Marijuana Triggered Deaths Of Two Men, Study Says

[SlowJustice]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/marijuana-triggered-deaths-of-two-men-study-says/

[phaquetoo]

Wow! as a person with heart disease in my family, I will most likely stop tabaco and smoking mm when the amblulance arrives lol!

 

But after.   you can bet I will be doing edibles and tinctures, but im sure I will quit smoking as my dad and brother did,  when they had their first heart attacks, I can always make me some mm suckers to help me with the physical part of cig smoking!

 

Thanks for the Thread Bro,  Nice find

 

Peace

[t-pain]

The cases involved two outwardly healthy young men, aged 23 and 28, who died unexpectedly after smoking cannabis.

 

i call moo poo right here and now. theres a lot of propaganda aimed at 20-30yo about smoking marijuana.

[in vivo]

At first I laughed, but the lead author seems legit. He's published a number of papers studying cannabis in relation to MS. All of them seem positive. Anyone with access want to hook me up with the pdf?

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379073814000541

[Wild Bill]

The cases involved two outwardly healthy young men, aged 23 and 28, who died unexpectedly after smoking cannabis.

 

i call moo poo right here and now. theres a lot of propaganda aimed at 20-30yo about smoking marijuana.

 

Autopsies showed that the younger man had a serious undetected heart problem and the older one had a history of alcohol, amphetamine and cocaine abuse.

[MiMedical]

It's a race to the first ever marijuana over dose induced death to be recorded on earth, someone will achieve it, but probably not in our lifetime...

[t-pain]

At first I laughed, but the lead author seems legit. He's published a number of papers studying cannabis in relation to MS. All of them seem positive. Anyone with access want to hook me up with the pdf?

studying 15 people ? thats not an appropriate sample size.

 

here you is go, this is the unedited manuscript before it was released. apparently 3 years prior.

 

http://www.medicinalgenomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Sudden-unexpected-death-under-acute-influence-of-cannabis.pdf

 

 

After exclusion of other causes of death we assume that the young men died from

cardiovascular complications evoked by smoking cannabis.

 

heh, assume?

[trichcycler]

 found this,

Nearly all medicines have toxic, potentially lethal effects. But marijuana is not such a substance. There is no record in the extensive medical literature describing a proven, documented cannabis-induced fatality.

  This is a remarkable statement. First, the record onmarijuana encompasses 5,000 years of human experience.  Second, marijuanais now used daily by enormous numbers of people throughout the world.Estimates suggest that from twenty million to fifty million Americansroutinely, albeit illegally, smoke marijuana without the benefit ofdirect medical supervision.  Yet, despite this long history of use andthe extraordinarily high numbers of social smokers, there are simply nocredible medical reports to suggest that consuming marijuana has caused asingle death.  By contrast aspirin, a commonly used, over-the-countermedicine, causes hundreds of deaths each year.  Drugs used in medicine are routinely given what is calledan LD-50.  The LD-50 rating indicates at what dosage fifty percent oftest animals receiving a drug will die as a result of drug inducedtoxicity.  A number of researchers have attempted to determinemarijuana's LD-50 rating in test animals, without success.  Simplystated, researchers have been unable to give animals enough marijuana toinduce death.  At present it is estimated that marijuana's LD-50 is around1:20,000 or 1:40,000.  In layman terms this means that in order to inducedeath a marijuana smoker would have to consume 20,000 to 40,000 times asmuch marijuana as is contained in one marijuana cigarette.  NIDA-suppliedmarijuana cigarettes weigh approximately .9 grams.  A smoker wouldtheoretically have to consume nearly 1,500 pounds of marijuana withinabout fifteen minutes to induce a lethal response.  In practical terms, marijuana cannot induce a lethalresponse as a result of drug-related toxicity.

