Coa Rules In Redden-Clark Case

[peanutbutter]

Green Cross

 

As far as the patient goes, when the MDCH looks at the letter it is up to them to verify it is a real doctor that is licensed to practice in Michigan.

 

From that point forward, the patient is no longer in question.

 

The doctor might be. But actions against doctors start at the regulatory agency. Not as a side effect of the patient being drug into court.

 

Current attempts are being directed against patients. Patients are being expected to prove the doctor was correct.

 

It is not the place of a judge to second guess a doctor.

 

The MDCH issues an ID card that proves a doctors letter existed. There is no need for a doctor to be in court to defend a patient. The state has already verified a real doctor issued the letter.

[bobandtorey]

Green Cross

 

As far as the patient goes, when the MDCH looks at the letter it is up to them to verify it is a real doctor that is licensed to practice in Michigan.

 

From that point forward, the patient is no longer in question.

 

The doctor might be. But actions against doctors start at the regulatory agency. Not as a side effect of the patient being drug into court.

 

Current attempts are being directed against patients. Patients are being expected to prove the doctor was correct.

 

It is not the place of a judge to second guess a doctor.

 

The MDCH issues an ID card that proves a doctors letter existed. There is no need for a doctor to be in court to defend a patient. The state has already verified a real doctor issued the letter.

 

Thank you Thank you thats how i see it also the Doc was in court and testified for over 3 hours that should do it

set us FREE!

[peanutbutter]

Thank you Thank you thats how i see it also the Doc was in court and testified for over 3 hours that should do it

set us FREE!

 

Your doctor should have never been there.

 

The MDCH already checked him out. Should have been the end of that story.

[Dr. Bob]

Your doctor should have never been there.

 

The MDCH already checked him out. Should have been the end of that story.

 

I believe that there are officials out there that don't like this law, they don't like to respect the right of medical patients to use marijuana, and they will do anything and everything they can to try and over come it and get their way. That is why city attorneys are recommending the police sit outside compassion clubs and question everyone that leaves to see if they are 'medicated'. This was the approach she recommended if 'you (the city officials present at the conference) don't think this is a good land use' or words to that effect. Her stated goal was to generate test cases for the courts and make the compassion clubs 'go away'. Sounds like she was inciting police harassment of MMJ patients, but that is just my opinion.

 

Should the courts call the doc in? No, the paperwork is there. The problem is they are using the signature mills as an excuse to question all the docs. So the professional clinics need to tighten their game, develop standards, and act like any other medical clinic. Patients need to stop looking at price and 'ease of certification' at these mills. It absolutely amazes me that even some of the very compassion groups at the forefront of this movement are unaware of the Redden decision, or don't care, and simply look at price over defensibility. I guess some more patients are going to have to get nailed before they wake up and smell the coffee and get rid of the 'pay your money and take your chances' clinics.

 

Just my two cents, I am heading out to do some more clinics and help some patients.

 

Dr. Bob

[+RevThad]

I believe that there are officials out there that don't like this law, they don't like to respect the right of medical patients to use marijuana, and they will do anything and everything they can to try and over come it and get their way. That is why city attorneys are recommending the police sit outside compassion clubs and question everyone that leaves to see if they are 'medicated'. This was the approach she recommended if 'you (the city officials present at the conference) don't think this is a good land use' or words to that effect. Her stated goal was to generate test cases for the courts and make the compassion clubs 'go away'. Sounds like she was inciting police harassment of MMJ patients, but that is just my opinion.

 

Should the courts call the doc in? No, the paperwork is there. The problem is they are using the signature mills as an excuse to question all the docs. So the professional clinics need to tighten their game, develop standards, and act like any other medical clinic. Patients need to stop looking at price and 'ease of certification' at these mills. It absolutely amazes me that even some of the very compassion groups at the forefront of this movement are unaware of the Redden decision, or don't care, and simply look at price over defensibility. I guess some more patients are going to have to get nailed before they wake up and smell the coffee and get rid of the 'pay your money and take your chances' clinics.

 

Just my two cents, I am heading out to do some more clinics and help some patients.

 

Dr. Bob

Hey Doc,

 

You bring up some good points. Wouldn't the proper channel for challenging these "signature mills" be going through the various licensing boards or investigative divisions in regards to the rubber stamps of some doctors? Just playing devil's advocate for a moment. If the conduct of a doctor is inappropriate there are other channels, you don't arrest the patient to attack the doctor.

 

The MMMAct allows for the prosecutor to rebut "the conduct" of a patient or caregiver, not the qualifying condition. Relying on O'Connell's opinion would logically also lead to following his other recommendation, that nobody in the state of Michigan use marijuana in any way, until the Supreme Court rules on the entirety of the law... In this vary recommendation, his position is made clear and renders it moot. His intention is not to clarify the law, but to change and or ignore it.

