Michael Komorn’S Response To False Allegations And The Future Of The Mmma

[+Malamute]

A follow up can be once a year...

 

A simple phone call at some point after the initial in person appointment is more than sufficient.

[restlesslegs]

At my pain clinic I get Morphine for pain control and I have to be seen every 28 days to comply with DEA regulations according to the doctor. I have to pick up my scripts in person and sign for the script before they give it to me.

 

Yep I used to have to do that when I was on Oxy. I had to sign a contract when I first started it too.

[Petyr]

the new bill says to recert every two years with a follow up

 

Where does it say that? 4834 has the 2 year thing, but it doesn't have anything in there about certification process or follow up visits. 4851 is where I think it would be, and that only has the part about "reasonable expectation" which is pretty vague.

 

Where do the bills have anything about a follow up visit? Or the 3 followup visits people are asking about?

[Murph]

I went to school 8 years too, I do not make $150 a minute.

 

Overhead is a cost of doing business, so drop it, it does not matter to the patient -- they want low cost certification, read the records, evaluate and cert...real easy. Costs very little.

 

Even if it's $100 that is a tidy profit. And your lacking real experience is glaring -- this is really not a medical issue it is more akin to processing insurance paperwork. The Docs says it MIGHTT help (it might not too) but as I said,

your entire premise is off (watch out your lack of brains is showing).

 

The Docs are merely signing a piece of paper and your comparing it to strep throat or other medical procedures which requires tests, shots, close follow up -

 

We all know a Doc can say "MJ might help you" and leave it at that with little more -- all this throwing more at them (and is by implication) objective is one -- stop MMJ. Thats it. end of discussion.

 

When you know that is the context, then you start opposing it all -- this is all propaganda of the drug war. The debate is over. It fail and IS a failure.

This putting more and more on the Cert. Doctor's back is merely the attempt to make it more difficult, more expensive -- more anything -- to get MMJ Registry Card.

 

So, Everything is premised on wiping out the MMM Act's protection., and I for one am not playing that game. I reject it all as it is an affront on the Voter's Orders - our "Elected Officials" do not have the luxury of questioning the Voters, they must

follow the Orders like a Private given Orders by a General.

 

As for your ad hominem attacks -- they roll right off me with not even a scratch. You cannot damage Marines with words *(yep lots of us around, we bleed red, white, and blue). Your just making a fool of yourself trying to compare a written certification that MJ "might" help to actual medical procedures and medical treatment (see how that works, you fall for their slight of hand and now who looks stupid). A peice of paper is not a medical procedure. Saying it "might" help Can be answered in the affirmative for everyone -- it might not but that does not change the standard which the Certification requires and this is where you miss the ball --- its propaganda. It has nothing to do with anything but ending this law.

 

 

I am not getting into the entire healthcare system debate, as it is a mess.

 

The MMJ certs are not intended to be a a money making machine. It should be a nominal amount included in every Docs cost of doing business -- would you balk at your Doc saying S/He wanted $150 to submit your insurance papers?

 

Yep. Same thing.

 

And for that matter, this issue of why chronic pain is such a problem in America is that the Gov. DRUG WARRIORS have made it so difficult to practice in this area that patients swarm any doc who does practice pain management -- inevitably a bad apple who does not follow instructions makes into a Docs practice -- and We have turned regulation over the Law Enforcement -- so when a Patient sells, gives away or whatever their meds -- LEO then hold the DOC responsible. It is insane. Go after the person who did wrong, not the innocent .

 

I am sorry, but what a person does once they walk out of a Doctor's office is not under the Docs control any longer. So, end if that issue as it is the end of the issue of Doctor's certifications costing alot and the Legislature trying to stop it by adding silly

requirements -- but worst of all is your falling for it --- this is a piece of paper that says the Doc certified MMJ "MIGHT" help the patient. Most any Doc could say that about anyone as might is a very lax word ( DEFINITION:

used to express possibility:

It may rain.

2.(used to express opportunity or permission): You may enter. 3. (used to express contingency, especially in clauses indicating condition, concession, purpose, result, etc.): I may be wrong but I think you would be wise to go. Times may change but human

nature stays the same. 4. (used to express wish or prayer): May you live to an old age. 5. Archaic . (used to express ability or power.)

We will ALL need to do is not play these games with the Legislature -- the Law is fine as it is -- enforece it as written. this is not the place for debate of the healthcare system or Docs financial positions, they live comfortable lives and this Form should be $10.

