Which Way To Vote On Proposal 1 ?

[cristinew]

FRANK  YOU DID NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION?? Quote .. and builds in a new even handed tax...........who pays for this  NEW EVEN HANDED TAX?? 

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

The Business Use Tax. That is what covers the shortfall. If you did your research on prop 1 instead of shooting from the hip then you would know that.

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

You know only 13% of registered voters voted in yesterday's primary? What a lackluster showing.

[Restorium2]

The Business Use Tax. That is what covers the shortfall. If you did your research on prop 1 instead of shooting from the hip then you would know that.

That's just a talking point. A talking point that doesn't make sense has nothing to do with research. That is a one time tax. That's not going to offset the loss of the PPT.

[Restorium2]

You know only 13% of registered voters voted in yesterday's primary? What a lackluster showing.

The vultures knew that was going to happen when they popped up with a Proposal 1.

[Restorium2]

FRANK  YOU DID NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION?? Quote .. and builds in a new even handed tax...........who pays for this  NEW EVEN HANDED TAX?? 

The New Even Handed Tax means they are going to need to raise the sales tax for sure now. It's the one trick pony. Cut taxes until we are broke then raise them EVEN HANDEDLY. Which doesn't really MEAN even handedly. It just means Shift The Burden from business and the rich.

[Wild Bill]

And wild bill you can't write off PPT paid by your corporation through your personal income tax. Where on earth are you coming up with that?

 

Sorry, I misspoke. I should have said credit.

 

A taxpayer may claim a credit against the MBT equal to 35% of the eligible industrial personal property taxes paid.

 

http://www.michigan.gov/taxes/0,1607,7-238-46621_47361-173094--,00.html

[Restorium2]

Right. There are already so many ways around businesses getting taxed that it's hard to put your finger on exactly which tax they are avoiding. Frank is good at showing you that the loopholes you know about are separate from the ones they use for the PPT. Probably why they got rid of the PPT, too hard to cheat around it.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Restorium2

[Wild Bill]

The Business Use Tax. That is what covers the shortfall. If you did your research on prop 1 instead of shooting from the hip then you would know that.

 

What will make up for the shortfall on the things that the Business Use Tax now covers?

 

Will people suddenly start staying in motels more and buy more things from out of state to pay for the added burden?

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

A tax credit isn't a loophole. It is built into the tax scheme so that if you end up paying a certain amount of income tax then you get relief from some of it based on the fact that you paid a certain amount in PPT. It is designed to even out the amount of tax paid so that corporations that don't pay much in taxes due to things like write offs on losses don't get the double benefit of not paying the PPT. For corporations that pay a ton in income tax (not always really income tax but these purposes we will call it that) they get some relief by getting credit towards some of that tax paid with what amounts to a reduction in PPT.  No PPT in the tax scheme now means no credit for paying PPT which means more goes to the state in what amounts to income tax.  Eliminating the PPT means an automatic hike (not really a hike but no more tax credit) on other taxes paid by a corporation.  I could explain the entire tax structure and scheme but you may as well get the volumes of tax code and read them yourself.  What people don't understand is that many of these taxes end up being alternatives.  Pay x% towards PPT or pay your full income tax.  These are offsets in the system that lead to higher taxes in other areas when one tax is eliminated.  You need to understand the whole tax scheme to understand why elimination of the PPT doesn't make that much difference. You can't just examine what is lost by removal of PPT but also what is gained by its removal. Every one of these taxes has collateral implications. That is why there was no uproar by public interest groups over this PPT removal.

 

People here who don't understand the tax scheme are latching onto one little fact and then thinking they know it all.

 

And wild bill tax credits for business PPT cannot be taken against personal income tax. That isn't how corporations work. They are independent of your personal taxes even if you are the majority shareholder in the corporation. They are taxed separately and under different rules that your personal income tax.  If you realized income from the corporation through salary, profit, etc., then that income is taxed under your personal income tax scheme and business write-offs and credits have nothing to do with it.

[+Malamute]

Let's do it this way since this is said and done. 3 years and 1 month from now, let's actually see if the Business Use Tax makes up for those shortfalls or if millages increase in communities to make up for shortfalls.

 

 Proof is in the pudding.

