Which Way To Vote On Proposal 1 ?

[+Malamute]

I also haven't added in community college funding to that list... ;-)

[+Malamute]

I have also stated, if new business racing into Michigan actually ends up making up those funds in municipalities over the next 3 years,... I will eat my words and admit I am wrong.  I have already tagged this thread and will revisit in 3 years. :-)

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

I want to know what you are citing that indicates the state says it will only make up 80%?  Are you making that up or are you getting that from a source?

[+Malamute]

I am getting it directly from the state of Michigan.

 

Heh.

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

The state is making up 100% of essential services. You say they are only making up 80% of non-essential. So how much of a shortfall is that? I would guess that essential services makes up the great bulk of anything the PPT covered. You are saying that the shortfall is:  Total PPT  minus 100% essential services  minus  80% of nonessential services  = shortfall.  For the vast majority of cities in this state that is a very small amount of money compared to their overall budget.  Something they can easily recover through extra real property taxes on business property. 

[+Malamute]

Essential has been narrowly defined in this legislation as Police, fire, ambulance and jail.

 

I would guess around 1/3 a budget depending on municipality.

 

 What was it in the town you represented?

[+Malamute]

I would say cities will probably lose 2% of those budget items. That adds up quick. 

 

 And at least ya are realizing some sort of new revenue will be needed by many municipalities or service cuts or project funding cuts, water cuts, roads, sidewalks, parks etc etc.

[Restorium2]

Restorium2 I can't help but laugh at how wrong you are and how you persist in claiming to be right. At least you are dogged. Where did you get the notion that chairs and computers are depreciated to zero???  Nothing is depreciated to zero. This isn't income tax we are talking about and there is no set depreciation schedule.  Like I said do your research. Don't hit the google button and think that something that pops up from 16 years ago is helpful in this conversation or that your key words in any way are informative on this topic. The Michigan Constitution itself forbids a general depreciation as it applies to the PPT and businesses. The Constitution requires that personal property be assessed at TRUE CASH VALUE! If you have a chair and you can sit in it and it works then it isn't worth zero. There really is no point in arguing with you because you just make things up as you go along to fit your needs. Do your research. Read the Constitution and read the General Property Tax Act. They will both confirm that what I am saying is right. Your random web pages that put forth opinion and conjecture and outright untruths cannot support your argument. Heck whoever wrote those probably did exactly what you are doing. They just did a web search and adopted someone's else's misinformed opinion.

 

I researched the source. You research random web pages built by people with an agenda. You're wrong. Bite the bullet and move on. Unless you want to entertain me some more by pulling more flying monkeys out of your backside.

 

Gregs I certainly agree that many people evade taxes. But when we are talking about the end results of legal behavior then discussing how to illegally evade taxes isn't relevant to the conversation.

 

Malamute I understand that you are frustrated because many taxes are levied without any relatable connection to the item taxed. But does that mean we keep that system up or does that mean we should try and reform it? Local road repair should be funded in a manner that takes the largest chunk from the users of the road. That is logically where the money should come from. If you strive for a tax system that basically taxes those who benefit most from a particular item then you have fairness built in. If you are going to use state parks then you should pay an entrance fee, right? Sure some money should come from general funds because we all benefit from preserving land but those who actually use it should pay more to maintain sidewalks, roads, and other facilities in a park. If you disagree with that then there is no use of you or I arguing it because it is a philosophical difference and we don't agree.

The web page I put up is current and from the state of Michigan's tax web site help. And you say you have to laugh at it? I didn't pretend to be the expert, you did.

 

For tax year 2009 and subsequent tax years

 

http://www.michigan.gov/taxes/0,1607,7-238-46621_47361-173094--,00.html

Edited August 9, 2014 by Restorium2

[trichcycler]

I have also stated, if new business racing into Michigan actually ends up making up those funds in municipalities over the next 3 years,... I will eat my words and admit I am wrong.  I have already tagged this thread and will revisit in 3 years. :-)

tell me more of this "tagging" ?

[Restorium2]

You never did address the question of;

 

Why didn't we just fix the depreciation schedules?

[Restorium2]

I'll answer that one;

The state has hired outside consultants to review the current depreciation schedules; recommendations for change may be presented in early 1999. While schedule revisions probably will lead to an overall reduction in tax collections, some individual companies could see a tax increase.

[Restorium2]

Let me 'guess' a little further;

 

After the state paid outside consultants (in 1999) to provide suggestions on how to 'fix' the depreciation schedules, it was clear than some businesses would have to pay even more in taxes after the depreciation schedules were brought up to date. Those businesses lobbied hard to hide that research and go in a different direction.

 

Frank,

I know that you are going to say that this information is out of date. And you will also say that it's from a consumer watchdog group that is full of BS. I tend to believe what this one is saying because it makes a lot of sense.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Restorium2

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

Restorium2 I don't need to address the question of why we didn't "fix" something. You are making the assumption that your "fix" is the better option. I don't accept that premise. Like I said personal property isn't depreciated based on a depreciation schedule. that is something you made up out of thin air. The Constitution and the statute require assessment based on true cash value not some tax depreciation schedule that has no basis in fact. You told everyone that personal property is depreciated to zero cash value over time. That is 100% completely untrue and false. You are confusing the PPT with income taxes where depreciation IS relevant.

