Rental Inspections

[Habenero]

Just turning off the main sometimes is not good enough. For some reason my breaker box was approved even though when you turn off the main there is still power in the box to certain breakers! I don't know if it is something new, but it was approved (I bought the house with it that way).

I've never heard of that one. If the main power breaker is off then every breaker should be dead. The breakers all connect to a shared bus bars which means if one is drawing power then they all should be if connected to the same bus bar. Panels are different and some may have 2 or 3 separate neutral bus bars. Usually there 2 hot bus bars. Are the breakers that are live after you turn off the main connected to the same hot bus bar?. If so look for some jerry-rigged jumper from the main hot wires coming in to the bus bar that bypasses the main breaker. I have no idea why someone would do that and I don't think they would but I also have no idea why you would get power to some circuits but not others when the power is off. If you are getting power to a circuit when the main is off it's only logical that all circuits on that same bus will also have power.

 

Really you should turn off the main and use a volt meter to test the lines that come out of the main. If they still have power then get a new main breaker. If they don't have power then test each hot bus bar for power. If a circuit is still getting power after throwing the main then the hot bus bar will be supplying every circuit on that bar. This is an ultra dangerous situation.

 

 

I can't afford an electrician! Do it yourself or find a friend.... There are a lot of skilled carpenters up north that are willing to do small jobs cheap.

That's true but you're better off learning and doing it yourself than having someone unlicensed do it. A lot of bad wiring is a result of DIY people and unqualified people. Reversing polarity is a common problem among people who don't understand how to do it right. It will seem right to a homeowner because the lights will come on but it's not. Anyway I wouldn't have a random carpenter work on electrical. Saving a few bucks can also mean getting yourself killed.

 

I'm still concerned about why you have power leakage or whatever though growgoddess. Throw the main and test each hot bus bar for power and let us know what you come up with. This puzzles me.

[GrowGoddess]

As for the breaker box still having live breakers after the main is shut down, well, it is up to code and has been fully approved.

 

I have never seen it before and I don't like it. The reason why I know it is supposed to be like this is because it says so in the main panel. It has 4 separate mains that individually effect each side. I guess in a sens there is no actual Main. Newest breaker box I have messed with. Again, I am not a fan of it. It is 125 amp copper or 120 aluminum square D box.

 

It was installed, inspected, and approved just before I bought the house.

 

As for professionals: Well, I have seen so much bad work done by so called professionals. There have been plenty of houses that I have gone into that licensed electricians did the work, I take my handy little tester and the positive and neutral wires have been reversed. Licensed doesn't mean all that much to me. It all boils down to the ethics of the worker. I can't count how many times I have removed outlets and the wires weren't even bent in the right direction around the screw. Half the time they don't even bend the wire, just straight bare wire next to the screw. I call that lazy and dangerous.

 

 

Hey HJ: have you heard of a breaker box like mine with 4 separate mains? It has 4 separate 220 mains on the top. Some of them cross over to the other side. If I want the power totally killed I have to turn off all 4. It shows that on the panel door right on the Square D label.

 

Edit: A lot of times work by a professional is the lousiest that has been approved by the electrical inspector. In my opinion here is why: The electrical inspector knows the electrician is licensed and just takes a quick look, lazy. Where as when a homeowner gets the permit and does the work, the inspector looks everything over in great detail. Many times they will require extra work that really is not necessary just because you didn't hire their buddy to do the work for you. They are also ticked that they have to look things over in great detail and take it out on the homeowner. I have been a victim of this in the past from a state inspector. After much stress and lies, I put the inspector in his place. Everything was done right and to code and he still wouldn't approve the job. I contacted home depot and demanded my money back for all of the parts. The manager had the inspector right back to my house signing off on the work. This situation was with a wood burning stove. I had a friend help to install the wood burner and the inspector couldn't find anything wrong but still made up some story that that particular wood stove was not allowed. He seemed like a nutcase. Up north we are used to doing things ourselves.