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

I agree. But I also think that the PPT was a bad tax to begin with and I don't see how repealing a bad tax is corporate welfare.  The legislators could pass a tax that says corporations are taxed at 99.9% of their realized profit.  If that was later repealed would that too be corporate welfare just because that money can no longer be used to school Johnny?  The ends don't justify the means.

 

If the sales tax is dropped back to 4% would that be welfare to every citizen who makes a purchase?

 

Saying that we will no longer take as much of YOUR money isn't welfare.

[Hayduke]

"The Business Use" Tax covers the lost revenue...

 

What is that, Frank?

 

Who pays it?

 

Who are the customers of the party who pays it?

 

Less cheerleading and intelligence based insults, and a whole lot more straight answers would be appreciated.  To me, this is a shift from very big big business who admittedly were stung by the property tax... the question is who did they transfer the tax burden to?

[Hayduke]

going to a 4% sales tax would not be welfare, it would be a tax reduction.

 

Semantics is a pretty tough dark alley when it gets turned on you....

Edited August 6, 2014 by Hayduke

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

My point exactly. How is the repeal of the PPT a welfare handout for business?  Are you following the thread?

[Restorium2]

A tax credit isn't a loophole. It is built into the tax scheme so that if you end up paying a certain amount of income tax then you get relief from some of it based on the fact that you paid a certain amount in PPT. It is designed to even out the amount of tax paid so that corporations that don't pay much in taxes due to things like write offs on losses don't get the double benefit of not paying the PPT. For corporations that pay a ton in income tax (not always really income tax but these purposes we will call it that) they get some relief by getting credit towards some of that tax paid with what amounts to a reduction in PPT.  No PPT in the tax scheme now means no credit for paying PPT which means more goes to the state in what amounts to income tax.  Eliminating the PPT means an automatic hike (not really a hike but no more tax credit) on other taxes paid by a corporation.  I could explain the entire tax structure and scheme but you may as well get the volumes of tax code and read them yourself.  What people don't understand is that many of these taxes end up being alternatives.  Pay x% towards PPT or pay your full income tax.  These are offsets in the system that lead to higher taxes in other areas when one tax is eliminated.  You need to understand the whole tax scheme to understand why elimination of the PPT doesn't make that much difference. You can't just examine what is lost by removal of PPT but also what is gained by its removal. Every one of these taxes has collateral implications. That is why there was no uproar by public interest groups over this PPT removal.

 

People here who don't understand the tax scheme are latching onto one little fact and then thinking they know it all.

 

And wild bill tax credits for business PPT cannot be taken against personal income tax. That isn't how corporations work. They are independent of your personal taxes even if you are the majority shareholder in the corporation. They are taxed separately and under different rules that your personal income tax.  If you realized income from the corporation through salary, profit, etc., then that income is taxed under your personal income tax scheme and business write-offs and credits have nothing to do with it.

Many people have wasted a whole lot of time and money on this proposal if it doesn't change anything. Why do you even care then? Give us an example of how it helped you.

[Restorium2]

My point exactly. How is the repeal of the PPT a welfare handout for business?  Are you following the thread?

Because it makes it so they don't have to pay taxes on their machinery. It's a freakin' tax cut for them.

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

Who are the customers of whoever pays the business use tax?  Well they are the same customers of whoever pays the PPT. Doesn't get easier than that.

 

Restorium2 are you following the thread? It does change things and we've been over that. It distributes tax money more even handedly among municipalities. You don't end up with some municipalities using 70% of the PPT to cover their essential services (Carson City) and others with NONE. It makes municipal budgets more predictable so they know what they are getting from the state and are able to plan their budgets unlike the PPT where they didn't know with any reasonable time up front. Why do you think cops, EMTs and firefighters were for this? Because their jobs depended on  budget planning which was hard to do with the PPT. We've been over all of this, read the thread. It also repeals a ridiculous was to tax businesses and the principle alone makes me care.

 

How will it help me? In the long run it brings in more industry instead of repelling industry. It also helps keep current industry in the state. Did you read the thread? The film industry is a perfect example of how this type of thing works. I've been over it several times yet you belly up to the computer and just madly type instead of absorbing all of this stuff that was previously addressed.

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

There is no reason for the state to tax a lathe every single year. There SHOULD be a tax cut for that.  However, as I already stated and you are proudly ignoring, much of the tax credits granted for the PPT end up coming back to the state anyway because along with the PPT go the tax credits corporations got for it. Read and absorb. Read and absorb.

