The Tupperware Party Model

[Highlander]

Some of you are missing the point. Yes, a person can name a caregiver but what if the person can't afford to buy meds and wants to grow for himself. He doesn't want a caregiver to grow his plants but has a garden mishap where the crop is lost? What does this type of patient (or caregiver for that matter) do in the intervening months?

 

Will there be a special class of temporary caregiver that arises to help people in need for 4-5 months or so? Today dispensaries and farmers markets fill this need.

 

Instead of a CG growing 72 plants and taking overages to the dispensaries, he can grow 48 plants and mentor two patients, oversee their grow, and provide meds if the crop fails.

 

Caregivers who do not possess the plants are the solution to the problem you raise. And since we know all the CGs who went to the FMs can grow more than they need, then they won't miss those extra 24 plants.

[Dr. Bob]

Some of you are missing the point. Yes, a person can name a caregiver but what if the person can't afford to buy meds and wants to grow for himself. He doesn't want a caregiver to grow his plants but has a garden mishap where the crop is lost? What does this type of patient (or caregiver for that matter) do in the intervening months?

 

Will there be a special class of temporary caregiver that arises to help people in need for 4-5 months or so? Today dispensaries and farmers markets fill this need.

 

You are asking for solutions that don't exist. There are two ways to get meds. Grow them or have a caregiver grow them, or find someone to risk arrest by selling them to you.

 

It all goes back to what has been said all along. Stay within the system. Grow them yourself, or find a caregiver to grow for you. That was one of the main premises of the compassion club system, to help patients find caregivers and vis versa.

 

Don't get me wrong. I fully understand folks made poor decisions. They didn't bother learning to grow, didn't support their local clubs so they had access to caregivers. The dispensary down the street was always there until one day, it wasn't. That day was in Aug 2011. But still folks thought they could get around it, and made yet another poor decision. They didn't heed the warning shot of the CoA opinion, and all sorts of folks in here (the same ones that are busy telling everyone how their interpretation of the case has more validity than the SC's) lulled folks into the dispensary fold again.

 

Now the rubber is on the road. It is going to be a tough 3 months unless CAREGIVERS with slots step forth here, start a thread, and indicate their basic locations and types of strains with number of slots and take up the slack. As Mal noted, they grew enough to supply the dispensaries, now they have to step forward and supply patients directly.

 

That is your solution Wash.

 

Dr. Bob

[Highlander]

You have to remember that for some of us, this is more or the way it has been since the beginning, so we have already thought through and solved a lot of the problems.

[+Malamute]

I don't know how everyone else has been dealing with that issue,... but through the DCCC we always have caregivers that are willing to take on a patient and teach them to grow. I started the cycle by teaching everyone to grow for free and the only requirement i gave (to the capable) was that in return, they teach at least one patient to become a caregiver. It works. It takes alittle time to get the whole cycle working, but we started Jan. 2009 and it works for us.

 

So,.. to answer your question,... it can easily be dealt with within the system with only a minor delay if any. Patient says i am growing. Asks if we have a caregiver that would be willing to take them on as a patient and no plants and be able to supply that patient until their crop comes in, AND beyond if needed. We keep contacts for patients so they can speak with many caregivers and decide who will be best for them and when we have "special needs" patients, we try to narrow that list down for them to make sure they are contacting potential caregivers that can attend to that patients special needs or cicumstances.

 

It works. It is within the law.

 

I have other solutions as well that are within the law.

 

Bottomline, we help as many people as we can, we can help more and will.

 

We need community, organization and sensible legal solutions to make the CG work like a fine tuned..... well ya get it.

[+Malamute]

Instead of a CG growing 72 plants and taking overages to the dispensaries, he can grow 48 plants and mentor two patients, oversee their grow, and provide meds if the crop fails.

 

Caregivers who do not possess the plants are the solution to the problem you raise. And since we know all the CGs who went to the FMs can grow more than they need, then they won't miss those extra 24 plants.

You have to remember that for some of us, this is more or the way it has been since the beginning, so we have already thought through and solved a lot of the problems.

 

Exactly.

[+Malamute]

And may i add, that is EXACTLY what was taught on this website and by this organization in Dec. 2008 and the first half of 2009 for sure. Shortly after that, people always had an "angle" to work.

[Dr. Bob]

You had a warning shot across the bow with the CoA opinion on McQueen. There was NO REASON anyone continued to go to dispensaries or FM other than to buy a little time for their grow to come in or to try a different strain. The grows would be ready by now.

 

Next time, it would serve folks well to listen to those that know what they are talking about, rather than those that tell them what they want to hear. Mal is one of those people that knows what he is talking about. Type less, scheme less, and listen to what he says.

