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People V Vanderbutts Oral Arguments


bobandtorey

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I just watched this. It is about a patient being denied the right to raise the sec. 8 defense. It consists of a westside COA's panel, the defense attorney and Bill Schuette's assistant for the prosecution.

 

Over the years I have found myself in court numerous times regarding various business contracts. In every case I have found that the attorney that is a friend of the judge seems to win. If you watch the video, you will see Schuette's assistant come on around the 16 minute mark of the 25 min tape. After his 5 or 6 minutes one of the judges asks him how he likes his new job and they begin a short friendly exchange.

 

Anyway, just my 2 cents about how this is going to come down.

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I just watched this. It is about a patient being denied the right to raise the sec. 8 defense. It consists of a westside COA's panel, the defense attorney and Bill Schuette's assistant for the prosecution.

 

Over the years I have found myself in court numerous times regarding various business contracts. In every case I have found that the attorney that is a friend of the judge seems to win. If you watch the video, you will see Schuette's assistant come on around the 16 minute mark of the 25 min tape. After his 5 or 6 minutes one of the judges asks him how he likes his new job and they begin a short friendly exchange.

 

Anyway, just my 2 cents about how this is going to come down.

 

 

I saw the first trial tapes and Mr Vanderbutts seemed to have a reasonable defense if allowed . The court seemed very disorganized by appearing not familiar with the medical act and I felt the Judge was not wanting to impart the protections it offered or even take the time to consider them and that point of view as they scanned the act at trial for what seemed to be the first time . I believe there were statements made by the Judge that even supported my impression . In Mr Vanderbutts case forfeiture of what I consider a large amount of money took place ( $3000 ) from under his bed . I felt afraid as I also had cash on hand to purchase a vehicle that same weekend he was raided and arrested . Since he was a stage 4 cancer patient I was very surprised to hear later after conviction that his punishment included not being able to use cannabis even when not in Jail . This is a very telling sign of how little respect as medicine cannabis is receiving . When in truth many using it are already reliant on the benefits and it may be injurious and a shock to the patients system to create a situation where symptoms are no longer relieved all at once and the constitution strained by a change in habbit . We are after all sick people .

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seems the amount held is the carrot in this race. what was medically necessary to be held on hand that can be considered reasonably needed.

 

as a self growing pt, we are limited at the 2.5 oz limit, and can present section 8 to have the ability to prove medically reasonable necessity for the overage, for his medical needs. the hard issue i find myself is, can one say 15 oz of overage is medically necessary? I would say it would depend on circumstances surrounding the case.

 

now if their were no assigned pts, so no ability to hold in reserve for them, then it stand to reason, the amount was singular in nature. but if say, he grew 4 plants, and ended up with 17.5. cured and stored it in the freezer. haveing an understanding of his dosing regiment, he could say, i use 2 oz a month, it takes 4 months to grow 4 plants from seed to cut, so 2x4 is 8 oz. so i have 2 grow cycles worth of useable medicine for myself. then he would not need to grow for one cycle as he has available meds on hand for 2 grow cycles. Then he can start another set of plants 4 months later. when that set is is ready to harvest, he should be thru his reserve from the initial grow.

 

 

this is a slippery slope. sure you could argue he was going to hold the 15 oz in his freezer and use it as his medicine was used up. but then is that amount medically necessary, or just overshooting the grow size with purposeful intent, or just out of happenstance?

 

the reasonably necessary requirement in this case is going to be a tall hurdle. if he had 3 or even 6 ozs over it could perhaps be argued, but if their was no assigned patient in the mix, i think 15 is a very tall hurdle.

 

im sad to say, i would expect the CoA to uphold the lower courts ruling.

 

even if one is making Oil or butter, there is going to be a fine line between enough to do the job, and being beyond reasonably necessary.

 

i think this all goes to the effect, the law was a protection for medical use for individuals, and makes absolutely no effort to purpose the ability to allow anyone to be able to produce, procure, or generate any product in quantities sufficient to be considered beyond individual amounts, or amounts available for assigned patients.