Edited October 11, 2014 by GrowGoddess

[Habenero]

As for the breaker box still having live breakers after the main is shut down, well, it is up to code and has been fully approved.

 

I have never seen it before and I don't like it. The reason why I know it is supposed to be like this is because it says so in the main panel. It has 4 separate mains that individually effect each side. I guess in a sens there is no actual Main. Newest breaker box I have messed with. Again, I am not a fan of it. It is 125 amp copper or 120 aluminum square D box.

 

It was installed, inspected, and approved just before I bought the house.

 

As for professionals: Well, I have seen so much bad work done by so called professionals. There have been plenty of houses that I have gone into that licensed electricians did the work, I take my handy little tester and the positive and neutral wires have been reversed. Licensed doesn't mean all that much to me. It all boils down to the ethics of the worker. I can't count how many times I have removed outlets and the wires weren't even bent in the right direction around the screw. Half the time they don't even bend the wire, just straight bare wire next to the screw. I call that lazy and dangerous.

There's bad work done by any professional in any field. That doesn't mean you should pick some random dude who is untrained and unlicensed to do your electrical work as if they are gonna somehow be more ethical. A random carpenter doing the wor k of an electrician is unethical to begin with if you wanna talk ethics.

 

There are bad electricians just like there are bad doctors. But bad usually means lazy. I can see an electrician cutting corners to make a job faster but reversing polarity doesn't save time and there's just be no reason to do that. Put it this way, if you think some random percentage of electricians are bad at their job what do you think the percentage is of carpenters that are bad at the electrician's job. Obviously a lot higher.

 

A 4 pole main will have all of the switches tied together with a handle tie. That's a code requirement. They should have a permanent handle tie in common so if one trips they all trip. But there is no way you should have breakers still getting power if your main is off. The breakers snap into place on a common hot bus bar. That's how they get power. If one of the breakers is getting power then every breaker on that bus will also have power. There's no way around it. So if you have breakers getting power when other breakers on the same bus are not then that is some serious jerry-rigged stuff. And by seriously I mean darn near impossible because if power is flowing to a breaker that is connected to a bus then it also has no choice but to flow on the bus and to the other breakers. I could foresee a situation where someone jerry-rigged a panel to steal power and they bypassed the main and connected direct to the bus somehow. That would cause a situation where your breakers were getting power even when the main was off but even in that situation all of the breakers on the bus would have power not just some.

 

No offense but the situation you are describing is either a mistake by you or you have some serious very serious very very serious problems with your panel that need to be checked out yesterday.

[Habenero]

A quick follow up. Most preoccupied houses sold are not inspected by an electrical inspector prior to sale. If something is wrong in the main panel it doesn't mean it passed an inspection. It could mean that the previous owner messed with it sometime after it was installed and inspected.

[GrowGoddess]

A lot of assumptions being made here.

 

I mentioned a couple of times that permits were pulled. There was new construction and I had nothing to do with it.

 

The people that sold it to me had the new construction done and pulled the permits. Obviously new construction means inspections.

 

I didn't realize until I took a closer look that the 4 top breakers are each individual mains. I didn't notice at first because the notes on the panel indicate Dryer, Furnace, Well, and something else. I never needed to take the box apart so I just haven't. I have replaced a couple of breakers and added on, but that has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

I am not sure 100% if it is up to code or not. I really don't care, it appears perfectly safe to me. I have been here 10 years. The reason why I don't like it is when I turned off an individual main, I thought I turned off the whole system. It only turned off part of it and I had a live outlet that I was getting to change. Luckily I had my wiggy and tested it first.

 

I haven't looked into it any further than what I have today. Never had any problems to warrant it.

 

Funny, but my electrician friend's husband was a better electrician than she was! LOL He is a carpenter and drywall hanger! LOL!

 

I guess it all depends on where you live an who you know. Up here in this small community reputation for doing good work carries more value than a license. At least for people hiring locally.