 

Sorry to be blunt, but sometimes blunt is needed.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

You know, since folks seem intent on gaming the system to make a little geld, why don't you concentrate your efforts on ideas to profit from bringing caregivers and patients together? That is a really good business model and has potential for immediate growth.

 

I would suggest looking for caregivers with extra meds available and a couple of open slots and then finding patients to fill those slots.

 

Trying to make the money by selling marijuana like a dispensary isn't going to work regardless of what you call the model. Stay with what you know is legal and use it as a basis for your model.

 

Dr. Bob

[+Malamute]

Well, i am lucky in my hypothesis in that i knew how these decisions have come down in previous states with identical/similar language as ours. I conversed directly with the people that actually wrote the law, and whattheir intent was. No need to hypothesize what the intent of the law is,... just call and talk to them directly.(MPP, Karen O'Keefe) They are super friendly and more than happy to answer serious questions. :-)

 

I wanted more. I wanted pt/pt. OH BOY HOWDY how i wanted pt/pt transfers. I mean seriously.... HOLY FREAKIN GRAIL if we got it.

 

But, i also knew what i knew and knew it was 99%+ unlikely.

 

*shrug*

 

Nothing to be happy or justified about here. It sux arse.

 

But, those of us that have abided have also created ways to work within the law to cover a new patient while they attempt their first grow.

[Dr. Bob]

I am most pissed about Green.

 

The only alternative is to promote the caregiver patient system. I would suggest we look to those who have always promoted it for guidance.

 

Take it from there Mal.

 

I'm done.

 

Dr. Bob

[+Malamute]

The reversal of "Green" is really really sucky suck sucky von suckiness.

 

It REALLY covered some issues for us. Seeds, clones and that desperation need of a joint. A patient can no longer help out a fellow patient legally(under section 4).

 

That sucks. It is now 2-3, if i recollect properly, on pt/pt without compensation in states with identical/similar language to ours. Rhode Island and Colorado allowed pt/pt no compensation and New Mexico, Hawaii and now Michigan have disallowed pt/pt w/no compensation.

 

*shrug*

 

That is the only one i was really holding out for and "Green" gave it to us, and the Supremes Taketh away. Prikteases!

 

;-)

 

On to the future by retracing our steps to the past...

[Celliach]

The issue isn't the planned arrangement as far as growing your own or naming a caregiver. It is all about the unplanned events. What if you are growing for yourself and you have a disaster and your plants die off? How long before the next crop would be ready? Too long, right? Or what if your caregiver has the disaster?

 

You can say that you can immediately name a caregiver and wait 20 days. But say, you really do want to grow for yourself and you only want this new caregiver arrangement temporarily. Do caregivers want temporary patients hopping with them and then back out?

 

Maybe compassion clubs are the answer, I don't know.

 

That's why it would be nice to be able to have two CGs.

[mibrains]

some of you guys make it out like it is so simple..

 

I wish it was..

 

i don't know how you make it work so well up in the UP mal.. but i can promise here in Iosco county there are 3 times more people looking for caregivers every week than there are caregivers available.

 

being a caregiver is a very difficult position...

 

almost not possible to do it as a full time career because there is not enough money to make it worthy unless you hammer your 5 patients on price.

 

it still requires full time hours...

 

it still requires a full time budget...

 

no matter what... and even if i want to charge more to offset my costs.. my patients can't afford it..

 

i am already giving it away practically..

 

be nice if my patients were not on disability...

 

first because they were not disabled..

 

but second because maybe they would have more income to help with their medical needs...

 

as it is.. $150 per ounce is a significant percentage of their monthly income.. and that's more than i charge for my services..

 

the farmers market was an excellent opportunity to spread that cost over a wider base of potential patients and help defer the costs for everyone. dispensaries as a whole were more about convenience.. but farmers markets were about networking.

 

there are few people who will step up to be a caregiver to help others for little to no money.

 

most will charge more money...

some will make that work..

 

i cannot.

 

already even at very reasonable cost per gram... my patients are struggling to get enough.. they can usually afford one.. but 2 ounces is nearly impossible because of their budget.

their pain requires it.. they can't afford to buy it.

 

pretty typical story here...

 

i hear it daily...

 

i want to be able to help more people..

 

but i am restricted to helping only those 5 i am directly connected to.

 

so...

quit patting your own back people.

quit fear mongering.

quit saying i told you so.

quit saying i didn't know about it at all.

 

we are exactly where we are today because of time and accumulated energy...

 

not because of dispensaries or farmers markets or any people trying to push the limits of anything..

 

we are here because of sick people that need our help.

 

cannabis works.

 

time to help sick people.

