Caregivers And Profit

[Elwood P. Dowd]

What is the ethical dilemma in a caregiver making a profit for providing a service?

 

Why is it acceptable for EVERY other facet of the medical supply/support industry (thats what it is) to make a living from their service, yet somehow providing professional horticultural services for a patient does not apply?

 

Does anyone here think that, say a home care nurse should not be able to make a living simply because of the level of need of his or her patients?

 

Even Hospice nurses and people giving chemo to kids with cancer make a living wage. Why don't we look down on them the way we look down on profitable caregivers here? Do you disdain gardeners or pharmacists as much as caregivers for seeking some amount of personal gain?

 

from what I can gather growing MM for 5 patients is pretty much a full time pursuit.

 

and it is my opinion (not a lawyer) that the law absolutely leaves room for making a profit. If one puts in 40 hours a week tending patients crops, their "costs" go way beyond the physical assets involved. A persons time has value, and it costs a person that value to be with the plants instead of at their job. "opportunity costs."

 

(this is a repost of my response in another thread but I felt it merited its own heading. Let the chaos begin )

[nthlghts]

All non profit organizations pay employees and managers, as well as incur costs in the normal course of doing business. This is no different, No profit does not include donating your time. I would say all costs and labor involved should be calculated and broke down so that it is recovered. I mean 12 plant setup can cost 3000.00, then time, gas, electricity, building that you use should be covered because you cant use it for anything else. Profit implies positive cash flow after expenses. So therefore you can in fact make a living without making profit. I would still not use it as a primary source of income though, mainly because you cannot file a proper tax return.

[CedarSpringsCG]

I don't think anyone should be getting rich, but making money off of it is acceptable. And yes, I believe the law says you can be compensated for costs, and labor is a cost. It is very clear in saying caregiving is a service, you are not supplying marijuana, but a service of growing it.

 

At the same time you have to look at your PT's and what they can provide. It is compassion and caregiving, it does not say philanthropy and charity.

 

Cedar

[jessiejamez]

If your answer is "whatever the market will bear", then you my friend are a drug dealer not a caregiver.

[+420Atheist]

There is a fine line between making a fair profit and gouging. I think most of us here see it as war profiteering like when IBM was working with the Third Reich. I don't see caregivers as the big problem. I think dispensaries are the ones who need to be reeled in. I will change my mind if caregivers ever get together in an OPEC type group to set prices. Then they will come under my fire but I think most are in it for good reasons. They want to help people and make a little something for their efforts. I am good with that.

[Inepsa]

Caregivers need to be compensated. They need to be paid for the time they put into each one of their patients plants, and all the costs involved with those plants.

 

If you have overages after your patients are taken care of, you should not be selling it to make a quick profit. Once your expenses are covered, you shouldn't be making any more money.

Expenses could include: grow room costs (1 time), electricty, heating fuel, plant genetics, nutrients, delivery expenses, time spent .. .. ..

 

basically just as the law states it under rule 333.115 (2) A registered primary caregiver may receive compensation for costs associated with assisting a registered qualifying patient in the medical use of marihuana. Any such compensation shall not constitute the sale of a controlled substance.

 

 

The important thing here is that caregivers are supposed to help patients and always follow the law exactly as it says it.

[Ronulan]

What is the ethical dilemma in a caregiver making a profit for providing a service?

 

Why is it acceptable for EVERY other facet of the medical supply/support industry (thats what it is) to make a living from their service, yet somehow providing professional horticultural services for a patient does not apply?

 

Does anyone here think that, say a home care nurse should not be able to make a living simply because of the level of need of his or her patients?

 

Even Hospice nurses and people giving chemo to kids with cancer make a living wage. Why don't we look down on them the way we look down on profitable caregivers here? Do you disdain gardeners or pharmacists as much as caregivers for seeking some amount of personal gain?

 

from what I can gather growing MM for 5 patients is pretty much a full time pursuit.