 

Just my opinion, and keep up the great work of helping out those patients that are in need of good sound medical advice.

[bobandtorey]

you don't arrest the patient to attack the doctor.

 

Thank you Rev that has been are point all along why drag us back to court because of these so called mill's

[bobandtorey]

I believe that there are officials out there that don't like this law, they don't like to respect the right of medical patients to use marijuana, and they will do anything and everything they can to try and over come it and get their way. That is why city attorneys are recommending the police sit outside compassion clubs and question everyone that leaves to see if they are 'medicated'. This was the approach she recommended if 'you (the city officials present at the conference) don't think this is a good land use' or words to that effect. Her stated goal was to generate test cases for the courts and make the compassion clubs 'go away'. Sounds like she was inciting police harassment of MMJ patients, but that is just my opinion.

 

Should the courts call the doc in? No, the paperwork is there. The problem is they are using the signature mills as an excuse to question all the docs. So the professional clinics need to tighten their game, develop standards, and act like any other medical clinic. Patients need to stop looking at price and 'ease of certification' at these mills. It absolutely amazes me that even some of the very compassion groups at the forefront of this movement are unaware of the Redden decision, or don't care, and simply look at price over defensibility. I guess some more patients are going to have to get nailed before they wake up and smell the coffee and get rid of the 'pay your money and take your chances' clinics.

 

Just my two cents, I am heading out to do some more clinics and help some patients.

 

Dr. Bob

 

Hello Doc every time i read your post i see you trying to tell people that your clinic is the only one that is legal

now don't take this wrong i do thank you for helping people do you think things would be different if we had saw you instead of the THC-F were you around inn March of 09 ? are Doc was inn Court for us end of story for the PA THEY HAVE NO CASE Torey has just got home from the Hospital and was their for 1 week Stress it is called Stress the same stress that has killed the guy in Ferndale that the PA is trying to put on her am OK it's her that worries me so

she is a member of Easter Seals for 10+ years and all of this is not Helping her

again be for i hit the Enter button below this is not against you

[+Silverblue]

I had a thought about leo sitting outside the cc as people are leaving, to see if they're medicated. That won't prove they did anything at the club because people can medicate before they go and if they ingest it there's no smell so either way it's not proof. I hope people don't bring anything to the meetings, not even medibles. we can't afford to give our opponents any more to use against us.

 

B&T, I'm so sorry about all the stress people are enduring. I know I couldn't handle it. At least you have each other.

 

Sb

[Dr. Bob]

Hello Doc every time i read your post i see you trying to tell people that your clinic is the only one that is legal

now don't take this wrong i do thank you for helping people do you think things would be different if we had saw you instead of the THC-F were you around inn March of 09 ? are Doc was inn Court for us end of story for the PA THEY HAVE NO CASE Torey has just got home from the Hospital and was their for 1 week Stress it is called Stress the same stress that has killed the guy in Ferndale that the PA is trying to put on her am OK it's her that worries me so

she is a member of Easter Seals for 10+ years and all of this is not Helping her

again be for i hit the Enter button below this is not against you

 

I don't view it as against me. Nor do I say anywhere mine is the only good clinic out there. There are many, including the one that saw you back in 09. My only point is that your case showed what the authorities are trying to do. I and several other professional clinics are working together to counter it and protect/defend patients. Unfortunately, there are others that don't have the same standards. Not knowing how they planned on attacking cards and doing what, from what I saw in the opinions, was actually a very acceptable certification is different than knowing (or not bothering to know) specifically what they are looking for and still not doing it. History, physical, notes, and follow up. A good clean license and DEA helps too, and in fact a referral from the primary doc would be great if available.

 

Dr. bob

[Dr. Bob]

I had a thought about leo sitting outside the cc as people are leaving, to see if they're medicated. That won't prove they did anything at the club because people can medicate before they go and if they ingest it there's no smell so either way it's not proof. I hope people don't bring anything to the meetings, not even medibles. we can't afford to give our opponents any more to use against us.

 

B&T, I'm so sorry about all the stress people are enduring. I know I couldn't handle it. At least you have each other.

 

Sb

 

It is harassment pure and simple, attempting to intimidate and drive out patient organizations. My heart goes out to the victims.

[Dr. Bob]

Hey Doc,

 

You bring up some good points. Wouldn't the proper channel for challenging these "signature mills" be going through the various licensing boards or investigative divisions in regards to the rubber stamps of some doctors? Just playing devil's advocate for a moment. If the conduct of a doctor is inappropriate there are other channels, you don't arrest the patient to attack the doctor.

 

The MMMAct allows for the prosecutor to rebut "the conduct" of a patient or caregiver, not the qualifying condition. Relying on O'Connell's opinion would logically also lead to following his other recommendation, that nobody in the state of Michigan use marijuana in any way, until the Supreme Court rules on the entirety of the law... In this vary recommendation, his position is made clear and renders it moot. His intention is not to clarify the law, but to change and or ignore it.