 

one thing i have noticed is many of the laws here in Mi, and in other states that have passed, it the disticntive wording used to dis associate any probably business aspect with the law itself. Simply put, its a caviet cut out for individual citizens, and not for any type of business venture. anything that would even remotely perceived as a business venture concerning medical cannabis is going to have a HUGE target on it in cases like we have here, due to the phrasing used to avoid any business type entity to be allowed. Other than the Drs Recommendation that is.

 

hard one for sure....

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I am just speculating here since the video did not go into the specifics that bobandtory mentioned. Bob claimed that the patient was a stage 4 cancer patient. It might be reasonable to argued that he was anticipating a time in the near future when he could not grow and as such the supply was to "insure an uninterrupted supply".

 

My reason for commenting was to highlight what I have experienced with regards to judicial decisions, "the lawyer that is friends with the judge usually wins regardless of the merits of the case".

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Their terminology is a little bit off. The "People" vs Vanderbutts? The "people" would say let this poor cancer victim have his medication, that is why we voted in the act. Leave the poor man alone and go fight real crime is what the "people" would say.

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ya, if he was a stage 4 cancer patient, then whats reasonable to him, would be far different that what my needs would be for sure. If that is the case here, this is Exactly the reason 8) SHOULD be allowed in this instance.

 

I would certainly say that amount could be suited as a reasonable amount.

most dosage i have seen is 1 gram oil 3 times a day for cancer. im only basing those number off my reading and mild research. it takes approx 1 once to make 3 grams of oil, or a one days dose. 17 oz would equate to 17 days worth of medicine. in this case, i can easily see medical necessity for that amount of medicine on hand to convert to useable oil for this patient. That tells me he should deffinatly qualify for the 8) defense.

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ya, if he was a stage 4 cancer patient, then whats reasonable to him, would be far different that what my needs would be for sure. If that is the case here, this is Exactly the reason 8) SHOULD be allowed in this instance.

 

I would certainly say that amount could be suited as a reasonable amount.

most dosage i have seen is 1 gram oil 3 times a day for cancer. im only basing those number off my reading and mild research. it takes approx 1 once to make 3 grams of oil, or a one days dose. 17 oz would equate to 17 days worth of medicine. in this case, i can easily see medical necessity for that amount of medicine on hand to convert to useable oil for this patient. That tells me he should deffinatly qualify for the 8) defense.

 

 

No one has been able to use the A.D yet

i think thats why we are still in court

i think thats why this case is so Big if he gets to use it then we all will be able to

thats why he wont win even if he gos to the MSC and he has the money to do it i don't think he had any plants he was thinking he could grow one time and stop and store his meds for later lots of people do this they don't want to grow all year around

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Bob you guys had your doctor rec so this case and yours is miles apart, miles apart. I been following this case since he first showed up at one of my meetings trying to teach me about the law. Well, as ya can see those 3 judges where all over the fact he did not have a doc rec nor a card nor just waiting on the state as you guys were. You guys already had paperwork and where at all times legal in my eyes period. He'll not fair well sad to say with the judges we have in there now. He had so much meds cuz,, just maybe,,, someday,,,,, he'd be a caregiver and stated that himself. That kills his defense on needing it only for his self in my eyes and claim to the AD. From what I just watched from the clip that killed it for the judges too.

 

No Bob my friend,,, your case is miles and miles more legal then he would have ever hoped his case to to be.

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Bob you guys had your doctor rec so this case and yours is miles apart, miles apart. I been following this case since he first showed up at one of my meetings trying to teach me about the law. Well, as ya can see those 3 judges where all over the fact he did not have a doc rec nor a card nor just waiting on the state as you guys were. You guys already had paperwork and where at all times legal in my eyes period. He'll not fair well sad to say with the judges we have in there now. He had so much meds cuz,, just maybe,,, someday,,,,, he'd be a caregiver and stated that himself. That kills his defense on needing it only for his self in my eyes and claim to the AD. From what I just watched from the clip that killed it for the judges too.