Matter a Fact, it should be included with primary care

 

as it's a piece of paper that certifies MMJ "MIGHT" help and it does not cost $150 to do or sign it, period. Your premise is off

 

YOU do not seem to understand what they are attempting to do (just like the bona fide Dr/Pt relationship) -- it is an attempt to weaken the law, not to protect Us or anyone.

 

You think they care about you or me -- no they do not. They are not trying to protect us from Doctors they are trying to weaken the law and in that context it all must be rejected as political.

 

To these Legislators We are scum of the earth - pot heads, stoners --- AND, for the last time this is not about them (Legislators) "helping" Us or anyone -- it is about their attempt to make it more difficult for a person to get a MMJ Registry card

and to arrest them if they do get one or convict them if they are in court .

 

It appears you simply do not get that (so discussing it further with you is a lost cause) You do not get the very basis for the Bills to begin with.....

 

IAre you Schutte? It Seems like it and you just registerd but seem to know more than most who just register -- Before long I bet you will be saying MJ is bad for you (and no one should be allowed to use it......).

 

 

M0

 

 

Well it's clear you have no clue about the real world. It isn't about making $150/minute it is about the diagnosis of the problem and the treatment. What do you know about medicine? Seems pretty clear it isn't much.

 

If you're a doctor in private practice what is the overhead? Well, let's see. I'm not a doc but I have a pretty good idea of a lot of the overhead costs. Docs go to school for at least 8 years. Then they do a residency. It takes most docs at least 11 years of post high school work to get to a point where they can own a practice. Then most have huge student debt to pay. Huge liability insurance to pay. Nurses, med techs, clerical workers, accountants, etc., to pay. Brick and mortar building along with taxes, utilities, maintenance., etc.

 

The cost of medical care is a function of all of that plus, I'm sure, plenty of stuff of which I am not aware. If docs made $30/hour like a factory worker who is screwing a doohickey to a thingamabob on the line at GM then they WOULDN'T likely go to med chool. Which would mean even FEWER docs.

 

If you know basic economics 101 then you know about scarcity of resources and supply/demand. Docs are scarce. Why? Because not everyone wants to go through all that schooling and pay for it AND, even if they were willing, not everyone is smart enough to do that. Therefore, docs are handsomely paid. If you don't like that then maybe you should start a movement to convert us to communism and pay docs $25/hour from the minute they graduate high school until they retire. Pay them to go to school and then pay them to practice. Also, we could eliminate any right to sue for malpractice. That will eliminate the need for insurance. Maybe we could also make one giant office every 100 miles and make docs work in 1 of 5 offices in the state to share overhead. Sound like a good system? I didn't think so.

 

Docs don't charge patients by the hour. They charge by the visit or service. Sometimes your visit may take 20 minutes with the doc sometimes it may take 1 minute. That's how it goes. Make no mistake, the doc isn't making 100% profit off what you pay them for a visit. Give me a break.

[CaveatLector]

Posted Today, 10:50 AM

I just wanted to let you folks know that I have filed a grievance against Michael Komorn in an attempt to force him to reveal his version of the books and to hold him accountable for numerous other ethical violations. I intend to seek his disbarment as well as use any and all disclosures to recover funds stolen from the MMMA. Thanks, Bb

 

But Blueberry you always said the MMMA did not have any money? Its posted on this site all over. So i do not think that will hold up in any court,

 

 

Did your disbarment of Bill Schuette work out well?

 

I posted this from his site i do not know if its ok or not. remove it if you wish or tell Mike K what he it up to

The Attorney Grievance Commission cannot force Komorn to turn over books. cain is a numbnut. The AGC won't likely do a darn thing with that unless there is a criminal conviction. They aren't in the business of conducting trials, they act AFTER someone is proven guilty.

 

As for the BS grievance, I read that. Well, some of it... It was so incoherent and nonsensical that I will bet the reviewers at the AGC loved it because it was something to talk and laugh about. My 4th grade niece could've compiled something better than that. It used about 12 different font sizes, choppy sentences, and poor paragraph and grammar structure. It was a giant mess. Submitting that as a representative of the MMMA basically showed Schuette our hand and our hand said we are incompetent. cain's "evidence" consisted of his opinions and some newspaper articles. Mark my words, nothing will come of that.

