Waterford Pot Providers Were Entrapped By Police-Produced Fake Cards

[freakydawg420]

Again, undercover is one thing. This is totally different. We all know without forging those cards, they never would of had access to the meds. PERIOD

 

I also have to question the "they are allowed" because so and so said so.

 

I specifically posted the laws that prove what they did is ILLEGAL.

 

Where is a copy of the law that says as "undercover" they are ALLOWED by LAW to do these things?

 

Remember, if there is a law against something it is illegal. Unless another law is made that allows it to be legal "in some instances". Our law is one of them. MJ is illegal in Michigan EXCEPT when used in accordance with the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act. MMMA is our exception.

 

Can anyone point me to the law that is their exception to the forgery law?

 

 

I'll add too, so far I had no problem finding the law against forging documents. I have yet to find one on the books supporting it for undercover. If anyone finds it, please post the link.

[+RevThad]

I'll add too, so far I had no problem finding the law against forging documents. I have yet to find one on the books supporting it for undercover. If anyone finds it, please post the link.

There are different court rulings that allow for undercover police to engage in illegal activities as part of the investigaion, as long as the courts do not find the behavior to be too egregious (murder and rape would be a couple that cross the line). To get an idea, it would be the same immunity provided to a cop doing a weapons deal or cocaine sell..

 

However, the premise is still the same.

 

If the transactions are legal to card holders, then the entrapment issue is moot; all charges should be dropped.

 

If the transactions that were occurring were not legal, then there would be no reason to forge identification to make a purchase, they could have just arrested and charged for the crimes witnessed.

 

The fact that they forged the documents to be able to purchase, suggests that they know it is legal to provide to a registered patient, and just want to force the issues and gather some "tough on crime" headlines to pad their resumes with, regardless of the costs to taxpayers and the victims of their ambitions.

 

Their own actions suggest a dichotomy that cannot stand. How can it be legal for a patient to purchase or acquire mmj, yet be illegal for a person to sell or transfer to the patient?

[Highlander]

If the transactions that were occurring were not legal, then there would be no reason to forge identification to make a purchase, they could have just arrested and charged for the crimes witnessed.

 

The other possability is that LEO belives that the transaction were illegal but didn't make arrests on the spot so they could tap the network deeper and make a bigger sweep of arrests and raids.

[freakydawg420]

There are different court rulings that allow for undercover police to engage in illegal activities as part of the investigaion, as long as the courts do not find the behavior to be too egregious (murder and rape would be a couple that cross the line). To get an idea, it would be the same immunity provided to a cop doing a weapons deal or cocaine sell..

 

However, the premise is still the same.

 

If the transactions are legal to card holders, then the entrapment issue is moot; all charges should be dropped.

 

If the transactions that were occurring were not legal, then there would be no reason to forge identification to make a purchase, they could have just arrested and charged for the crimes witnessed.

 

The fact that they forged the documents to be able to purchase, suggests that they know it is legal to provide to a registered patient, and just want to force the issues and gather some "tough on crime" headlines to pad their resumes with, regardless of the costs to taxpayers and the victims of their ambitions.

 

Their own actions suggest a dichotomy that cannot stand. How can it be legal for a patient to purchase or acquire mmj, yet be illegal for a person to sell or transfer to the patient?

 

 

Well until I see it in writing, I just can not believe it is officially LEGAL (and posted) that undercovers can comit FELONIES in order to try and bust someone for a minor offence (if any).

Even if the actions they were trying to stop were illegal, they would only be 2 year charges. They committed 10year felonies in order to stop a 2 year minor offence? (if any offence was being made at all)

I want to be shown this rediculus law that allows them to do this. If they can not show it to us, then how is it legal?

 

Either way....

1) they were entrapped IF they were doing something wrong. (charges get dropped)

2) if they were doing nothing wrong, then the LEO's committed a felony to stop NO CRIME. (even worse)

 

Oh, and Rev... "How can it be legal for a patient to purchase or acquire mmj, yet be illegal for a person to sell or transfer to the patient?"

 

We both know this is not possible. Thats why the law specifically says:

 

"(i) A person shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, solely for being in the presence or vicinity of the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act, or for assisting a registered qualifying patient with using or administering marihuana."

 

I am "a person". Are you not "a person"?

[+RevThad]

Hey Freaky, yeah I had a hard time believing it either. The term for it is qualified immunity.

[+RevThad]

The other possability is that LEO belives that the transaction were illegal but didn't make arrests on the spot so they could tap the network deeper and make a bigger sweep of arrests and raids.

The point is, there is nobody arguing that these establishments weren't selling to carded patients and caregivers, that was the purpose of the establishments. Even the owners and operators would concede to that point. Therefore, the evidence of the sales isn't even in question by either side, if law enforcement believed them to be illegal, they could get their warrants and conduct the raids on facts.... In other words why would there be a need for deceit to gather evidence of something that is openly admitted? IF the behavior is illegal, any judge in the land would grant a warrant for the search and seizure of evidence and property on the establishments, based solely on the public knowledge of the activities...

