Overpriced Meds

[lkline300]

150 is legit... wanna be my caregiver

 

lol....

 

Is there profit in 150.00 ? Lets see some hands. No theory please, Y or N

[+RevThad]

One other factor plays a role here, and doesn't get talked about all that often. It is called redirection of meds.

 

There is a fine balancing point between a price that a cg and patient agree upon and the street market price of those meds. That price can affect either side of the equation and for the same reasons.

 

Example:

Patient A and Caregiver B come to an agreement that the first ounce each month will be free and subsequent ounces will be $200. Patient A won't have money to get any extra ounces this month, so sells their one free ounce on the street or to another patient for $450, calls Caregiver B and gets 2 more ounces for $400. This leaves Patient A with 2 ounces of medicine (to use or sell again) and $50 in their pocket for the month.

 

It is the same sort of phenomenon that occurs with other medications, especially the opiates. The legal channel costs go up to counter the absorption of redirected medications to the black market.

 

Just something to keep in mind...

[+RevThad]

Is there profit in 150.00 ? Lets see some hands. No theory please, Y or N

That isn't a simple yes or no question. The answer can be either. A good harvest brings down the break even point, and there in lies the rub. Just like there is changing prices for the cost of wheat, corn, and oranges....

[lkline300]

I agree rev, thats why it's so important to find patient/caregivers that can work together honestly, together to make sure everyone gets what they need.

 

A caregiver who has a patient that only needs 2 a month can provide for that pateint efficiently.

 

I try not to concern myself with street prices or any other prices for that matter. I have that luxury. Not that I have a lot but I have what I need.

 

Trying to build a better world for at least myself & my patients. Hopeing it will catch on.

 

Naive, probably, but no ones taking advantage so far...

 

Gardner's pay no costs & meds 4 free... I've been smiling since a year ago april.

 

I guess it comes down to what you need. Some need the business & the income. Some just need the journey.

[westmich]

The patient has appointed the CG to care after, grow, and cure the meds which ALL belong to the Patient ONLY. Now say theres alot of overage from those 12 plants that the Patient didn't take, well to bad its the Patients meds and the CG has no right to transfer the Patients meds to a Dispensary, another Patient.

 

There is no basis for this in the MMMA, or in common English law, or just plain common sense. I have never heard a patient so worried about this who didn't grow for himself (except maybe ROM?).

 

Patients should understand that they are signing over their right to poses 12 plants to their caregiver. This right has a value. It has a value to the patient and it certainly has a value to the CG. The patient is bringing something of value to the table when he negotiates with a CG and let no one tell you different. The first thing a patient should ask a potential CG is "what's in it for me"? If the CG says nothing other than the standard retail price that he would get from a dispensary or off the street, keep walking.

[Guest sub4me]

So what you never heard of it?? Well now you have. No where does the LAW say the CG owns the Plants, NO the PATIENT owns the Plants the CG only grows and cares for the plants. ANY meds that come from those Plants ARE NOT the CGs it ALL belongs to the PATIENT ONLY. This is a point may CGs don't understand or I should say don't want to understand. Why?? Simple, money. They want to make profits off your meds. Thats the idea alot of the CGs have making money. Thats why some will give a ounce free a month. Why?? Because that cost them nothing their real bread and butter comes from selling the meds that belong to the PATIENT to someone else. No one Patient is gonna consume 12 plants worth every grow and thats exactly what these CGs are planning on, making money off your illness and the meds that belong to YOU not the CG. Another problem we touched on earlier is the using CG whos not a Patient. This is bad all the way around. Think about it, a CG that does not have a Patinet card but uses meds anyway, don't accept that as legitmate behavior, cause that guys using thier patients meds illegaly. Alot of guys who can't get a card go the CG route and then come here and announce I'm a CG and looking for Patients, problem is they can't be a CG without the Patient, so they make deals with patients to give them meds for free but the real motive is the intent on growing themselves, using ,and selling the meds. This is not what the MM law was designed for. Its for PATIENTS not greedy CGs who make tons of cash, devert meds to the black market, or use the meds themselves.

[Guest sub4me]

Yea that makes sense.