 

Schuette is a bumbling fool for writing the opinion regarding the enclosed, locked facility. He showed his hand as doing nothing but making a purely political decision and cow towing to his party. But he isn't getting disbarred.

[Timmahh]

as I did say this was 30 yrs ago. and i am not saying no dr visits at all. Take my ex. she see s a dr monthly, but her prescriptions are never an issue. all that is ever said, is is it working every once a a while.

 

condition has much to do with it of course. My brother shattered his ankle bad enough they considered amputation, but they decided to mesh it, and it took, though he was messed up. there was never a question about his prescription other than was it still working, and did they need to try something different or stronger, but he was never required to have the appointment to affirm the need for the prescription, only how the current maintenance was working.

[Timmahh]

A follow up can be once a year...

 

A simple phone call at some point after the initial in person appointment is more than sufficient.

 

 

that is what im saying Mal. In most cases, with life long prognosis, a call is usually all that is needed. Yes that is contingent on Some sort of previous history with the Dr. but still....

[CaveatLector]

as I did say this was 30 yrs ago. and i am not saying no dr visits at all. Take my ex. she see s a dr monthly, but her prescriptions are never an issue. all that is ever said, is is it working every once a a while.

 

condition has much to do with it of course. My brother shattered his ankle bad enough they considered amputation, but they decided to mesh it, and it took, though he was messed up. there was never a question about his prescription other than was it still working, and did they need to try something different or stronger, but he was never required to have the appointment to affirm the need for the prescription, only how the current maintenance was working.

Again, I am not a medical professional but I'm pretty sure the standard of care for physicians requires follow ups. With that being said it only affirms why this should be a medical matter and left to physicians. The legislature shouldn't be imposing their arbitrary standard of care. LEAVE IT UP TO THE DOCTORS to make discretionary decisions where appropriate and to follow the standard of care as set forth by THEIR governing bodies!!!

[solabeirtan]

It isn't about making $150/minute it is about the diagnosis of the problem and the treatment. What do you know about medicine? Seems pretty clear it isn't much.

 

$150 doctors fee

60 min

 

1 patient / minute

$9,000 $/hour

 

8 hours 480 patients / hour

$72,000 day

 

4 days 1,920 patients / wk

$288,000 week 32 hours / wk

 

45 weeks 86,400 patients / yr

$12,960,000 year

 

w/ 2 docs

$25,920,000 gross 2013 projected 172,800 w/ 2 docs

 

Little more than you do about economics

[solabeirtan]

Remeber when Shiuite made his first move to change the program. Moving the card delivery to LARA. What was that all about? Wasn't it supposed to get our cards out in a timely manner. No it was another failed attempt to dismantle this law as passed by the good citizens of this state. Nothing more. Denial of service! Criminal negligence! Gross Incompetence! Unprofessional! ...

[Petyr]

It isn't about making $150/minute it is about the diagnosis of the problem and the treatment. What do you know about medicine? Seems pretty clear it isn't much.

 

$150 doctors fee

60 min

 

1 patient / minute

$9,000 $/hour

 

8 hours 480 patients / hour

$72,000 day

 

4 days 1,920 patients / wk

$288,000 week 32 hours / wk

 

45 weeks 86,400 patients / yr

$12,960,000 year

 

w/ 2 docs

$25,920,000 gross 2013 projected 172,800 w/ 2 docs

 

Little more than you do about economics

Well seeing as they would have to be constantly flying around by helicopter all over the state to serve that many people that quickly, I think the income is very reasonable! Which 2 doctors get to write certs for every single patient in the state anyways?

 

They would need to spend a lot on advertising to attract every single patient also. What if another 2 doctors decide to undercut and only make 15 million a year? I realize the helicopter will be a large initial investment, but the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow makes it worth it right?

[CaveatLector]

It isn't about making $150/minute it is about the diagnosis of the problem and the treatment. What do you know about medicine? Seems pretty clear it isn't much.

 

$150 doctors fee

60 min

 

1 patient / minute

$9,000 $/hour

 

8 hours 480 patients / hour

$72,000 day

 

4 days 1,920 patients / wk

$288,000 week 32 hours / wk

 

45 weeks 86,400 patients / yr

$12,960,000 year

 

w/ 2 docs

$25,920,000 gross 2013 projected 172,800 w/ 2 docs

 

Little more than you do about economics

That would be REALLY good if patients were stacked up like cordwood in exam rooms waiting for a doc to walk in and then walk out. You don't make sense. Obviously you fail to see the economics of it. If I only require 1 minute to make a diagnosis and recommend treatment then good. But did the doc know that when the clerical staff scheduled the appointment? NO! Don't be a fool. Some patients will require more in-depth analysis than others. When the staff makes an appt they have to block off x amount of time for that appt. That means that time is sacrificed whether it took 1 minute or 15 minutes. So If I have a day full of simple 1 minute diagnoses then I guess I'm sh1t out of luck and have to go into my pocket to pay overhead if I charge $5/minute huh?