 

If not for the forged documents, the transactions to these officers would never occur, and there would be no violation of the MMMA.

 

It will make for some interesting rulings all the way up the judicial pipeline..

[Nameless_Hero]

It really does seem as though the trinity crusade is getting weaker. Even in that video of them the other week seemed like they really were not confident in their resolve to argue this issue. Anyways this fake card thing is just some of the icing on the cake, but I had some questions hopefully someone can shed some light on because the crusaders seems to contradict themselves a lot. What's that saying? oh yeah... the more you lie, the more you have to remember.

 

Question 1

 

The COA Judge O Conell obviously has his interpretations of the law. From what I understand he took some time to dissect it and analyze every aspect. So from judges like him, to sheriff's like Bouchard and all of the other locally elected officials, why weren't any of these opinions/interpretations brought to light months and months ago? Can the fact that there are obviously hidden agendas (ie elections, campaigns, other private interests) be used against someone for a defense?

 

Question 2

 

The Oakland County Sheriff's Department stated that they "warned" the dispensary operations shortly before the raids took place. But then Brooks Patterson comes out with an proposal basically TELLING towns what their options are but ultimately says it's up to them. Bouchard and Cooper have also stated that each locality has to make a decision. So didn't the Ferndale Police tour the facility and more or less gave the OK for it to be there? Then didn't the Sheriff's department act without the Ferndale PD's involvement? I think that's a huge contradiction by these people and blatantly displays how their decision should be golden whenever it suits them best.

 

Question 3

 

Looking back at the AG debate between Schuette and Leyton I really was turned off by Schuette's condescending attitude. He acted like he had this election in the bag and would constantly address Leyton with very unprofessional comments like "Answer the questions, counsel!" Completely disregarding the fact that there is a mediator to insist on the person to answer any questions. I dont really need an answer to this but just wanted your opinions. Thanks

[MrKind]

Doesn't the mere existence of forged cards undermine the whole system?

If you can not trust the card you are looking at, and holding, we are not talking xeroxed copies of paperwork, but actual cards that most up us wait 4 months for.

I want to know if the Forged card the officers used had a hologram on it, if it did, that card can only be made by the mmj program printer.if it doesn't shouldn't the mmj program be reissuing anti counterfeit cards? with the hologram. And maybe a nice lil handout saying that these are the real deal.

 

When you cannot trust the validity of a state issued identification, Why am I paying money to have it?

So I can be in a database for them to come after later on?

[+RevThad]

Doesn't the mere existence of forged cards undermine the whole system?

If you can not trust the card you are looking at, and holding, we are not talking xeroxed copies of paperwork, but actual cards that most up us wait 4 months for.

I want to know if the Forged card the officers used had a hologram on it, if it did, that card can only be made by the mmj program printer.if it doesn't shouldn't the mmj program be reissuing anti counterfeit cards? with the hologram. And maybe a nice lil handout saying that these are the real deal.

 

When you cannot trust the validity of a state issued identification, Why am I paying money to have it?

So I can be in a database for them to come after later on?

You hit on the purpose of those forged cards, to bring confusion and to undermine the supply system. If patients and caregivers cannot be sure that a card is valid, then people are less likely to help a person presenting the card and asking for help.

 

It also allows the folks that created the forgeries to suggest that it is so easy to forge these cards, that they cannot take them at face value and thus anybody presenting a card is subject to arrest... Such an argument is also a way to get the public to beg for changes to the registry system, where various changes can be tailored by the likes of the Schuette, Bouchard, and Cooper types.

 

It is all about psy-ops and war. Text book case of it, cause division in the ranks of the opponent, use propaganda to confuse and convert the populace, use the converted populace to wear down the opponent through attrition, and finally conquer the opponent with overwhelming force.

[bobandtorey]

i think they the PA is using some of the things from are case because the PA told the judge in the court room that are cards were fake and then the judge said how do we know that they are fake this is the first one i have seen

[+Silverblue]

COPS ARE ALLOWED TO GO UNDERCOVER ALL THE TIME AND DWELL IN THAT GRAY AREA LEGALLY!

they can fornicate and do drugs drive at reckless speeds lie cheat and steal-even physically harm someone in their investigation!

not saying it is right, just saying that its S.O.P. for the LEO

got to be a crook to catch a crook-its spy vs spy stuff carried over from CIA spook shnit into regular barney Fife LEO operations-hence swat gear and intelligence gathering electronic warfare and high powered weapons.

what i am getting at is that the people of the USA are getting fed up with the erosion of rights and liberties as well as big brother type activity-the patriot act needs to be abolished as well as many other policies-if they want to play those games on other countries fine-their will be Karma

but to play those games on its own citizens is asking the populace to RISE AGAINST(favorite band) the NWO-the law is about to change in CALI-the drug war is escalating-thousands are behind bars that shouldnt really be there-THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE AFRAID OF ITS CITIZENS NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND! they work for us we pay their salaries-they are public servants-the public wants MMMC and to be left alone!

