional light with little to no heat you have complete control over height and node generation. LED lighting is the only lighting I have used in where it's possible to have "too many" nodes....mind boggling! Each panel is different based on it's physical foot print and it's actual wattage and experimentation is needed to find your strains sweet spot. Just about all LED panels that where released in the last year are 6 spectrum's so you can flower and veg with the same light without issues.

 

I will add to this informational guide as time permits.

 

Thanks!

[Shredder]

China seems to be where the next generations of led lights will come from. They are testing street lights now, and lighting factories with them. I recently read about some new equipment they are putting together to make the biggest LEDs ever made, so far it's just on paper, but they expect them to be huge but super expensive........shredder

[BlackMesa]

China seems to be where the next generations of led lights will come from. They are testing street lights now, and lighting factories with them. I recently read about some new equipment they are putting together to make the biggest LEDs ever made, so far it's just on paper, but they expect them to be huge but super expensive........shredder

 

As it is right now most U.S. LED company's will spec out LED panels and have them assembled in china. Currently the best and brightest diodes are 3 watt chips but 5 & 6 watt diodes do exist but are insanely expensive. Here is the shocker regarding LED's for growing, Current LED 3 watt diodes all ready max out what a plant can soak up, you basically can't get any more penetration without the new side effect of light bleaching a plant. As an example I currently use 2 - 240 watt LED panels that each actually only put out 140 watts each (this is due to a diode never running at its max rating or it will burn out) and placed any closer than 4 inches to the plant and I light bleach the plant. So anything brighter (more watts) and the only benefit you get is more coverage due to being higher up from the canopy and more diodes spread out to further the direct light foot print.

 

You can currently buy LED grow lights that go up to 1500 watts but what people are figuring out is since the light from LED's is so insanely directional you will get much more coverage at the same light intensity and same penetration by using an array of smaller wattage panels. Below is an example:

 

2 led panels that are each putting out 140 watts and have a direct light coverage of 2 square feet a piece will out grow, out yield a single LED panel running at 340 watts that have a direct light coverage of 3 square feet. This happens because the higher wattage LED panel isn't psychically that much larger than one of the smaller wattage panels and more diodes are crammed into only a slightly larger space. The higher wattage panel now further sacrifices penetration in exchange for coverage because it must be placed much higher above the plant canopy.

 

In a nutshell using multiple smaller wattage panels will outperform a single larger wattage panel. The advancement that are needed are lenses to spread the light not larger diodes, The larger the diode then 3 watts, the less efficient it will perform. There are plenty of field tests out there that backs this up. It's complicated and the information is scattered all about but I hope to log all the information that is needed in this thread to help anyone who considers this form of growing. Sorry if this was long and drawn out

[Shredder]

If i remember where I read the article I'll post a link. I think it was a financial article, but the gist of it was physically big led's with special lenses and that was why they needed this special equipment for their factories to start building them. The equipment was built in the states, and shipped to china, and there were no actual bulbs yet, but they are expected soon....shredder

[fabio1949]

Blackmesa-

Very informative, please keep it coming. I have not kept up on the advances, but where would you go to buy equivalents for 600/1000 wt HPS, what would you look at in brands, prices, etc. From what I have read, good, dependable ones aren't cheap--altho I understand that they are supposed to save on cooling, electric bills.

Thx again for all your knowledge

[BlackMesa]

Blackmesa-

Very informative, please keep it coming. I have not kept up on the advances, but where would you go to buy equivalents for 600/1000 wt HPS, what would you look at in brands, prices, etc. From what I have read, good, dependable ones aren't cheap--altho I understand that they are supposed to save on cooling, electric bills.

Thx again for all your knowledge

 

To mach up performance based on wattage to a larger HPS like a 600 or 1000 watt HID you will want to use multiple panels that don't surpass 180 actual watts per panel. For instance it has already been established that 3 - 180w panels used together will out perform a 600 watt HPS or alternatively you could go with 4 - 130 watt panels and be right there in the ball park.

 

I can't really recommend a brand because most perform very well these days and it all depends on what kind of budget you would have to make any sort of a recommendation. I personally use a brand that offers the cheapest price per watt for 3 watt diode panels on the market and the company is always around to answer the phone if I have a question or concern.

 

A high end 180 watt panel is right around $500 dollars and I think that's not practical even with the energy savings, lower cost of cooling & not needing to replace bulbs. I use 130 watt panels and can buy 2 panels for the price of a 180 watt high end unit so that's the path I take.