[westmich]

So what you never heard of it?? Well now you have. No where does the LAW say the CG owns the Plants, NO the PATIENT owns the Plants the CG only grows and cares for the plants. ANY meds that come from those Plants ARE NOT the CGs it ALL belongs to the PATIENT ONLY. This is a point may CGs don't understand or I should say don't want to understand. Why?? Simple, money. They want to make profits off your meds. Thats the idea alot of the CGs have making money. Thats why some will give a ounce free a month. Why?? Because that cost them nothing their real bread and butter comes from selling the meds that belong to the PATIENT to someone else. No one Patient is gonna consume 12 plants worth every grow and thats exactly what these CGs are planning on, making money off your illness and the meds that belong to YOU not the CG. Another problem we touched on earlier is the using CG whos not a Patient. This is bad all the way around. Think about it, a CG that does not have a Patinet card but uses meds anyway, don't accept that as legitmate behavior, cause that guys using thier patients meds illegaly. Alot of guys who can't get a card go the CG route and then come here and announce I'm a CG and looking for Patients, problem is they can't be a CG without the Patient, so they make deals with patients to give them meds for free but the real motive is the intent on growing themselves, using ,and selling the meds. This is not what the MM law was designed for. Its for PATIENTS not greedy CGs who make tons of cash, devert meds to the black market, or use the meds themselves.

 

You keep saying this but won't back it up with a legal quote.

 

Let's say you become my patient tomorrow, sign all the paperwork, and I can legally provide you meds in 20 days. Where does that come from? What plants in my home that you never paid for or brought to me are now yours? How did ownership transfer?

 

You are right to say I cannot legally poses plants, aside from my 12, without the patient. It's the patient that provides me the license to grow for him - nothing of mine that I have bought and paid or created from scratch transfers to him the moment my card comes in the mail.

 

You also sound like you are completely against any overages being sold back out to patients or dispensaries even if it benefits the patient. Do you understand the world you live in? How many caregivers would be ought there if they only grew just what you needed and destroyed the overages? I grow for others because it brings in extra money each month that family could really use. I guess that makes me greedy in your eyes.

[westmich]

Additionally, it is hard to argue that somebody owns something that they do not even have the right to possess...

 

Just because you can't legally own it doesn't mean you don't own it. LEO will sure consider it your property.

[Guest sub4me]

We all know where the law is and I'm not gonna post and quote it. I'll admit it is confusing. But theres nothing confusing about who OWNS the Patients plants, sorry CGs you don't get to own the plants and the meds, doesn't work that way and any meds your selling anywhere belongs to the patients your growing for period.

[westmich]

Sub, you don't have a leg to stand on and you know it. You have no law to back your position nor any court precedent.

[Otsego County Caregiver]

So what you never heard of it?? Well now you have. No where does the LAW say the CG owns the Plants, NO the PATIENT owns the Plants the CG only grows and cares for the plants. ANY meds that come from those Plants ARE NOT the CGs it ALL belongs to the PATIENT ONLY. This is a point may CGs don't understand or I should say don't want to understand. Why?? Simple, money. They want to make profits off your meds. Thats the idea alot of the CGs have making money. Thats why some will give a ounce free a month. Why?? Because that cost them nothing their real bread and butter comes from selling the meds that belong to the PATIENT to someone else. No one Patient is gonna consume 12 plants worth every grow and thats exactly what these CGs are planning on, making money off your illness and the meds that belong to YOU not the CG. Another problem we touched on earlier is the using CG whos not a Patient. This is bad all the way around. Think about it, a CG that does not have a Patinet card but uses meds anyway, don't accept that as legitmate behavior, cause that guys using thier patients meds illegaly. Alot of guys who can't get a card go the CG route and then come here and announce I'm a CG and looking for Patients, problem is they can't be a CG without the Patient, so they make deals with patients to give them meds for free but the real motive is the intent on growing themselves, using ,and selling the meds. This is not what the MM law was designed for. Its for PATIENTS not greedy CGs who make tons of cash, devert meds to the black market, or use the meds themselves.

 

 

I think you may be engaging in some pretty heavy psychological projection of CG intentions. You have no way of knowing the intentions of all these caregivers you rail against.

 

I think it's a poor way to make an argument and I find your broad brushing very offensive.

 

Tell ya what, make me your CG, retain your right to possess plants, and I'll give you a free ounce a month if you just quit this crying.

[Guest sub4me]

Boo hoo, I told the truth and stand up for the PATIENTS.

 

I find it offensive that CGs think a Patients Plants and Meds are thiers to do with as they please. This IS NOT the way the LAW is written.

[Otsego County Caregiver]

Boo hoo, I told the truth and stand up for the PATIENTS.

 

I find it offensive that CGs think a Patients Plants and Meds are thiers to do with as they please. This IS NOT the way the LAW is written.

 

I'm 100% serious about that offer I made you.

 

So, under your reading of the law, when I harvest 12 plants, I should just give everything to the patient, right?

[Guest sub4me]

I'm 100% serious about that offer I made you.

 

So, under your reading of the law, when I harvest 12 plants, I should just give everything to the patient, right?