[Habenero]

Just turning off the main sometimes is not good enough. For some reason my breaker box was approved even though when you turn off the main there is still power in the box to certain breakers! I don't know if it is something new, but it was approved (I bought the house with it that way). All new set up, it must have been approved unless the electrician pulled the meter themselves.

 

 

A lot of assumptions being made here.

 

I mentioned a couple of times that permits were pulled. There was new construction and I had nothing to do with it.

 

The people that sold it to me had the new construction done and pulled the permits. Obviously new construction means inspections.

 

I didn't realize until I took a closer look that the 4 top breakers are each individual mains. I didn't notice at first because the notes on the panel indicate Dryer, Furnace, Well, and something else. I never needed to take the box apart so I just haven't. I have replaced a couple of breakers and added on, but that has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

I am not sure 100% if it is up to code or not. I really don't care, it appears perfectly safe to me. I have been here 10 years. The reason why I don't like it is when I turned off an individual main, I thought I turned off the whole system. It only turned off part of it and I had a live outlet that I was getting to change. Luckily I had my wiggy and tested it first.

 

I haven't looked into it any further than what I have today. Never had any problems to warrant it.

 

Funny, but my electrician friend's husband was a better electrician than she was! LOL He is a carpenter and drywall hanger! LOL!

 

I guess it all depends on where you live an who you know. Up here in this small community reputation for doing good work carries more value than a license. At least for people hiring locally.

Well there are assumption but you shouldn't assume. First you said it was approved and then you said it "must've been approved unless..."

 

So you assumed it was approved. But maybe there was no inspection to begin with. An electrician doesn't need to pull the meter to install an new panel.

 

But even if you assume it was approved, like I said, there is nothing stopping someone from messing with it after it's approved. Doesn't seem likely that it would be approved without the main switches being tied. That is basic stuff and you can see that failure without even pulling the front off the panel.

 

But whether it was approved doesn't matter. What matters is that you get to the bottom of the errant power. If your main is off there shouldn't be power to random circuits. Just because you lived with it 10 years doesn't mean it is safe and will never be a problem. If someone jumpered a wire that bypasses the meter (to steal power)and the main breaker for example then you have no main breaker to protect the live circuits and you have no breaker to protect the jerried jumper wire. That means a short can occur by a mouse chewing that wire in the wall and it will arc continuously until a full blown fire erupts. That isn't safe. You need to figure out where the errant power is coming from. I urge you to do that.

 

Also, if your carpenter friend was a better electrician than your electrician friend then that doesn't speak so well about her electrician skills. But that also doesn't mean that every carpenter has enough knowledge to do electrical work. Most don't. There's a lot more goes into being an electrician than knowing how to wire a ceiling fan or an outlet box. Like I said you brought up ethics of an electrician but then you ignored the ethics bit when it came to having someone unlicensed doing the work.

[Hydraulic Jack]

Any electrician that would even consider changing a panel without pulling the meter is out of his f u c k i n g mind...I'm a retired local 58 IBEW electrican...I installed services in commercial/industrial buildings and I know of NO ONE who would do that....What is this 4 pole main your talking about? Residential services are only 2 pole.....What it sounds like she has is a panel with a lighting main below the 220v circuits...HJ

[jointedone]

Our old house is so not up to code. But it matters not,we are planning on croaking here.

[GrowGoddess]

Any electrician that would even consider changing a panel without pulling the meter is out of his f u c k i n g mind...I'm a retired local 58 IBEW electrican...I installed services in commercial/industrial buildings and I know of NO ONE who would do that....What is this 4 pole main your talking about? Residential services are only 2 pole.....What it sounds like she has is a panel with a lighting main below the 220v circuits...HJ

 

you must be right HJ. Just never saw a box like it before.

 

When I say new construction, the new construction is what contains the breaker box. Consumers would not hook up to just some joe shmo installed box.

 

Thanks HJ, clears things up in my head.

 

Edit: That makes sens in this way too: I am on agricultural land. It may have been requested or a requirement due to the zoning. It was just a small cabin and it was added on to to become a house.