 

One thing is for certain, you can't go wrong with either if you can handle the up front cost of entry. Please also note how these lights are marketed is kind of confusing, most LED panels will be called a different wattage then they actually are. The panels are usually sold based on the wattage of the diodes and not the actual wattage output, this is because you can never run diodes at there max rating or they would burn out quickly. My panels for instance are sold as 240 watt units but the 3 watt diodes are under driven and actual output is 130-140 watts. I believe it's fair to market both ways because there is reasoning to each method but it is extremely confusing for consumers.

 

I think the sweet spot for these LED's is replacing a 400w HPS or no more then a 600 watter as the cost to replace a 1000w HPS isn't practical unless money isn't an issue.

[hofner67]

Where do you get your panels?

 

To mach up performance based on wattage to a larger HPS like a 600 or 1000 watt HID you will want to use multiple panels that don't surpass 180 actual watts per panel. For instance it has already been established that 3 - 180w panels used together will out perform a 600 watt HPS or alternatively you could go with 4 - 130 watt panels and be right there in the ball park.

 

I can't really recommend a brand because most perform very well these days and it all depends on what kind of budget you would have to make any sort of a recommendation. I personally use a brand that offers the cheapest price per watt for 3 watt diode panels on the market and the company is always around to answer the phone if I have a question or concern.

 

A high end 180 watt panel is right around $500 dollars and I think that's not practical even with the energy savings, lower cost of cooling & not needing to replace bulbs. I use 130 watt panels and can buy 2 panels for the price of a 180 watt high end unit so that's the path I take.

 

One thing is for certain, you can't go wrong with either if you can handle the up front cost of entry. Please also note how these lights are marketed is kind of confusing, most LED panels will be called a different wattage then they actually are. The panels are usually sold based on the wattage of the diodes and not the actual wattage output, this is because you can never run diodes at there max rating or they would burn out quickly. My panels for instance are sold as 240 watt units but the 3 watt diodes are under driven and actual output is 130-140 watts. I believe it's fair to market both ways because there is reasoning to each method but it is extremely confusing for consumers.

 

I think the sweet spot for these LED's is replacing a 400w HPS or no more then a 600 watter as the cost to replace a 1000w HPS isn't practical unless money isn't an issue.

[BlackMesa]

I use a Brand called "BlackStar" that is distributed from a New York based hydroponic supply company called Gotham Hydroponics. They perform well at nearly half the price of similar panels. They currently offer panels in sizes: 100W, 240W, 500W, 600W and an unlisted 900W panel upon request. I choose to start with this brand do to the low start up costs (compared to others) and proven results from various grow journals scattered about but there are even stronger performing panels out there but just "WOW" at the price!

[GanjaWarrior]

without throwing brand names.....caN you do a journal? id just love to switch over....can u show me something besides talk. thats all the info i can ever find on leds....talk.

[hofner67]

sorry about dragging the brand and distributor into this but their is a great disparity in pricing out there, like from 130 - 577 so far on equivalent wattage.

[Motorbuds]

without throwing brand names.....caN you do a journal? id just love to switch over....can u show me something besides talk. thats all the info i can ever find on leds....talk.

 

Same thing here, I have never seen any solid results on a consistent basis. What makes matters worse is that every other LED thread I've seen seems more like a sales pitch than a journal showing any real results.....kind of like this one

[muckaluckaroo]

Same thing here, I have never seen any solid results on a consistent basis. What makes matters worse is that every other LED thread I've seen seems more like a sales pitch than a journal showing any real results.....kind of like this one

 

...yep.

[hofner67]

I've looked into importing from China myself. I have seen the plants respond favorably(led white light), supplementing a hps. Willing to try a couple hundred watters in 4x4 tent for veg. Amazon has an led grow lamp for 138(100 watt). The industrial equivalent(street light), albeit white light; Ive been quoted 575 + shipping from a company in the states and about 275 direct from China. Both hundred watters. I am not sold on leds, but I would try....cheaper the better? I know this could lead to sales pitchyness, but the great disparity in pricing is important to note. Thanks for the tip on Gotham. I will see how their pricing compares.

[LongHairBri]

there was a grow journal for LED's, SARCASM> but it withered and died <SARCASM

[Guest knucklehead bob]

there was a grow journal for LED's, SARCASM> but it withered and died <SARCASM

 

Yeah , pretend we're in Missouri and "Show Me" .