 

and it is my opinion (not a lawyer) that the law absolutely leaves room for making a profit. If one puts in 40 hours a week tending patients crops, their "costs" go way beyond the physical assets involved. A persons time has value, and it costs a person that value to be with the plants instead of at their job. "opportunity costs."

 

(this is a repost of my response in another thread but I felt it merited its own heading. Let the chaos begin )

[bob boberson]

Somebody's going to make a profit (see link below).

Probably just end up cutting out the little guy like usual.

Medical Marijuana as an investment.

[smokeythebear]

Just like my dad use to say about beer.

 

If ya cant afford it ya shouldn't be doing it.

 

It is what it is, go anywhere else of the 15 states and it is the same thing.

 

people who dont like it need to buy some lights and give it a go them selfs, bet they wont be so cheap headed when there the one paying the bills and buying the dirt and spending there time taking care of everything.

 

anything that is for sale is like that. ya can go to walmart and pay $.50 less then the mom and pop store. If ya dont like the price go to the next store.

[LansingAreaCaregiver]

Sorry folks, but if you want real professional growers devoting all of their time, energy and focus to caring for your plants , then you have to be willing to pay that. I got into caregiving for several reasons.

• Because the act of growing is incredible in and of itself
• Because there are many people who need this medicine, and the relief I see it providing is a powerful experience
• It is a budding industry (pun intended) in which I have an opportunity to earn a good wage to support my family.

Now, am I saying that the only reason I grow is to make money? No, but I'm not a one dimensional person. I'm not going to put my family in the poorhouse, or spend all my time away from them working a full time job to support them and then have to spend all my personal time away from them to tend to my patients' garden.

 

Now, I'm a good caregiver. I truly care about my patients and am passionate about providing them with the best medicine. My patients are so appreciative of the services I provide them. I consider myself an asset to this community.

 

But if I had to chose between my family and caregiving, you know I would chose my family, and the community would be short a good caregiver.

 

Now I'm not trying to brag, because there are countless other caregivers out there just like me. The ability to support their families by providing this service is what affords us the opportunity to devote ourselves to our patients' medicines. Are there some that are just trying to make a quick buck? Yup. Just like there are used car salesman just out looking to make a quick buck and there are those that are truly interested in serving their customers' needs.

[RealFast59Ford]

Michigan unemployment rate hovers around 11%

 

Have you heard of the term Cash Crop? CNN, CBS, PBS, NBC, ABC, MSNBC, FOX, BBC and others have been using it a lot lately. Pay attention.

 

But if you're too poor to pay attention, stay unemployed. There are a lot of out of work people coming to our state because of the legal economic opportunities afforded to us by Michigan Medical Marihuana Act.

 

Who looks a gift horse in the mouth? It's obvious who around these parts.

 

We're just animals trying to eat after all. Providing for others is a responsibility also.

 

This plant is not growing on this big rock hurling through the vacuum for pretentious animals to argue about whether profit should or should not be associated with all the wonders this living breathing plant shares with us. It is what it is, and things are how they are.

 

Humans used to trade other humans for sugar. Now sugar is a drug that has proven it's profit potential. Sugar in medicine goes way back, but I am more of a recreational user of the drug. Where's your argument over my Starbursts and the company that profits?

 

Think I'll stay around and see how many other ways the members on this site can continue to agitate my nerves in my back. If I keep laughing out loud at some of you, and do this everyday, my health is in jeopardy. Laughter is not always the best medicine.

 

HA

 

Hi everyone. (=

[wolfgama]

<<<<< Gama's other half!! We both still work full time being a cargiver for us all about "COMPASSION"....Been over two yrs. now and still have not covered the cost of S/U..However we did not take this on to live off!! Our Patient's are Just getting by Due: to their Health Issues!! We want No Bad!! "KARMA".....Just Saying!!

[CedarSpringsCG]

If your answer is "whatever the market will bear", then you my friend are a drug dealer not a caregiver.