They are afraid of us, that's why they're doing all this.

 

Sb

[+Silverblue]

some one posted something the otherday and i cant find it but it goes like this.

operation 'MK ULTRA' led the spooks to believe that the most dangerous drugs to our civilization were PSYCHEDELICS and Marijuana -using said substances lead to unconventional thinking because the veil...the illusion of a civilized society is rent asunder! that makes us and others a danger to the foundations of the modern world-----

"some say the camps are coming... not far away -i hope never" mutterings of pre nazi war germany and its jewish-black-drug users-retarded-sick and mentally ill citizens

I hope I'm dead before that happens.

Sb

[Rashore]

Maybe some good will come of this awful situation. Maybe MM cards will become better proofed against forgery and ill use by the LEO. Maybe some of the general public will rally more for MM rights, if only to help protect themselves against being the next to be violated.

[bobandtorey]

if any body wants to come and support the people and go to court their day is tomorrow at 8:30

[Big J]

http://www.freep.com...ate=fullarticle

"The cases could take years to be settled by the state's highest courts, or be resolved far more quickly by a Republican landslide in November if Lansing lawmakers subsequently repealed the Michigan Medical Marijuana Act, which was passed in 2008."

 

Why are the "Republicans" so predjudiced and inconsiderate of a patients needs?

 

The answer is money!

 

Assault Weapons and Handguns = O.K., but tax it

Wars & Promoting Wars = O.K. but let the people who can't find a job fight

Alcohol = O.K., but tax the poor

Cigarettes = O.K., but tax the poor

Imigration = O.K., but the they go back when the seasons over

Healthcare = O.K., but put the burden on the sick and dying working classes

 

Harmless Non-Addicting Drugs with Medical Benefits = Bad for the "New Republic", throw "them" all in jail

 

This isn't a war on drugs, it's a war on "drug users", "them", "the working classes" and "the poor"

It is not all republicans I know of a few that are mmj friendly governor Snyder has told normal he is not opposed to it either. The problem comes from the rightwing religious nazi's that feel the are gods weapon! Being a former Christian bible thumper I can speak from experience. Too many Christians think they need to do what god has lead them to do the only problem is they are steering the bus not god. That is why I am the way I am now I see what religion does to people. God isn't the problem the idiots that think they know what he wants are!

[jester]

ok, I might be foolish but... Isn't making fake patient ID's to get MM the same sort of no no as making a fake state ID to get alcohol while underage? Or writing up fake prescriptions using real doctors pads and signatures to get drugs illegally from the pharmacy?

To me this article is entrapment.. the LEO made fake ID's to get a person to supply them when that person would never have done so without those fake ID's. They did conduct themselves in a manner that induced an otherwise law abiding citizen to do something illegal. The owner wouldn't have sold to someone without a card.

And er, wouldn't creating the ID's themselves on the copshop computer also count as falsifying state documents since real patients (to my understanding) are handled through the state level? Kind of the same if they made a fake state ID for an officer under 21? I'm pretty sure that's a no no. At least if that ID is used to get the officer into a bar on the hopes of arresting for underage drinking.

 

The paper shield that is the protection to caregivers and patients should not be allowed to be the paper ram that the LEO uses to batter down law abiding doors.

 

Maybe an answer would be to make patient cards as tec savvy as some regular state ID's.

Some cards have holographic insignia embedded into the plastic seething to prove it was issued by the office it was supposed to. Some have a bar code or magnetic strip on them.

If people are expected to carry the card around with them, and that card is the only "proof" one has to provide to a caregiver or dispensary owner, or to try to stave off the LEO, (sort of the point of carrying a card and not a portfolio) then it should be durable and not easily or legally forged. It should be considered entrapment if the LEO makes fake ones to get normally legally responsible people to do something illegal unbeknownst to them.

 

Sorry for the book.. this topic blew me away..

its not illegal if the Brave American Heroes do it. we are living in an actual Police State people. the only satisfaction i get out of it is that the children of the Fascist element will have to live under it too and there's nothing the Brave American Heroes can do about that!

[jester]

I hope I'm dead before that happens.

Sb

yeah. me too sb. its coming and the sheeple are too blind to see it. look at weimar germany in the thirties. the gestapo, ss and einsatzgruppen recruited heavily from the ranks of what is laughingly referred to as law enforcment. does anyone think american "peace officers" are any different than anywhere else. they know who signs their paychecks. THEY WILL DO THE BIDDING OF THEIR MASTERS, period!! get used to it.

and to those here that refer to leo as barney fife...i take strong exception to that. barney was a nice guy and didn't regard the citizens of mayberry as enemies. its an insult to him to compare him to BAH! )

 

i'll get down off my soapbox now.