 

Just my opinion, and keep up the great work of helping out those patients that are in need of good sound medical advice.

 

Quite true Rev. But the point of attack here is the law and the card. It would be great if no one suffered and needed a card. It would be great if once the card was issued, that was the end of it. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that is the case. So what we need to do is give them as little ammo as possible. We need to educate docs on this subject so they are comfortable writing certs. Hospital systems, insurance etc need to stop banning their docs from writing even though the circumstances are appropriate for certification. Doctors need to stop cutting folks off from their pain meds just because they got a card. And the courts need to stop threatening docs for writing certifications (look at the recommendation from criminal charges for perjury in the CO).

 

As for the mills, it is difficult to bring charges before the board for several reasons. Most patients that come in to be certified already know they qualify and in a pinch can prove it, even if they go to a 'no records, no hassle' clinic. So even if the certification doc doesn't run through the hoops set up by the court, the end result is that the cert was appropriate in most cases, so no harm no foul in the eyes of the board. The doc in reality didn't 'show his work' but came up with the right answer. The problem is for the patient. If the card is attacked in court, the goal is to invalidate the card and prosecute the patient. To do this they will attack the doctor patient relationship and/or the doctor. If either can be impeached, then the card stands to be invalidated.

 

To protect against this possibility, the steps need to be followed, the paperwork in order, and the doc needs to be clean. Those are the key points, not the price alone. Before a compassion club associates with a certification clinic, or a dispensary honors their paperwork, it would be good to see how they conduct the clinic and check up on the docs they use with the state. If a history, exam, chart and follow up are offered, and doc checks out, go with them. If not, and they won't address it to your satisfaction, avoid them.

 

Dr. Bob

[Eric L. VanDussen]

Order denying reconsideration - http://coa.courts.mi.gov/documents/coa/public/orders/2010/295809(52)_order.pdf

 

On November 9, 2010, Redden and Clark's attorney filed an Application for Leave to Appeal with Michigan's Supreme Court.

[+RevThad]

lINK DOESNT WORK

Try this one

 

That one should

[bobandtorey]

Try this one

 

That one should

 

when people hid then you know something is wrong

[phaquetoo]

It seems to me that finding a good dr to work with who will follow up and defend us is something we all should do, even if you were already approved through some clinic like the ones dr bob is against because the patient never sees them again. Even if it means paying a little more to have a dr who will be there to follow up and defend the patient if need be, the peace of mind is priceless. It's not just about MM, but monitoring our health. Too many drs don't care, so when you find one who's willing to come here, be part of this site and explain his policies to us, it's worth serious consideration. It's worth saving up the money to see someone like him. I don't know if he accepts any insurance. I may've asked him but he hasn't replied. It means a lot to me, knowing we have professional people at this site whho are willing to take time from their busy lives to help us. Knowing there are people who care is very comforting, especially now.

 

Sb

 

 

Hi Sb

 

I realy hate saying this on here. so i will do it gently (not my style) the hole reason i searched out a dr. for my rec was so i could have a pt. dr relationship with them.

 

Im afraid one day these nice folks that are helping sick people and just people alike are not going to be an acceptable way to get certified, (i have nothing against mm friendly dr.s)

Kinda like the ringling bro's set up stay a day or 2 and gone! there are clinics on here saying they will certify you with or w/o records. now im thinkin that could be a prob,

 

1 are they going to represent you in court if need be?

2 how are they going to be able to truly rep you when they dont even give you an exam( i went with my lady to get hers, we told dr. to put chronic pain)

3 no patient dr. relationship,,,(kinda like a cattle line, you got 200 bucks you get certified)

 

as gentle as i could be, now im not against this, like said it dont change the qualifying condition of the patient, it just makes it kinda hard for that dr to come to court for you like bob and torey's did! (alot of peeps that go to them do not have a qualifying condition to get a rec from a dr. with a real practice!)

 

I wish they would just legalize it, keep the plant counts the same for every one who is of legal age, and put our tax dollars to better use than arresting people who are doing something way less harmful than alcohol(legal) prescription meds(legal in most cases)

 

I dont ever think i read on the news where some one burned a dube and ran over a bunch of kids at a bus stop have you? I have read lots more bad accidents that are alcohol related and even opoid related!

 

Time to Free The Weed!

 

Peace

Jim

[phaquetoo]

Thank you Thank you thats how i see it also the Doc was in court and testified for over 3 hours that should do it

set us FREE!

 

 

Agreed Set them Free! NOW!

 

Havent these nice people been thru enough? you would think you were killing people with bullets or heroine the way they are treating the both of you!

 

so much for honoring our vetrans eh bob?