 

what do we do about it? find wealthy patients i suppose.. not to mention cancer patients usually are just signing their house and all assets over to get pharmaceutical relief...

 

is that what i should do?

 

i don't know... i don't have the answers.. i just felt miffed this morning so i ranted..

 

peace.

 

God bless everyone...

[+washtenaut]

A very good rant at that. Well said!

[Highlander]

Well said -

 

We have the same law we had four years ago. A lot of us looked at that law and thought, "what an awesome law," and we went to work. Some people looked at the law and thought, "dispensary," and they went to work.

 

A lot of us grow cannabis because we like to. But we get disgusted when the "free meds" patient rolls up in his new Mustang. A lot of good caregivers and old-school growers went back into the shadows during the "free meds" craze brought on by dispensaries.

 

I know a few good growers who would gladly sign a long-term, problem-free patient who is willing to pay a reasonable compensation under $8/gram. Or 2.5 Oz untrimmed for the price of 2. A lot of patients would probably welcome trimming their own buds to save a few bucks and be part of their own process.

 

A lot of time was wasted in Michigan with this "free meds" BS. Ask Tooldini. Poor fellow. If I recall right, he learned to grow for himself and when he was ready, he put himself out as a CG for hire only to run into one patient after the other asking for free meds.

 

If we spent a year in Michigan trying to make this law work, I think we'd make a lot more progress than most would imagine.

 

 

 

 

 

e are exactly where we are today because of time and accumulated energy...

 

not because of dispensaries or farmers markets or any people trying to push the limits of anything..

 

we are here because of sick people that need our help.

 

cannabis works.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Highlander

[+washtenaut]

I think that there will eventually be dispensaries in Michigan. It is just a matter of the politicians bestowing favors and their friends setting up state sanctioned facilities. The current setup doesn't allow them to make money or for the state to collect money. Obviously that could never work.

 

This was feeling so familiar and then I remembered that I wrote the following in a letter to the editor a long, long time ago.

 

 

The anti medical cannabis campaign has been going on for months in the press. They have been repeating the mantra from the politicians that the current law is so full of problems that the police and the judges are completely paralyzed with confusion. They have planted the seed that Lansing must come to the rescue in order to avoid anarchy in the streets. Please recall that before the latest court of appeals ruling prohibiting patient to patient transfers, the patients were generally content with their access, there was precious little actual crime tied to medical marijuana, and the children and puppies were all alive and well throughout the state

 

Soon it will be proposed by these same politicians that the current patient/caregiver system must be scrapped in favor of state owned growers and dispensaries. With state run facilities they will say that the patients will be protected and they won't have to deal with the black market anymore. Why didn't the people think to allow patient to patient transfers and even dispensaries? They did but the system of patients and caregivers approved by voters didn't allow for political favors to be granted or for state sales taxes to be collected

 

So where's the political power enter in? That is when these politicians will place themselves in position to decide who gets the lucrative growing and dispensary permits in Michigan. Those little favors granted by Lansing decision makers will be repaid somehow too....perhaps vacations, political contributions, jobs for friends, etc

[+washtenaut]

The problem with this tupperware thing is that you always need to find a lid and you can't always find a lid when you need one

[Celliach]

Some of you are missing the point. Yes, a person can name a caregiver but what if the person can't afford to buy meds and wants to grow for himself. He doesn't want a caregiver to grow his plants but has a garden mishap where the crop is lost? What does this type of patient (or caregiver for that matter) do in the intervening months?

 

Will there be a special class of temporary caregiver that arises to help people in need for 4-5 months or so? Today dispensaries and farmers markets fill this need.

 

Find a CG that will let you retain possession of your plants. Perfectly legal and Workable under the current system......and you can find a temporary CG if you need to. I've done it.

[Celliach]

i don't know how you make it work so well up in the UP mal.. but i can promise here in Iosco county there are 3 times more people looking for caregivers every week than there are caregivers available.

 

It was like that here too.......in the beginning. We spent a lot of time working many hard hours to get where we are now in our part of the UP. It certainly didn't happen overnight.

 

One of the reasons we have a jump on a lot of other areas is that we assumed the courts would rule this way from the beginning and started working on a model to help CGs and PTs that fell well within a conservative interpretation of the law.

 

Another reason is that Mal and I never intended to make money off of it. (Mal's not even a CG, he's only a PT.) There's a lot of hard work involved and there's no pay for doing it. Organizing the club for the last four years has been an exercise in altruism. The main reason he and I do this, beyond helping PTs, is to protect our right to grow at home.

[+Malamute]

Yea.

 

It is about starting a perpetual cycle of education.