  Another common medical way to determine drug safety iscalled the therapeutic ratio.  This ratio defines the difference betweena therapeutically effective dose and a dose which is capable of inducingadverse effects. A commonly used over-the-counter product like aspirin has atherapeutic ratio of around 1:20.  Two aspirins are the recommended dosefor adult patients.  Twenty times this dose, forty aspirins, may cause alethal reaction in some patients, and will almost certainly cause grossinjury to the digestive system, including extensive internal bleeding.   The therapeutic ratio for prescribed drugs is commonlyaround 1:10 or lower.  Valium, a commonly used prescriptive drug, maycause very serious biological damage if patients use ten times therecommended (therapeutic) dose.  There are, of course, prescriptive drugs which have muchlower therapeutic ratios.  Many of the drugs used to treat patients withcancer, glaucoma and multiple sclerosis are highly toxic.  Thetherapeutic ratio of some of the drugs used in antineoplastic therapies,for example, are regarded as extremely toxic poisons with therapeuticratios that may fall below 1:1.5.  These drugs also have very low LD-50ratios and can result in toxic, even lethal reactions, while beingproperly employed.By contrast, marijuana's therapeutic ratio, like its LD-50,is impossible to quantify because it is so high. In strict medical terms marijuana is far safer than manyfoods we commonly consume.  For example, eating ten raw potatoes canresult in a toxic response.  By comparison, it is physically impossibleto eat enough marijuana to induce death.Marijuana, in its natural form, is one of the safesttherapeutically active substances known to man.  By any measure of rational analysismarijuana can be safely used within a supervised routine of medical care

[t-pain]

hey where do i signup to test the ld50 of marijuana?

 

they'll put a big giant bag of weed in front of me and watch me smoke it all? and they'll pay me for this?

[in vivo]

THC-HS would probably be the only way to find out.

 

They certainly appear to be reaching, but it doesn't seem entirely out of the realm of possibility. I think the title is highly misleading. They state flat out that there are other possible explanations, and that any potential risks are low.

[t-pain]

if the conclusions of the study were that the act of coughing after smoking caused the weakened heart to stop, that could be a possibility. but thats not the conclusion.

 

in the study for the first guy, it says

 

Both lungs showed protein-rich oedema with several iron-
negative macrophages, severe blood-congestion with microscopic bleedings and a
cholesterol granuloma (Fig.2).

 

severe blood congestion is also known as Pulmonary edema. Pulmonary edema is often caused by congestive heart failure. When the heart is not able to pump blood to the body efficiently, it can back up into the veins that take blood through the lungs to the left side of the heart.

 

 

 

As there is no known medical history and as both cardiac chambers showed normal
thicknesses, we assume a dilatative cardiomyopathy as explanation for the hypertrophy of
the cardiac muscle. We concluded that death occurred most possibly due to cardiac
arrhythmia with cardiac hypertrophy and consecutive stasis-associated thrombus formation
of a small cardiac vessel under the acute influence of cannabis.

 

from wikipedia:

 

Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) is a primary disease of the myocardium (the muscle of the heart) in which a portion of the myocardium is hypertrophied (thickened) without any obvious cause.[1][2][3][4][5][6] It is a leading cause of sudden cardiac death in young athletes.[7] The occurrence of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is a significant cause of sudden unexpected cardiac death in any age group and as a cause of disabling cardiac symptoms.

 

"sudden unexpected cardiac death".

 

i mean, the study doesnt even attempt to address when either one of these people smoked last. or if they even ever smoked.

the first guy was found on public transport? is that a bus or a subway? if a subway, do you think running up/down a bunch of flights of stairs could cause a cardiac arrhythmia? i know whenever i'm on a subway, all those stairs leave me out of breath and a racing heartbeat.

 

 

 

In Case 1 signs of an underlying dilatative cardiomyopathy were found which makes a sudden cardiac death highly probable

so the guy with the bad heart dying suddenly is probable with or without cannabis? 

 

 

then it talks about rats being injected with thc. doesnt explain how the rats died. did the rats die from heartattack? why is that even in this study?

[t-pain]

now for case 2.