 

I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and you and torey are in my prayers everyday! I only know you from on here and the vids ive seen with you (awsome job) I couldnt think of a better person to represent us, I just wish you were doing it cause you wanted to and not have too!

 

God Bless you and torey and may this end yesterday!

 

Peace

FTW

Jim

[bobandtorey]

Well we are not inn the supreme court any more for the Doc. thing they drop-ed that now they say we had to much MM and plants

the PA knew it would be to hard to prove any thing against the Doc i think the Supreme court wont even here this they might just say case dismissed and then all of this will be for nothing that way no one wins

[phaquetoo]

Well we are not inn the supreme court any more for the Doc. thing they drop-ed that now they say we had to much MM and plants

the PA knew it would be to hard to prove any thing against the Doc i think the Supreme court wont even here this they might just say case dismissed and then all of this will be for nothing that way no one wins

 

 

no one wins and you lose your meds, home and peace of mind, and no telling what other damage this is doing to you! hang in there you will prevail, God Willing!

 

Peace Bro!

Jim

[Dr. Bob]

I'll keep an eye on your case. Best of luck my friends.

 

Dr. Bob

[Broken]

This whole situation is really b.s. What do people do that can't afford to go to a doctor and get x-rays, and fallow up appointments do. I don't need a doctor to tell me that I have severe chronic pain! That is one of the qualifying reason's to use mm period.

 

I don't have insurance, have not had it in years. I'm unemployed because my trade is almost dead in this state. I'm living off of my wife's income right now while i try to go to school. A licensed doctor sat down with me and I told him about my pains, he signed my form. That should be good enough.

 

I suffer from neck pains that keep me from sleeping, not to mention joint pain. It also helps me deal with PTSD from undergoing multiple serious surgeries at a younger age. These surgeries don't apply directly to my physical pain.

 

Dr. Bob I appreciate you trying to solidify the medical practice, but I simply can't afford the tests that it would take to have a true medical history. Any suggestions on what I could do?

[Wild Bill]

I simply can't afford the tests that it would take to have a true medical history. Any suggestions on what I could do?

Suffer and die, it's good for the economy...but don't forget to send in those taxes first!

[Guest thequietone]

Stlhdr, I have moved your off topic post to the thread you started on the subject. This is an important case and all discussion should stay on point.

[lawyercaregiver]

Well we are not inn the supreme court any more for the Doc. thing they drop-ed that now they say we had to much MM and plants

the PA knew it would be to hard to prove any thing against the Doc i think the Supreme court wont even here this they might just say case dismissed and then all of this will be for nothing that way no one wins

 

Can you clarify this please? Who told you the prosecutor dropped the argument on medical certification? If so that seems to be great but it is a mother fudder move. Now the issue is not decided and the next prosecutor can screw up a persons life at will by making the patient justify his medical certification.

 

Well, actually it IS great for Bobntorey- gratz!!

 

So the argument is plant count now? As I recall you had 21 plants and 2 patients. Is 21 less than 24?

[kruztydj]

Thats thier fuzzy math part dont ya know.................

asses

[phaquetoo]

Not end-of-story, sorry to say. Some examples where a card can be invalidated include:

-- if a patient used false pretenses to get a card (eg: bogus medical records).

-- if a patient or caregiver provides (in any form, not just selling) mj to a person not allowed to possess it under the MMMAct.

-- if a doctor signed a recommendation without sufficient, valid proof that a patient has a qualifying condition.

 

A concern I have is when a doctor charges one price for an encounter -with- records, but a higher price -without- records.

I fear that, in the latter case, -all- patients' cards will be invalidated who received a signed recommendation from that doctor

found by a court to have conducted bogus or unprofessional patient encounters. To prevent this from happening a group

of doctors and lawyers are working up a set of Standards of Care meant to withstand scrutiny from any Court in Michigan.

 

Here's another potential problem: a patient without records pays a higher fee to a doctor who signs the recommendation

at a dispensary infamous for being shady, and that dispensary allows said patient to walk right over to the bud-tender area

and purchase meds without waiting the requisite 20 days for the paperwork to mature. Wouldn't moo-poo ya.. it happens now.

 

 

Im almost 48yrs old, I have waited a long time to get legal (never thought it would happen in my lifetime) so build a relationship with a dr. and get certified!

 

Green cross, I have to agree with ya! I think alot of peeps are going to be bumming one day, that got certified by a traveling clinic! been there with my lady!

They dont even ask for records, and no one that had 200 bucks walked out w/o a cert!! Im glad they have mm friendly dr.'s I just think it would be best if they had a fixed office and a real record of their patients that they make! Im all for weed to be legal to all! but it isnt and the ones that are getting certified for the wrong reasons are going to make it rough for the people who have qualifying conditions!

 

Peace

FTW

Jim