 

No Bob my friend,,, your case is miles and miles more legal then he would have ever hoped his case to to be.

 

 

i did not know he did not have his Rec are you sure? i know he did not have a card

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i did not know he did not have his Rec are you sure? i know he did not have a card

From the clip here is where I got that from and seems not. Even if he did he could not have 17 oz's of meds and say he was able to have that incase he became a caregiver some day and claim under the AD part of un interruted supply for his self, then say he was saving it for INCASE he became a giver. I just can't see that fly'n..

 

No Bob as ya know those are not the issues in your case. There is no issues with your case but them throwing a dam hissy fit. They should be jailed in my eyes

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i don't think he had any plants he was thinking he could grow one time and stop and store his meds for later lots of people do this they don't want to grow all year around

 

This is a huge problem for most people whom go into the hospital for tests during the year , or other things that take them away from home for a few days routinely . Medical use of cannabis for most patients also requires a constant therapeutic dose be maintained . It is not hard to understand why Section 8 is one of the most important parts of a workable set of rules necessary to protect patients not something additional . It is part of a act whose pieces are all idesigned to create a" parachute" in legal defense of patients whom may benefit from Cannabis .If one area fails to provide it another comes in and saves the patient from falling to harm . Thank you for helping us understand that . I hope someone helps the Court soon too . I am learning not to take anything for granted in communication . Often it is not anymore or less then people not understanding each other that creates problems . Allot of people have doseage requirements that would be harmful to others medical routines too .

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From the clip here is where I got that from and seems not. Even if he did he could not have 17 oz's of meds and say he was able to have that incase he became a caregiver some day and claim under the AD part of un interruted supply for his self, then say he was saving it for INCASE he became a giver. I just can't see that fly'n..

 

No Bob as ya know those are not the issues in your case. There is no issues with your case but them throwing a dam hissy fit. They should be jailed in my eyes

 

to have that encase he became a caregiver some day OK i got that part and i agree and also the 17oz is not going to fly ether i use to tell people that having to much Meds on hand was better then to many plants if they get it to a jury it might help but thats not going to happen and we know it

 

 

and no it has notting to do with are case but every thing to do with the A.D if you cant use it why is it their some will say it was their for after the Law had passed and the State had 120 days to get the cards out

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Taking on a stage 4 cancer patient and trying to make his life more of a living hell than it is already. I hope there is a special place in Hell reserved for people like these "defenders of the law". If life was fair and equitable, all the individuals who have persecuted this man would develop his disease, be denied access to comfort, and suffer as he has. I pray that they someday do experience suffering and are able to reflect on what they have done.

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I am learning not to take anything for granted in communication .

 

yes cropped, this is a key thing. People hear, but they refuse to listen

they look, but refuse to see.

they eat, but refuse to taste,

and they are conscious but forget to think.

 

 

add to this, the fact that reading black and white text as we do, adds to the dis enchantment of communication with another human. one thing i find SO astonishing is here we are, can spread our thoughts around the world in seconds, but we are So disassociated with being connected, we have replaced our Need for Human connections, with our need for instant gratification of our own desires and thoughts. all the time rejecting the very thing that keeps us whole. that human contact we just cant get via technology. by becomming electronically connected, we have become humanly disconnected.

kind of a scary scenario if you ask me.

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Their terminology is a little bit off. The "People" vs Vanderbutts? The "people" would say let this poor cancer victim have his medication, that is why we voted in the act. Leave the poor man alone and go fight real crime is what the "people" would say.

You're spot on brother! I agree with you 100%, leave him alone, 17 ounces is enough to make approximately 60 grams of the Simpson oil, enough to cure most cancers. I would like to believe he could righteously use the AD to try to save his life.

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