 

Like you explained to me in the past, the newer appliance cords have the extra red wire. That is all available but I have a three wire system on my dryer. It is all there up to newer code in the box (if I changed the outlet and plug to accommodate it). I just used the older method with the three wires since that was my existing plug set up. 

Edited October 11, 2014 by GrowGoddess

[GrowGoddess]

Our old house is so not up to code. But it matters not,we are planning on croaking here.

 

You got it right.

 

I plan on croaking here too!

[Habenero]

Any electrician that would even consider changing a panel without pulling the meter is out of his f u c k i n g mind...I'm a retired local 58 IBEW electrican...I installed services in commercial/industrial buildings and I know of NO ONE who would do that....What is this 4 pole main your talking about? Residential services are only 2 pole.....What it sounds like she has is a panel with a lighting main below the 220v circuits...HJ

Yeah I wouldn't do it bro but it is done and I've seen it done. But that's beside the point.

 

I don't know where you're coming up with a lighting main. The way she described it there is no main breaker except for these 4 untied breakers that don't cut all of the power. She said that with them off there are still live breakers. How do you explain that and how do you explain no main breaker? On top of that a lighting main wouldn't ever require 4 circuits in a residential application.

 

Growgoddess maybe you can post a picture of your panel.

[garyfisher]

Reversing polarity is a common problem among people who don't understand how to do it right.

Luckily, that is not an issue with 220v. 

 

GG, i dont understand how your box would still have power after tripping the main.  Something is not working right but I'm not electrician.

[jointedone]

We have 2 boxes,because the house was added onto twice. And another one for the whole house generator. Built in 1947,you should see the wiring,all wrapped up in weird paper gluey stuff. Even our telephone pole is like that. I call it UNIQUE, Oh and last night a fire for the first time this year,a stupid squirell was in it,what an uproar! 2 crazy JRTs and a big dummy German Shepard,that  dude didn't make it a foot,lol! Ah,country living at its best!

[GrowGoddess]

Yeah I wouldn't do it bro but it is done and I've seen it done. But that's beside the point.

 

I don't know where you're coming up with a lighting main. The way she described it there is no main breaker except for these 4 untied breakers that don't cut all of the power. She said that with them off there are still live breakers. How do you explain that and how do you explain no main breaker? On top of that a lighting main wouldn't ever require 4 circuits in a residential application.

 

Growgoddess maybe you can post a picture of your panel.

 

First - Very sorry for hijacking the thread discussing my breaker box.

 

I am with HJ- anyone that does that is crazy!

 

I never said turning off all 4 mains will there still be power going to some circuits. When looking at the breakers only one is marked MAIN. Without having looked at the center of the panel which indicates all 4 are Main disconnects, highlighted in the first photo, I was confused at why there was still power going to some circuits. The box was strange to me, never saw one like it before. The box indicates that it has 4 mains and you need to turn them all off. I never looked at it that closely until just recently.

 

Coincidentally I can post a picture... This is the first time in 5 years I could even take a photo of my box and I would prefer not to say why as it would initiate further discussions..... 

 

 

I tried looking up the model online and could not find it.

 

In my old house I had an old fuse box with a 60 amp service that had dual main slow blow fuses.

 

Actually, now that I have thought about it, my current breaker box is potentially more safe in regards to fire hazards or electrocution. The reason why is the largest breaker is 60 amp vs. the standard 100 amp main. Mine is 100 amp but the largest MAIN is 60 amp.

 

Hope this helps clear up any confusion, it did for me.

[GrowGoddess]

I found some information about my panel. It is a Split-Bus Panel. 

 

I guess there is a "6 throw rule" in regards to shutting off all power to the breakers. Mine is a 4 throw set up.

 

Here is a write up that explains it. http://activerain.trulia.com/blogsview/2371182/my-electrical-panel-has-no-main-breaker---is-that-a-problem-

 

I feel better now knowing what I have and that it is legit.