 

First, no thanks.

 

Second, it does ALL belong to the Patient. Now if the Patient wishes you to transfer the extra that they didn't want or ask for thats a diffrent story. But until the CG gets approval fron the Patient, then yes the Patient owns the entire plant, including clippings, stems, seeds, all of it and only the Patient has the right to transfer or allow transfer, not the CG gardner.

[Otsego County Caregiver]

First, no thanks.

 

Second, it does ALL belong to the Patient. Now if the Patient wishes you to transfer the extra that they didn't want or ask for thats a diffrent story. But until the CG gets approval fron the Patient, then yes the Patient owns the entire plant, including clippings, stems, seeds, all of it and only the Patient has the right to transfer or allow transfer, not the CG gardner.

 

Like west said earlier, I think law enforcement would disagree. Possession, as they say, is nine tenths of the law.

 

There are lots of holes in your argument. Did the CG have the genetics of "your" plants prior to taking you on as a patient or did you? How often are you going to want "your" plants? Are these plants from clones or seed? Are cuttings from this plant that are used to grow medicine for someone else "yours" also? What if you don't acquire the gentics yourself and the CG just takes clones from another "patient's plant"? What if the CG agreed to grow 12 plants of a particular strain but then you decide you want 6 plants of another strain instead of the 12 originals?

 

These are rhetorical questions, of course, intended to illustrate the holes I'm referring to. No answers are expected.

 

I'm glad you mentioned a conversation between a CG and a patient, though. That seems to be what's missing in this conversation. If you and your CG agreed that she'd grow 12 plants for you and just hand them over when they're ripe, then fine, that's between you and your CG. I know very few CGs who will haul a pound or more of weed out to deliver to their patient. It's patently ridiculous to expect such a thing. If that's what you think CGs are mandated to do, I think you're grossly ill-informed. If you want exclusive right to overages, you should make that clear to your CG before either of you go any further.

 

Patients need to realize that they're in the driver's seat, here, and if your CG isn't doing what you want or agreed, then it only costs $10 to change to a CG that will. It really is that simple.

 

My patients and I sit down and determine how much they need to give them relief. I don't need to grow 12 plants every 8-12 weeks for a patient that only needs an ounce a month, and if I can grow additional plants so I can distribute the excess to dispensaries, other cgs, etc it makes it easier for me to keep the cost of producing their medicine down.

 

In any event, I advise all pats and cgs to sit down and hammer out an agreement prior to anything else in order to avoid any misconceptions.

[Guest sub4me]

I advise all pats and cgs to sit down and hammer out an agreement prior to anything else in order to avoid any misconceptions.

 

I agree, but the current CG system serves the CG not the Patient and gives the CG to much power. Yes it a simple few dollars to change, I get that, problem is finding a new CG that can be trusted. Its not like theres a approved list of certified CGs or some way to vet them, or really even know their intentions. Its jump on the web, go down to a CC you never heard of, or look in the Metro Times and such papers.

 

Next, lets say you find a CG who does everything you want and your so happy you found this new honset CG, well suppose he not so leagl and doing things you don't agree with or even know about. Then he gets in trouble, he gets all his plants and meds taken away. Guess who now doenst have meds?? The Patinet thats who.

 

Patients can not let CGs rule the supply of thier meds. This is a crazy system and is competly broken and riddled with greed.

[Otsego County Caregiver]

I agree, but the current CG system serves the CG not the Patient and gives the CG to much power. Yes it a simple few dollars to change, I get that, problem is finding a new CG that can be trusted. Its not like theres a approved list of certified CGs or some way to vet them, or really even know their intentions. Its jump on the web, go down to a CC you never heard of, or look in the Metro Times and such papers.

 

Next, lets say you find a CG who does everything you want and your so happy you found this new honset CG, well suppose he not so leagl and doing things you don't agree with or even know about. Then he gets in trouble, he gets all his plants and meds taken away. Guess who now doenst have meds?? The Patinet thats who.

 

Patients can not let CGs rule the supply of thier meds. This is a crazy system and is competly broken and riddled with greed.

 

First of all, no one is making anyone sign with a caregiver and it is up to the patient to perform due diligence and ask questions to determine if a caregiver is right for them. As a patient you are EMPLOYING the caregiver to produce medicine for you. As an employer, the onus is on you to determine through interviews, experience, growing techniques, and character references which employee is right for the job. There are even referral services you can take advantage of if you're having trouble. The tools exist, you just have to use them.