I respectfully disagree. Growing year round in a perpetual grow is a commitment. I give up a lot to do this. I can't take a vacation without weeks of planning, I give up weekends, nights, time with loved ones. Growing good meds costs money, and not everyone can do it. Look at Craigslist, why are so many people selling grow equipment? Some are upgrading, lots tried and failed. Shouldn't I get something out of it for everything I am giving up?

 

Now, what will the market bear? It depends on the market you are talking about. The market of people on unemployment, market of people on disability, market of people too sick to have a job. That market, the market I am in, can bear what I charge and I have no guilt about it at all.

 

I personally did not like the "yes but not too much" answer because who says what is too much. You grow great meds, and someone who is from CA might say $75/gr is too much, but $40 is great. So who decides what is too much? Some college kid who has never left MI might say $5/gr is too much, no matter the quality. Who decides what is too much?

 

Cedar

[LongHairBri]

If your to poor to pay attn! Bawahahahaha

 

 

 

Can you say High Jack?

 

Mimom...............is rolling on the ground laughing her phaqing arse off!

wow, that was painful!! too early for Donnie Osmond, haven't even had my coffee yet

[jessiejamez]

I respectfully disagree. Growing year round in a perpetual grow is a commitment. I give up a lot to do this. I can't take a vacation without weeks of planning, I give up weekends, nights, time with loved ones. Growing good meds costs money, and not everyone can do it. Look at Craigslist, why are so many people selling grow equipment? Some are upgrading, lots tried and failed. Shouldn't I get something out of it for everything I am giving up?

 

Now, what will the market bear? It depends on the market you are talking about. The market of people on unemployment, market of people on disability, market of people too sick to have a job. That market, the market I am in, can bear what I charge and I have no guilt about it at all.

 

I personally did not like the "yes but not too much" answer because who says what is too much. You grow great meds, and someone who is from CA might say $75/gr is too much, but $40 is great. So who decides what is too much? Some college kid who has never left MI might say $5/gr is too much, no matter the quality. Who decides what is too much?

 

Cedar

 

All your points are well taken. Now if we are talking about your patients. Let's not forget, you wouldn't have the right to grow those plants w/o them. What ever is left over after that. Eat it burn it sell it (yes, for what ever your particular market will bear).

 

How about this on the "yes but not too much". I think caregivers should make some money for their time. Growing quality meds is a very expensive and time consuming endeavor. The rewards are great. Personally I think the risk is greater. Should you be paid for your risk as well as your reward? idk......

 

If you grow GREAT meds the open market will pay you highly for them. If that's what we are talking about here. Your patients, depending on their needs and their financial situation and your ability and level of compassion for them. Every situation is different. The market of people on unemployment, market of people on disability, market of people too sick to have a job. That's the market you're supposed to be in. But who say's it's wrong to help out people can and will pay.

 

As far as the $75 and $40 g's in cali is that beverly hills? My buddy in san diego says it's ok I don't want to quote prices (or name, names or ne ting). Then again he is an old hippie from the bay area, they prob pay a little less.

 

Also as far as the "yes but not too much". My daddy had an expression "pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered".

 

Ya'll, caregivers i mean, are living in the wild west. I'll be real clear, I don't know, nor do I care to know your struggles. The only thing flowering in my home is an iris, and that only happens once every two years.

 

There are a lot of patients and cg's that give the law and movement an ugly face. Sorry if that offends anyone. Yes, profit is a dirty word as far as the law goes imo...

 

Now, ya'll dispensary owners, I think the writing on the wall is clear.

 

If it was me I'd charge what I needed to in order to break even, if there was anything left I'd Burn it or eat it or give it away.

 

Now if you consider being a caregiver your job, and you are looking to make a hourly wage and have a thriving enterprise. Good luck with that, let me know how that turns out.

[CedarSpringsCG]

I do keep a job outside of being a CG, 2 of them.