Edited August 6, 2014 by FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana

[Restorium2]

Who are the customers of whoever pays the business use tax?  Well they are the same customers of whoever pays the PPT. Doesn't get easier than that.

 

Restorium2 are you following the thread? It does change things and we've been over that. It distributes tax money more even handedly among municipalities. You don't end up with some municipalities using 70% of the PPT to cover their essential services (Carson City) and others with NONE. It makes municipal budgets more predictable so they know what they are getting from the state and are able to plan their budgets unlike the PPT where they didn't know with any reasonable time up front. Why do you think cops, EMTs and firefighters were for this? Because their jobs depended on  budget planning which was hard to do with the PPT. We've been over all of this, read the thread. It also repeals a ridiculous was to tax businesses and the principle alone makes me care.

 

How will it help me? In the long run it brings in more industry instead of repelling industry. It also helps keep current industry in the state. Did you read the thread? The film industry is a perfect example of how this type of thing works. I've been over it several times yet you belly up to the computer and just madly type instead of absorbing all of this stuff that was previously addressed.

I have read every single word in this thread.

 

Could you explain the 'Carson City' problem in greater detail? It's the first thing of substance you have written so far. Give us some 'realness' Frank. How is the situation involving Carson City unfair and was there no other way to fix it other than proposal 1? More real examples are appreciated.

[Restorium2]

There is no reason for the state to tax a lathe every single year. There SHOULD be a tax cut for that.  However, as I already stated and you are proudly ignoring, much of the tax credits granted for the PPT end up coming back to the state anyway because along with the PPT go the tax credits corporations got for it. Read and absorb. Read and absorb.

I know of some lathes that need to get taxed every year.

[Norby]

What a clever response norby.  $5 of the $6 is what stayed in the state. That isn't profit off of filmmaking that is new economic activity that was brought in.  Jobs, renting equipment, renting space, etc, etc, etc. Nice try at clouding the issue once again though.

I won't believe it till I see that they didn't stay at chain hotels, eat from chain restaurants and rent from corporate chains where most of the money goes out of state.

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

The economic activity is not primarily from hotel stays Norby. Think real hard and I bet you come up with places where the real money is spent when one makes a movie. I posted example somewhere up in the thread and I am betting you can find them.

 

Restorium2 if you read every word in the thread then you would notice I brought up Carson City well before my last post. I came across it when I did my research when trying to decide on how to vote for prop 1. That's right, someone did research, didn't just listen to everyone in the room banging their beer steins on the table asking for another round and slapping one another on the back with self-congratulatory remarks about how their one-liners about corporate welfare were so right. I dug for the facts while everyone else sat around and whined about how picked on they are.

 

I will post more about the Carson City issue later, I'm over and out to catch my late news.

[Restorium2]

The economic activity is not primarily from hotel stays Norby. Think real hard and I bet you come up with places where the real money is spent when one makes a movie. I posted example somewhere up in the thread and I am betting you can find them.

 

Restorium2 if you read every word in the thread then you would notice I brought up Carson City well before my last post. I came across it when I did my research when trying to decide on how to vote for prop 1. That's right, someone did research, didn't just listen to everyone in the room banging their beer steins on the table asking for another round and slapping one another on the back with self-congratulatory remarks about how their one-liners about corporate welfare were so right. I dug for the facts while everyone else sat around and whined about how picked on they are.

 

I will post more about the Carson City issue later, I'm over and out to catch my late news.

BS. It IS a tax break where businesses don't have to pay tax on their machinery anymore. Period. You just take a big steaming dump on the plain and simple truth and call it 'research'. I just wanted to know how it benefits YOU personally, then we can understand why you tried so hard to justify corporate welfare, so you can afford to live in Florida a good portion of the year. Just fess up as to why switching the tax burden from businesses floats your boat. The truth will set you free. Just like when I said I liked ObamaCare I told everyone why. I said how it helped me. Now it is your turn Frank. A little realness.

[Hayduke]

Is that all you got, Frank?

 

"Read the thread"

 

If it is not switching who will pay the tax, why even bother to do it?

 

Read my lips, Frank, and try and just answer the questions with no bs that reveals your political bias.... or maybe you can not do that....

 

Is it a self control issue on your part?