 

You're making a great argument for dispensaries getting overages in the second paragraph. If I have a cg get busted and everything is confiscated, I need to get medicine somewhere, and I'd thank my lucky stars that a "greedy" caregiver was filled with enough avarice and lust for money and power that he/she sold some overages to a local dispensary so I can get by until I find a new cg.

 

I disagree that cgs hold any power over a patient. They do only if you let them. CGs do shoulder the lions' share of the risk, however, and that is something that some folks don't fully appreciate or understand. The patient DECIDES who their cg is and whether or not they're going to grow plants or not. The patient can demand up front whatever he/she wants from the cg and will most likely get it, within reason. The patient can threaten to file the change form if the cg doesn't do what they say. Hell, they could even make a call to their local law enforcement agency and totally screw the CG.

 

Anyway, who cares, I'm done with this argument, I have gardening to do.

[+420Atheist]

No where does the LAW say the CG owns the Plants, NO the PATIENT owns the Plants the CG only grows and cares for the plants.

 

So your logic is since the law does not specifically say the caregiver owns the plants by default we should just have faith in your interpretation being the correct one? You refuse to present evidence to back your opinion saying we all know where the law is. That is nothing more than an attempt to shift the burden of proof to those who oppose your view. You made the positive statement it is your burden to prove. If you can't prove that the patient owns the plants then that part of the discussion is over.

 

This is not what the MM law was designed for. Its for PATIENTS not greedy CGs who make tons of cash

 

Again you include no evidence to backup your statements. You present a fallacy of authority called subjectivism, that is asserting a preposition to be true simply because you wish it were. Even with that your logic is flawed. Just because the law was designed and enacted to help patients does not in any way imply that caregivers are excluded from making a living helping those patients. For the matter of fact the available evidence shows the opposite to be true as the law states:

 

e) A registered primary caregiver may receive compensation for costs associated with assisting a registered qualifying patient in the medical use of marihuana. Any such compensation shall not constitute the sale of controlled substances.

 

Your logic is like saying the law that allowed for the creation of hospice care facilities was for dieing patients and not "greedy" corporations providing the care to get rich off of.

 

You can continue with the wishful thinking but without presenting evidence it will be difficult to take seriously.

[+RevThad]

The real fault in sub's logic is that it is quite possible that there aren't even 12 plants being grown for a particular patient. The law simply states that a primary caregiver can cultivate marijuana for a patient, and that no more than 12 plants can be grown per patient... It is quite possible to take care of 2 patients off of the same plant, depending on usage, 6 plants could provide a nice continuous harvest for such an arrangement. Which patient owns which plant?

 

Further, just looking at common sense and common law, the person that purchases an item typically owns that item, until the give it away.

 

Now some confusion may come from the way the MDCH has worded section C on the application, but it in no way changes what the law says.

[Kingdiamond]

This topic is like the terminator it cant be stopped.

 

[phaquetoo]

Is there profit in 150.00 ? Lets see some hands. No theory please, Y or N

 

 

Yes there would be!

Because im growing for myself and my girl already!

and we cant use the crop up as fast as the next one that comes

It would actual help me stay within my so called legal amount! lol

 

Peace

FTW

Jim

[phaquetoo]

Yea that makes sense.

 

Sub4me, Im glad you responded like this, Im looking to be a c.g, Im a patient and so is my significant other, we have rites to posses our plants, no c.g's at this time, I will have one and so will she when we become accomplished with our own meds and at least 2 patients a peice.

 

truth is i started out with a c.g, I gave a deposit to them (donation)when i signed c.g on. (my bad 150 dontion) supposedly to be gotten back when my plants are ready, they wanted 250 oz, and 25 a month for electric, and c.g did not seem to have much experience in growing. or making oil, hash, or anything! the day i signed c.g on. I was invited to c.gs home, I seen the plants he had going for his 1 legal patient ( a few indoors in dirt, and not to healthy looking) because I have been growing all of my life, I thought this to be ideal, c.g said I could help get things going, and show what i know to help the process along, well Long story short, I never seen any of my so called plants, or got any mm that was grown by that c.g, Oh yea I got meds a few times from c.g, at some ones house he sent me to alone,(someone i didnt know but do now) and another time i was instructed to go get my meds from c.gs house, that was hidden out side (in a top secret golf bag lol) again this was not from c.g got it from a dispense or some where,(not discussed where it came from,other than a source) there was an oz in a jelly jar, It was nice mm, and I figured it cost me 250 for the z like we prearranged when signing on. after i had it a day, c.g called and asked how much of it i wanted to keep, well I was happy with the quality and price, since i already gave my 150 dep and only owed 100 for it,(in my mind at least!?!) I said all of it, I was than asked if i could please give up a 1/4 of it for another of his patients (uh oh red flag) and deliver it to said patient! I reluctantly did ( i live in small town america and new some of this persons friends and knew it would be safe hopefuly) so I figure now deduct 67.50 from the hundy I owe and Im now paying 32.50 plus my 150 dep for the 3/4 of z!