[Restorium2]

A lot of auxillary power boxes are wired separately, branched off before the main box, and are not effected by shutting off the main(s) in the main box. I've rented houses where you shut the main box down and there are still lights on in the house. That usually means someone added an auxillary box that you have not found. I like to pull the meter when in doubt. I always pull the meter when I have a power outage and want to run my generator. I'm a 'meter puller' from way back. lol Why not, it's easy .....

[GrowGoddess]

Well, pulling the meter is not something I would recommend or advertise.

 

Pulling a meter requires professional equipment to do it safely i.e. high voltage boots and gloves. Besides, if I am not mistaken, it is illegal.

 

There is are kits for generator that mounts inside at or near the panel. Meant to avoid pulling the meter.

 

Seriously, I would delete what you said about admitting to pulling the meter.

[jointedone]

That is the same one we have but older.

[Restorium2]

Well, pulling the meter is not something I would recommend or advertise.

 

Pulling a meter requires professional equipment to do it safely i.e. high voltage boots and gloves. Besides, if I am not mistaken, it is illegal.

 

There is are kits for generator that mounts inside at or near the panel. Meant to avoid pulling the meter.

 

Seriously, I would delete what you said about admitting to pulling the meter.

Sure, wear rubber boots and gloves. It's no more dangerous than shutting off your mains. Wear insolated shoes and gloves when doing that too if you are smart. It's not illegal to pull your meter. It's illegal to tamper with it though. 

[Hydraulic Jack]

I thought this was a split bus panel you were talking about, that's why I mentioned the lighting main.....But you said that it was new... All ya need is dry leather gloves and dry shoes to pull the meter...The scary part is when you hook up the line side of the service to the drop....I used to just tell who was with me that if they see me in trouble kick the ladder out from under me.....HJ

[GrowGoddess]

So you are right, it is a lighting main. Never heard that term before but makes perfect sense. 

 

It was all new construction. I guess the one thing that was not new was the breaker box. They must have used the one from the original cabin.

 

I am glad they did too. I kind of feel lucky. Normally the split bus system consumes (6) 220 breakers which does not leave much room for the lower or lighting bus. Mine has (4) 220 breakers or mains and is just right for me. Now that i know how this works, it will be a walk in the park hooking a generator up to the lower or lighting bus panel. That is all I will need hooked up during a power outage. I can get by without an oven and washing machine. Since I can easily terminate the power to the lower bus that should make it quite easy to have a generator hook up to operate only the lower bus.

 

Learning this has made me motivated to finally get a back up generator for that purpose.

 

Thanks again HJ!

 

 

Edit: I must agree with these electricians about pulling meters: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=132640 Best left for the power company or electrician.

Edited October 12, 2014 by GrowGoddess

[Hydraulic Jack]

You can't hook up a generator to feed the whole panel due to the fact that the top part of the panel is in a way hard wired to the edison system through the meter.....The only way to hook up a generator would be to pull the meter..HJ

Edited October 12, 2014 by Hydro Jack

[GrowGoddess]

Not looking to hook up and energize the whole panel, just a portion of it, the sub panel. The only part I would need energized during an outage.

 

My friend did have to have the meter pulled to hook up their generator.

 

Don't think I could afford a generator capable of operating the whole house anyway.

 

I am liking those 6000W honda's and they are expensive.

 

Edit: At this point though, if I can't do it myself or my carpenter friend can't then it ain't gonna happen. Can't really have strangers at the house right now inspecting things... if you get my drift.

Edited October 12, 2014 by GrowGoddess

[Hydraulic Jack]

What I'm saying is you would have to pull the meter (and leave it pulled during the outage) every time  you need energize the panel via the generator ....HJ

[Restorium2]

What I'm saying is you would have to pull the meter (and leave it pulled during the outage) every time  you need energize the panel via the generator ....HJ

Keeps you from having surges while the grid recovers. My power doesn't go out much so I don't want to pay for the disconnect hardware. It's like $80. Pulling the meter is so easy anyway.