 

Do I think a CG should be making 100k a year off of growing? No. but do I think with 5 pt's they should be able to make around $30k over direct costs? Yes I do. And that can easily be done with 5 pt's, around 4 oz a month each. Which is a oz every week or 10 days which I think is fairly normal. If you were caring for 50 plants and growing great meds, it would take you probably 50+ hours per week, every week, no vacations, no time off, no sick time, no benefits. Maybe more time than that.

 

I put in about 25+ hours a week on 20 plants. All of these people who have never grown great meds before seem to think you stick it in a pot and come back in 8-10 weeks to harvest, and it is nothing like that.

 

My township is trying to force all CG activity to be a business, I.E. you can't grow at home, you have to have a staffed business, licensed, pay taxes, commercial building, the whole 9 yards. I am fighting it as much as I can because I don't want it to be a business for me. It is a hobby. Just like guys who spend their weekends making bird houses and selling them at craft fairs. My hobby just has a lot greater risk.

 

On the paying $75/gr, that is a name brand "Snoop Dog" strain that I was commenting on. It is possible to find in CA in the higher end neighborhoods, however it was an extreme I was using for example.

 

And as far as dispensaries, they have their place. Many people disagree, but they can be useful in determing what is the best strain for a particular person. I just wouldn't use one on a regular basis.

[Topshelf]

Where us the non qualifying "yes" option? Haha.

 

I make money as a cg. Anyone with anything to say should be my patient, or my overage client, otherwise their opinions about me are 100% irrelevant.

 

My patients love me, my overage clients love me, I love myself, and what I do. The rest is .....whatever it is. I feel bad for anyone that doesnt like me for my position in this whole thing.

 

It's short sighted and narrow minded.

 

Balance is the real answer.

 

To everything.

[Topshelf]

P.S. I didn't vote.

[CedarSpringsCG]

Where us the non qualifying "yes" option? Haha.

 

I make money as a cg. Anyone with anything to say should be my patient, or my overage client, otherwise their opinions about me are 100% irrelevant.

...

 

Very to the point and the exact same I feel TopShelf... I wish I had answered that way to begin with.

[Ms Chocolate]

Caregivers should be compensated for their cost. And as it has been stated, time & labor are cost. Is the cost the federal base minimum $7.50 per hour?

 

What if the caregiver is growing more than the patient will use? If the plan is to transfer the unused to a dispensary or another patient, then the funds received from those transfers should be counted as payment of cost, and a reduction towards what the patient is charged. I have no doubt that after such transfer’, not only will the caregiver receive all cost, but there would be something for the patient.

 

Other than selling to recoup cost, why would a caregiver grow more product than is needed by the patient? If the patient only needs what comes from 3 plants, only 3 plants need be grown. My guess is to recoup cost.

[Elwood P. Dowd]

Caregivers should be compensated for their cost. And as it has been stated, time & labor are cost. Is the cost the federal base minimum $7.50 per hour? .

 

The value of a persons time would be totally case by case. Whatever the Caregiver is willing to work for.

 

If I were taking on all that risk I'd expect to earn more than you would make flipping burgers.

 

I also don't agree that selling overages (which I consider to be illegal) should count as compensation.

 

I'm talking about direct compensation for the service of growing a steady supply of MM to a particular patient. Compensation coming exclusively from the patient. A caregiver has no useful, legal outlet for the "right to grow those plants" beyond supplying that patient. Even providing overages to the Cg isn't legal IMO unless the Cg is also a registered patient. So unless you are a patient yourself or are breaking the law there is no legitimate gain from the right to grow, beyond what comes from your Pt.

 

That said, I'm not a cold hearted prick and I'd have problems with someone taking advantage of a sick patient solely for personal gain. But as has been stated, the line between fair compensation and gouging is indefinable and will be different in each situation.

 

There is certainly no shortage of places to get MM, both legal and illegal and it's not like Cg's are forcing patients to use them, so if a patient is willing to pay the price I think thats between the Cg and the Pt. If a patient can get free meds somewhere I think thats great too, but I see nothing wrong with a Cg getting fair compensation, or even making a living for the service they provide.