[bobandtorey]

support they need i hope we fill the court room today at 8;30 AM

 

 

[mizerman]

Anybody who has any awareness of L. Brooks Patterson's agenda and past would have seen this coming from the time Proposal 1 was passed. A patient man waitng for the right opportunity offered by those pushing the envelope, and he was granted that wish he made on November 4, 2008. He's a political thug but he's not stupid. Now we get our answers whether we like them or not.

 

We should have been driving the bus he has been granted the keys to now!

That alcoholic clown needs to be sent out to the pasture...

 

 

Mizerman

[mizerman]

support they need i hope we fill the court room today at 8;30 AM

Sorry I simply am too sick to leave the house and I don't want to infect any of my friends with what I have.

 

The only people I'd like to infect with this crap are:

 

L. "Foster" Brooks Patterson

Beth "I'm a biotch and I know it" Hand

Jessica "I used to be a civil rights lawyer in another life before I became Patterson's slave" Cooper

Sheriff Mike "If my lips are moving, I am lying" Bouchard

 

I got up at 5am hoping that would give me time to feel well enough to leave the house at 7:45 but simply could not.

 

I think 'ol Mizerman is headed for the hospital...

[dutch&Dutchess]

the fact that there was the corrupt piggies picture on the card would have been a HUGE tip off to me. I would have called MDCH before I had anything to do with pathetic little creep. You should have seen him in Court. He was LAUGHABLE, PATHETIC and caught in so many lies. He was lost against 9 attorneys who grilled him like pork butt he is. He soon realized that his bosses were using him like a 2 dollar hooker at frat house. Any good sketch artists out there? That Sheriff narc needs his face posted. He best not show his pathetic corrupt butt anywhere in this county.

[pic book]

Everyone spend a stamp or a phone call. Write a letter to the Michigan Department of Community Health asking that they begin issuing a holographic card as tech savvy as the Michigan Driver's License. "In return for the $100 fee I give you, I demand that you make the card you issue to me impossible to forge." Send it to P. O. Box 30083, Lansing, MI 48909, or call them at 517-373-0395. Do it, do it now!!!

[bobandtorey]

Well am back now from the court it was a long day it was nice to see skip and the better half their and peanut butter and other then that the AM was about 10 people their the afternoon about 15 the alligator man testified against ever body

Yep and their were another that was busted that did the same to save their a*s Alligator man said he just used MMJ to get high and to make $$$ and testified that he even knew Doctors that you don't even have to be sick even his mom he said has a card and she ant sick

[Southern Cross]

Well am back now from the court it was a long day it was nice to see skip and the better half their and peanut butter and other then that the AM was about 10 people their the afternoon about 15 the alligator man testified against ever body

Yep and their were another that was busted that did the same to save their a*s Alligator man said he just used MMJ to get high and to make $$$ and testified that he even knew Doctors that you don't even have to be sick even his mom he said has a card and she ant sick

Thanks for the report Bob. From what I remember of the news reports I thought the Alligator Man was the only one who was breaking the law. (besides the fake ID pigtients) Wasn't he the one that sold drugs to the narcs? If I remember right he sold them medical mj inside the club then he sold them recreational cannabis outside and at his house plus he sold them drugs? maybe I have it mixed up, there are so many cases going right now.

[mizerman]

Well am back now from the court it was a long day it was nice to see skip and the better half their and peanut butter and other then that the AM was about 10 people their the afternoon about 15 the alligator man testified against ever body

Yep and their were another that was busted that did the same to save their a*s Alligator man said he just used MMJ to get high and to make $$$ and testified that he even knew Doctors that you don't even have to be sick even his mom he said has a card and she ant sick

Was great to see you there as well. Sorry we got there late - I just haven't been feeling well this whole week.

 

I'm still baffled about that last young black man that was on the stand that took a deal and in my opinion - should not have.

 

He must have had a terrible attorney - or, there's something more to his story? I guess we'll know more on December 1st.

 

Hey, my better half wants me to ask you what was the name of the movie you told her to watch.

 

I thought all of the defense attorneys did a great job. Was grrrrrrrrrrrrrreat to get to see who the three undercover officers were.

 

Hey moderators:

 

NOTE:

 

If I get someone to forward me the pictures that were taken in the courtroom today - I have seen them - can I post their photo's in a new forum topic?

 

I think people need to know who these three people are because Bob told me that earlier today it was said that there were 17 people out there (undercover officers with fake cards).

 

At least people would know who these three are.

 

Let me know,

 

 

Mizerman