 

In all honesty, if we can make 1 out of 5 patients a caregiver, the problem is solved.(generally).

 

To do this, you must first invest time and energy into teaching alot of people to produce medicine effectively for the least cost possible.

 

Then, have those people you have taught for free, teach at least one other person what i have taught you for free.

 

And the cycle begins. Next thing ya know, you have all those freakin Cg's who can't find enough patients and post in places like.... this forum... looking for more patients.

 

:-)

 

It is simple to do,... but it takes alot of work and effort, for no money whatsoever, to make it happen. Actually it has cost me money out of my own pocket to drive 60-70 miles each way to teach a new patient how to take care of themselves..OR teach a close family member of theirs or close family friend to do it for the patient. Ta'daa,....problems solved.

 

Now it isnt perfect. We could do a much better job i am sure. But, since we have taight so many people around here, our meetings are now filled with caregivers looking to help patients. For VERY reasonable prices. We even try to push caregivers to take on at least one "charity case" if they are able. THAT is how you help make things work.

 

:-)

[+Malamute]

Like, instead of complaining you cannot take care of any more patients because you have 5,... how about teaching either one of your patients to be a caregiver or or someone else to be a caregiver. You obviously have the time now since you are only taking care of 5 patients. :-)

 

Make it happen. Spread knowledge. By teaching one person to be a good caregiver, you have solved the problem for 5 patients.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Malamute

[mibrains]

truth of the matter is...

 

a lot of... most.. do not want to.

 

lets be honest..

 

it is quite a bit of work...

it is not hard to learn..

 

it is hard to do consistently... especially for sick people.

 

i wonder what the failure rate is...

 

i don't know much, but i know none of my patients are able to grow their own... one might be able to soon.. but the others are in living scenarios that wont allow it.

 

i am sure there are a lot of good humans out there we can teach to grow this medicine for practically nothing....

 

it has been defined...no non directly connected transfers... to many it was clear from the start.. but to many more it is difficult to adjust to.

 

we are here to help.

 

i will continue to help teach anyone who is willing to learn.

 

i just finally started using the simplicity of the KISS soil maybe 5-6 months ago and i can attest to the much better and so much easier way it works compared to the flora nova nutes i was using.

 

took me more time to learn how to "leave it alone" and just water them than it does to learn how to do it...

 

the yield is not the same as hydroponic and some other systems but the start up, taste, simplicity and ease of maintaining it has defiantly been worth the effort for me...

 

now i am exploring more organic solutions in other areas of my life.

[Chauncy Gardner]

truth of the matter is...

 

a lot of... most.. do not want to.

 

lets be honest..

 

it is quite a bit of work...

it is not hard to learn..

 

it is hard to do consistently... especially for sick people.

 

i wonder what the failure rate is...

 

i don't know much, but i know none of my patients are able to grow their own... one might be able to soon.. but the others are in living scenarios that wont allow it.

 

i am sure there are a lot of good humans out there we can teach to grow this medicine for practically nothing....

 

it has been defined...no non directly connected transfers... to many it was clear from the start.. but to many more it is difficult to adjust to.

 

we are here to help.

 

i will continue to help teach anyone who is willing to learn.

 

i just finally started using the simplicity of the KISS soil maybe 5-6 months ago and i can attest to the much better and so much easier way it works compared to the flora nova nutes i was using.

 

took me more time to learn how to "leave it alone" and just water them than it does to learn how to do it...

 

the yield is not the same as hydroponic and some other systems but the start up, taste, simplicity and ease of maintaining it has defiantly been worth the effort for me...

 

now i am exploring more organic solutions in other areas of my life.

 

 

Is it still legal to teach someone to grow? I believe Schuette interpreted the law to say that only a caregiver or patient can "see, touch, smell, or taste" the cannabis. So unless you are a persons caregiver you are not able to be in their grow room or to touch their cannabis. Naughty you!

[+washtenaut]

maybe that shaman guy will become real popular again. If I recall, he stayed just outside the door to your grow room

[Chauncy Gardner]

I am toying with the idea of becoming my wife's caregiver. The only thing that gives me pause is a fear I have that caregivers get more attention from LEO than patients do. Am I justified in my fears?

 

Also, if I become my wife's caregiver does this mean she can possess 2.5 ounces and that I can also possess 2.5 ounces for her? If she also becomes my caregiver, does this mean that she can possess 2.5 ounces for me as well as the 2.5 that I can posses for myself? If this is the case, then can we together possess 10 ounces at any given time? This would make things so much easier. I would be able to grow an amount that would assure an uninterrupted supply for many months. I wouldn't have to continuously grow a small amount to keep a supply. I would only have to grow a couple of crops per year.

 

In