 

 

A 28-year-old male with a history of substance abuse (alcohol, amphetamines and cocaine

 

However, cocaine is associated with a number of cardiovascular diseases, including MI, heart failure, cardiomyopathies, arrhythmias, aortic dissection, and endocarditis.

https://circ.ahajournals.org/content/122/24/2558.full

 

 

 

Histopathological examinations of the heart showed several foci of single cell necrosis
(Figure 3) and a negative immunohistochemical reaction with C5b-9 antibody

 

Chronic cocaine use can lead to the above problems as well as to acceleration of atherosclerosis. Direct toxic effects on the myocardium have been suggested, including scattered foci of myocyte necrosis (and in some but not all studies, contraction band necrosis), myocarditis, and foci of myocyte fibrosis. These abnormalities may lead to cases of cardiomyopathy. 

 

 

case 2 just ends there "We concluded that death occurred due to acute global cardiac failure under the acute
influence of cannabis."

 

so his heart failed because he smoked weed. no explanation required. he apparently had a healthy heart, even after using cocaine and just dropped dead.

 

 

The presented cases highlight the potentially hazardous cardiovascular effects of cannabis in
putative healthy young persons.

 

so a person with an "underlying dilatative cardiomyopathy" and a person who abused alcohol, cocaine and amphetamines are both "healthy young persons". got it.

 

the study implies alcohol and cocaine are healthy and marijuana is toxic.

[t-pain]

btw i'd love to know the identity of these two young men. or see the actual autopsy reports.

 

i'd lay good money that these fellas were on some prescription drugs.

i say that because case1 has undoubtedly has had chest pains before. no medical record? what?

case2 sounds like the majority of people who use drugs and alcohol to medicate pain or mental issues.

 

i could be wrong, if any part of my analysis is incorrect or assuming too many things  please let me know.

Edited March 1, 2014 by t-pain

[in vivo]

The absolute risk of cannabis-related cardiovascular effects can be considered to be low, as

the baseline risk for most cannabis smokers is low and cannabis-induced changes are

transient8,18. The risk of myocardial infarction is elevated almost 5-fold in the hour after

smoking cannabis and declines rapidly afterwards14. Consequently, the relative risk for

cardiovascular effects is most probably increased within this period. Persons who are at high

risk for cardiovascular diseases are even recommended to avoid the use of cannabis15. The

intravenous LD50 for THC in rats is considered to be 28.6 mg (27.4 – 29.85 mg) per

kilogram31, corresponding to an estimated intravenous lethal dose in humans of around 2000

mg in total or 30 mg per kilogram3.

 

That's pretty much their whole argument imo. You can likely do all the tests that they ran postmortem, not find anything, and say "maybe cannabis raised their heart rate and blood pressure leading to a heart attack". That doesn't mean you title the paper "marihuana kills".

 

There is a considerable amount of research in relation to cannabinoids and myocardial infarction. Most of it good. But it's not out of the realm of possibility for someone extremely susceptible to heart attacks. Where as these guys point to the cannabis because it was lying around, I think chronic use of cannabis would indicate quite the opposite. I think chronic use suggests that they are less likely to have overstimulating the ECS. 

 

I hadn't initially noticed:

 

intravenous LD50 for THC in rats is considered to be 28.6 mg (27.4 – 29.85 mg) per

kilogram31, corresponding to an estimated intravenous lethal dose in humans of around 2000

mg in total or 30 mg per kilogram3.

 

I'm going to do some poking around. That number is wildly different from what pro cannabis cites, but I can't find a better study at the moment. I might need coffee. They shot them up with 99% THC in a solution of polysorbate 80. That undoubtedly increased bioavailability, and will have dissimilar characteristics to cannabis, or cannabis extracts.  

 

http://ebm.sagepub.com/content/136/1/260.short

 

I don't think you're off base. Other explanations can be offered. They say as much.

[pic book]

hey where do i signup to test the ld50 of marijuana?

 

they'll put a big giant bag of weed in front of me and watch me smoke it all? and they'll pay me for this?

here the link to the bong for 1500 pounds in one puff.   sssppppllhhhh.

they form put a mouthpiece on a tanker trunk of reefer, and immolate it with a 100 flame throwers