 

And of course I better learn to chart as I run between exam rooms to stay on track for 1 min/pt under your plan. In fact I better learn to teleport because if it takes me 30 seconds to transport then there's $75 down the drain, right?

 

Please try to make sense before you post. What you are suggesting is that a dr devise some sort of sliding fee based on minutes seen by the dr. So if the doc schedules 6 appt an hour and each one only took 1 min then he should maybe just charge them $5 huh? So he made $30 for the hour and that has to cover staff and all of the other overhead. Sounds like a good plan chief. Maybe he can get his nurses and clerical staff and accountant, et al to work for reduced wages in the event he has a fast diagnosis day!!!! Yeah! Good plan! You clearly DON'T understand economics from a micro view or a macro view.

 

The charge is likely per patient per visit and maybe subject to adjustments upward if more service is required. That's fair. If you don't like what your doc charges then get a new one. Just like patients and caregivers. Don't like what your caregiver charges then seek out a new one. Maybe you can get one to give you some nice loosey goosey crap for 5 bucks.

 

Bitching about it is just dumb because we are in a free market and the market will flex when necessary.

[CaveatLector]

Well seeing as they would have to be constantly flying around by helicopter all over the state to serve that many people that quickly, I think the income is very reasonable! Which 2 doctors get to write certs for every single patient in the state anyways?

 

They would need to spend a lot on advertising to attract every single patient also. What if another 2 doctors decide to undercut and only make 15 million a year? I realize the helicopter will be a large initial investment, but the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow makes it worth it right?

[CaveatLector]

Remeber when Shiuite made his first move to change the program. Moving the card delivery to LARA. What was that all about? Wasn't it supposed to get our cards out in a timely manner. No it was another failed attempt to dismantle this law as passed by the good citizens of this state. Nothing more. Denial of service! Criminal negligence! Gross Incompetence! Unprofessional! ...

Shuette didn't move it to LARA. He doesn't have the power to combine executive depts.

 

It was moved because Gov Snyder wanted to combine depts. as a cost-saving measure. It had noting to do with the MM program specifically. Essentially it's the same people doing the same work under a different name.

 

 

Seriously dude???

[+Malamute]

that is what im saying Mal. In most cases, with life long prognosis, a call is usually all that is needed. Yes that is contingent on Some sort of previous history with the Dr. but still....

 

 

Yeap.

 

I think what people have referred to is what it takes for a physician to establish a CHRONIC disease history. It is easy to prove you have epilepsy or Chrohns with medical records; but i think the 3 visit issue has to do with people establish chronic pain or chronic nausea. In medical terms, that generally means a condition that has lasted at least 3 months and is likely to continue. Without ANY medical records(only without any) a physician needs to establish your 'chronic" condition. I believe there is a crossover misunderstanding is happening.

 

Dr. Bob, as i have understood him, will help patients establish a "chronic" history of medical records by allowing a patient to do so with himself. DR. Bob please correct me if i am wrong here. This is done by doing a couple followups with the patient to document such condition. The vast vast vast majority of people have medical records pertaining to their qualifying conditions. As i have understood, Dr. Bob T has tried to establish a way for those very poor people who are very sick who have not been able to afford a doctor in years and years to establish a medical history.

 

He can expound if need be. This will establish a rock solid case that can survive any court or board of medicine challenge.

 

I believe that to be the intent. I believe he wasn't charging "extra" and if it is as i believe, this a fantastic help to the communities needs.

 

 

And yes, the "follow up" language is very loose, on purpose, and if registrations are only required every 2 years, that means a followup every 2 years likely. A simple phone call to checkup ont he patient would establish follow-up to any degree i can think of.

[Medcnman]

Hey guys. This went from Michaels defense letter to "bona fide" doctor patient relationship. Lets wrap this up so I can lock this thread. You are more than welcome to start a new thread about your current topic. Thanks, Medcnman.