[hofner67]

I am thinking that for a guy that grows currently under 400 watt metal halides, that two 100 watt leds may come close and I will try soon. I just don't want to spend big money. Prob could never replace with leds a 1000 watt mh or hps.

[hofner67]

If it doesn't work well, I am certain I'll use them to supplement and be satisfied, if I can get the pricing I want. Gotta scrape up the money. I am not here to profit.

[BlackMesa]

without throwing brand names.....caN you do a journal? id just love to switch over....can u show me something besides talk. thats all the info i can ever find on leds....talk.

 

Yes I would be willing to do a journal, I'm not currently in a position to give a best case scenario however. I am currently vegging from seed 2 local Michigan seedlings and had a very disappointing germination rate as these seeds where years old and not stored at the correct temps etc... I Just started germinating 4 Purple Widow seeds to fill in the gaps but If I don't end up with all 6 being females there no way I can show you a best case scenario for growing with LED's. I will figure out if I can get some clones in there to show you a decent grow.

 

I understand you being skeptical because the technology is very new and all the grow data is scattered all over and not concentrated in one spot.

 

sorry about dragging the brand and distributor into this but their is a great disparity in pricing out there, like from 130 - 577 so far on equivalent wattage.

 

I understand, I didn't want to mention anything about brand but It's hard to talk about whats practical and affordable without mentioning brands and models.

 

 

Same thing here, I have never seen any solid results on a consistent basis. What makes matters worse is that every other LED thread I've seen seems more like a sales pitch than a journal showing any real results.....kind of like this one

 

I hope your not referring any of my posts to a sales pitch, I stated when asked that I wouldn't recommend a brand when asked but I'm not about to be silent when asked what I have used either. I went out of my way to explain that you can't loose either way when growing with 2011 LED panels regardless of brand as long as a few specs are met.

 

If it doesn't work well, I am certain I'll use them to supplement and be satisfied, if I can get the pricing I want. Gotta scrape up the money. I am not here to profit.

 

It will only work well if you follow a few simple rules of shopping for LED lights and if you stray from the proven path you will not get the results your looking for. You need to make sure any panel you consider to have the following:

 

- Make sure any panel you consider is using 3 watt diodes. This is very important for penetration!

- Make sure the panel provides at least 6 spectrum's, panels do work with less but if you want results and the ability to veg, you will need 6+ spectrum's!

- Make sure the actual wattage output is at least 100 watts or greater. This is extremely important for coverage as LED light doesn't spread like HIP lighting and the larger physical panel, the larger direct coverage you will get.

 

 

At the very minimum I am confident that you will have found your new favorite veg light as you will have complete control of height & nodes! Everyone should keep in mind that most Hydroponic grow stores don't like LED's in general because they don't like the idea of selling a light at a small profit that doesn't require new bulbs, large cooling devices and ballasts. At least this is my theory as why many grow stores don't acknowledge this new growing technology.

 

If any of you want I can post a list of various LED journals that help figure out what matches or surpasses certain HID sizes. You can definitely surpass a 1000 watt HID using less watts with LED and this has been well documented on the HighTimes forums, thing is: It's very expensive to pull off!

[porcupine]

Watch out for commercial plasma lighting in the future. IMO, and it's just that, will probably be the real future of lighting technology, and that l.e.d. lights are just a stepping stone and will probably become obsolete sometime in the future just like Bluray is taking over the audio and video industry. It could still go either way and it will be awhile yet, as there's still a mixed opinion on the current generation of plasma lights (just like anything else) but I've seen studies that show they consume half the power of any other light currently out there, and they are coming regardless.

There is NO denying that the new generation of l.e.d. lights are MUCH better than the older ones. Being an old stony and soft coral reef guy myself, I can remember going from v.h.o. to h.i.d., then the power compact rage, l.e.d.'s and now seeing results with plasma in the high end range.

Keep us posted, as l.e.d.'s do have the right idea with the PAR lighting being dialed in correctly instead of just lumen and lux intensity.

[tooldini]

You guys could check these out for fun http://www.aquastyleonline.com/categories/LED-Lighting lots of reefers(aquariums guys) are getting into this and growing good looking corals. I am pretty sure they have 6500K bridgelux leds and they will basically make any kit you want. Prices seem pretty good.

[mrd]

The other interesting tech is induction lighting. Of course just like leds the dust has not settled and false claims are made, but it is interesting. Also there are people selling it for 2x what it might cost on ebay and the lights are the same. So be careful. There are you tube vids on it too.