[_abbenormal]

hello all

 

well im just amazed at this forum... the lack of help for anyone who is sick... this is just so saddening for me to see... something that god gave us we are charging for... god sent his only son down to earth to be killed for us... god did not ask for money... he gave... god gave so much and asked for so little... so we could have a life and live in his graces... he has never ask us for money... he has asked us to help fellow man... he has ask us to help feed others and we would be rewarded 10 fold... but you want money to help a fellow human being... this is so sad and i do feel sorry for you who put money before a sick person and there needs... you want to be paid by someone who is sick and maybe can not work... you all just want to make money because you put forth sometime and labor... so much for give of the heart... hell with this i want the money there sick and dieing they dont need it... all i see here are people who are wanting to help sick people out of there money to support themselves... you ask why you can not make a profit from helping someone who is sick doctors do pharmacy's do why cannot i... doctor have no thought anymore there in it for money and dont think different same with drug stores there not here to help anyone but there bottom line... well it all about i me ive not one of you have said anything about giving to help anyone who needs it your more into wanting to be compensated for your time and your expenses... this is more important to you getting my cut for what i do... so much for volunteering good message to send people i should charge for this to its my time so i should be paid for volunteering... this so sad to see you all so upset in helping someone who is sick... you now keep asking for money from those who need to not worry about if there going to make it pass next week.. get all the money you can you will not take it with you and you know in your heart it will buy your way into the light there after... good luck feeling so much better over money you make off the sick and what life you show you kids... keep showing them how much more important money is for them and how its ok to charge money from sick people...i am so sorry you feel the need to not help anyone who is sick and you are more interested in your bottom line... the more we keep doing this the more we hurt all of us as human beings... i do hope those who feel the need to make a living off this do very well at it... one day you will need it to buy you hope some love and compassion for your self... or better yet pay people to come to your funeral... you do with what you want i dont care to keep fighting to show you where your wrong at go for the money it will help you for a short time... hope you do find what is right for you...

 

show what you love more the money is what your saying... ill take no one being sick for any amount of money you have because with all that money you will only buy so much the problem with this is you will have to buy... have a good full life...

 

 

for me and the ones who see it different keep moving forward and keep pushing we will over come... we will not have to buy our way thru life...

 

 

abbe

[MORE COWBELL]

I GET UP TO 4 ZIPS A MONTH FOR FREE IF I CHOOSE TO DO SO AND ITS AVAILABLE-THEN I REIMBURSE $5 a gm. for anymore than that-they are very happy with the overages-this is a patient movement not a growers movement-i have to help certain aspects of my plants-genetics etc etc

[big bud]

250 should be top grade a meds thats what the donations should be

[imiubu]

I asked this same question last year as I was sincerely wanting to know

what was thought to be fair compensation, as I was considering a cg...

I got flamed.

Now, there is about a bizillion threads on this same subject.

Why not just dig up an old thread on this instead of starting yet another?

Ya know, it's the sos...

 

Today has been a roller coaster ride for me and one of the things

that ate me up was to see an elderly woman across the street,

hunched over, leaning on a tree crying because she could not

walk the rest of the way to her house (less than one block) due to

the fact she couldn't afford her heart medicine and now was too

weakened. I put her in my car, took her home.

The rest is personal but... when I see bickering about

compassion vs profit, it makes me angry.

Compensation is between patient and caregiver, period.

 

Another thing... and flame me all you want,

I've grown a thicker skin on these boards (unfortunately)...

I have the capitol to start my own grow.

I have the inclination, a big green thumb.

I also have the space for it.

I could juggle enough time for such an endeavor.

BUT;

Where I live says I can't have this 'garden' as I live

too close to a school.

I also have a plan and do not have the inclination

to move right now so,

I've chosen a cg and our contract is between us.

Many are or could become that sick elderly woman

I encountered today, that can't afford her meds...

yeah, think about that.

 

Some cg's need to get off their high horse, imho.