 

And I am not talking about that state website that gives a brief overview of credits. That is useless to the conversation. I already told you that personal property was subject to tax credits against income. It is those tax credits that will disappear with the PPT which means all of that money goes back into the state general fund.

 

Malamute as I have said all along the state takes in the same amount of revenue. There doesn't need to be a new revenue stream for the state.  Any shortfall to a city can easily be made up by business real property taxes which is where that burden should lie to begin with. Or the state can kick in as it already has for years and years. You are pretending that the state did this as a "money grab." It needed revenue so it decided to take it from the cities. But you ignore that the state has been kicking in on city budgets all along as you pretend like the state will now just turn a blind eye to cities. How did the majority of cities survive with basically NO PPT to rely on?  Please answer that. Tell me why they don't all currently have emergency managers? Yes the sky is falling, lookout.

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

Restorium2 depreciation schedules aren't relevant to this conversation. They have nothing to do with PPT. I love how you read some words and ignore the ones you can't address.

[+Malamute]

Well, in many ways I seen PPT tax as the sales tax businesses don't normally pay for purchases. :-)

[Restorium2]

Restorium2 I don't need to address the question of why we didn't "fix" something. You are making the assumption that your "fix" is the better option. I don't accept that premise. Like I said personal property isn't depreciated based on a depreciation schedule. that is something you made up out of thin air. The Constitution and the statute require assessment based on true cash value not some tax depreciation schedule that has no basis in fact. You told everyone that personal property is depreciated to zero cash value over time. That is 100% completely untrue and false. You are confusing the PPT with income taxes where depreciation IS relevant.

In 1999 the State of Michigan paid a outside consulting firm to provide suggestions on how to 'fix' the depreciation schedules specifically for the PPT. It was one of the half a dozen ways the state was looking into to fix the PTT at the time. That's a fact Frank. It's not something I made up out of thin air. I'm sure you wish it was right about now. Because it blew your whole argument right out of the water, quite frankly. lol Edited August 9, 2014 by Restorium2

[Restorium2]

Restorium2 depreciation schedules aren't relevant to this conversation. They have nothing to do with PPT. I love how you read some words and ignore the ones you can't address.

BS The state of MICHIGAN paid an outside consulting firm to look into it as to one OF THE BEST ways to fix the PTT tax, bring it up to date. It's a fact you cannot change.

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

Businesses pay sales tax. But that isn't relevant. What is relevant is a government tax on a rickety chair. If you're a business you don't want to have an extra chair or anything in the office because the government will tax it.

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

I don't care if the state paid a consulting firm to make an emergency evac plan in case of zombie attack. That doesn't make zombie attacks real. The PPT is based on TRUE CASH VALUE not a random depreciation schedule. Read the Michigan Constitution and the Tax statute. It clear and unambiguously states that the PPT must be based on true cash value. Keep banging the same old worn out drum Restorium2 but it won't depreciate to zero unless it is really worth zero.

Edited August 9, 2014 by FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana

[+Malamute]

In what way do businesses pay sales tax on Equipment?  :-)

 

 I already know the answer, but for the rest of the people... Frank?

[Restorium2]

I don't care if the state paid a consulting firm to make an emergency evac plan in case of zombie attack. That doesn't make zombie attacks real. The PPT is based on TRUE CASH VALUE no a random depreciation schedule. Read the Michigan Constitution and the Tax statue. It clear and unambiguously states that the PPT must be based on true cash value. Keep banging the same old worn out drum Restorium2 but it won't depreciate to zero unless it is really worth zero.

Amendments can be made to the State Constitution. It happens. The DNR did it for example. We should do it like the DNR did so the money collected for the MMA stays in the program. I know exactly how it is done. You pretend it just can't be done. Pretending isn't real Frank. Pretending that Proposal 1 was the only way isn't real. There were several ways to move forward as the watchdog group pointed out.

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

Oh Restorium2 so your backup plan is "you're right about the way PPT is taxed but I'm not going to admit it I would rather revert to a different argument which is that the Constitution could be amended to make my argument right." You at least provide me with great laughs if not an accurate description of the way things are done. Is this your veiled admission that you are dead wrong?

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

Malamute I know the answer too but you are again clouding the issue. Don't become restorium2's twin brother. "I now realize there is no problem with the PPT. But in the 99.99% chance I am wrong I will complain about other taxes or lack thereof so it at least looks like my complaining has value."

[Restorium2]

Oh Restorium2 so your backup plan is "you're right about the way PPT is taxed but I'm not going to admit it I would rather revert to a different argument which is that the Constitution could be amended to make my argument right." You at least provide me with great laughs if not an accurate description of the way things are done. Is this your veiled admission that you are dead wrong?

The STATE OF MICHIGAN paid a consulting firm to look into it. Laugh away Frank. They were trying to fix the PPT. That's a fact. You just muddied up the water with the constitution white flag, it can't be done, which is ridiculous.

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

Last I knew we aren't discussing whether the PPT could be fixed. We were discussing why it is a bad tax. There are a hundreds of ways it could be tweaked but that isn't the issue. You lost the argument and are now shifting from why you were right to how the state could've made you right. Keep banging that drum and soon it WILL have a true cash value of zero.