(you follow me?) we are all good! c.g calls me and askes when am i going to pay for my meds? I say anytime where are you. than c.g tells me I owe something like 600 plus for the oz! You can figure the rest of the story!

 

Peace

FTW

Jim

 

(i did not want a g.r in my house cause of kids and all others getting popped at that time, reason I signd c.g in 1st place)

[Otsego County Caregiver]

The real fault in sub's logic is that it is quite possible that there aren't even 12 plants being grown for a particular patient. The law simply states that a primary caregiver can cultivate marijuana for a patient, and that no more than 12 plants can be grown per patient... It is quite possible to take care of 2 patients off of the same plant, depending on usage, 6 plants could provide a nice continuous harvest for such an arrangement. Which patient owns which plant?

 

Further, just looking at common sense and common law, the person that purchases an item typically owns that item, until the give it away.

 

Now some confusion may come from the way the MDCH has worded section C on the application, but it in no way changes what the law says.

 

Exactly, well said.

 

Sub4me, Im glad you responded like this, Im looking to be a c.g, Im a patient and so is my significant other, we have rites to posses our plants, no c.g's at this time, I will have one and so will she when we become accomplished with our own meds and at least 2 patients a peice.

 

truth is i started out with a c.g, I gave a deposit to them (donation)when i signed c.g on. (my bad 150 dontion) supposedly to be gotten back when my plants are ready, they wanted 250 oz, and 25 a month for electric, and c.g did not seem to have much experience in growing. or making oil, hash, or anything! the day i signed c.g on. I was invited to c.gs home, I seen the plants he had going for his 1 legal patient ( a few indoors in dirt, and not to healthy looking) because I have been growing all of my life, I thought this to be ideal, c.g said I could help get things going, and show what i know to help the process along, well Long story short, I never seen any of my so called plants, or got any mm that was grown by that c.g, Oh yea I got meds a few times from c.g, at some ones house he sent me to alone,(someone i didnt know but do now) and another time i was instructed to go get my meds from c.gs house, that was hidden out side (in a top secret golf bag lol) again this was not from c.g got it from a dispense or some where,(not discussed where it came from,other than a source) there was an oz in a jelly jar, It was nice mm, and I figured it cost me 250 for the z like we prearranged when signing on. after i had it a day, c.g called and asked how much of it i wanted to keep, well I was happy with the quality and price, since i already gave my 150 dep and only owed 100 for it,(in my mind at least!?!) I said all of it, I was than asked if i could please give up a 1/4 of it for another of his patients (uh oh red flag) and deliver it to said patient! I reluctantly did ( i live in small town america and new some of this persons friends and knew it would be safe hopefuly) so I figure now deduct 67.50 from the hundy I owe and Im now paying 32.50 plus my 150 dep for the 3/4 of z!

(you follow me?) we are all good! c.g calls me and askes when am i going to pay for my meds? I say anytime where are you. than c.g tells me I owe something like 600 plus for the oz! You can figure the rest of the story!

 

Peace

FTW

Jim

 

(i did not want a g.r in my house cause of kids and all others getting popped at that time, reason I signd c.g in 1st place)

 

 

Man phaq, that sucks. I've heard similar stories of pats shelling out hundreds or thousands of dollars to get a grow up and going and never seeing a thing from their "caregiver" (more like careSTEALER). It's people like that who just give the whole thing a bad name.

 

Any CG who is asking for $$ up front to get an op going are definitely someone to be suspect of. Unfortunately some will learn this the hard way.

[phaquetoo]

Exactly, well said.

 

 

 

 

Man phaq, that sucks. I've heard similar stories of pats shelling out hundreds or thousands of dollars to get a grow up and going and never seeing a thing from their "caregiver" (more like careSTEALER). It's people like that who just give the whole thing a bad name.

 

Any CG who is asking for $$ up front to get an op going are definitely someone to be suspect of. Unfortunately some will learn this the hard way.

 

Im glad I got mine back, In fact I made 37 bucks interest eh?

LOL

It worked out, just kinda slowed my grow down by 5 months waiting for change of c.g and me posses, plastic! Im sure you already heard of my other legal issues with paper app!

 

Im most def old enough to no better! but like said I realy didnt want to have a g.r at home just than, and this person was from the hippie generation and got me to put an "S" on my forhead for a few months! lol

 

Peace OCC

FTW

Jim