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I Am A Patient And My Own Caregiver. Can I Provide To Other Patients?


robgolf247
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I am a Patient and my own Caregiver. Can I provide to other patients?

 

I know I am allowed to grow up to 12 plants at a time for myself since I am a patient and my own caregiver but does this mean I could have an additional 12 plants (24 plants total) growing at one time if I were to be providing to other patients?

 

Where is the best place to get the paperwork and read about rules of being a caregiver in this type of situation?

 

Thanks so much guys, I appreciate your time greatly!

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you can never sell to anyone...ever

 

you can however charge reasonable compensation to offset your expenses.

 

to those who have the proper credentials.

 

i for one keep very hyper accurate records to show if i am ever bothered by the system....i can prove beyond a reasonable doubt i am merely compensating myself for reasonable time, materials and effort.

 

peace

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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you can never sell to anyone...ever

 

you can however charge reasonable compensation to offset your expenses.

 

to those who have the proper credentials.

 

i for one keep very hyper accurate records to show if i am ever bothered by the system....i can prove beyond a reasonable doubt i am merely compensating myself for reasonable time, materials and effort.

 

peace

Actually, it says you can be compensated. The law doesn't mention reasonable. However you are correct that you are not selling ever, you are being compensated for services, not a product. Costs associated with assistance includes labor, so you don't just have to prove something came out of your pocket, you can charge time as well.

 

4.3.e A registered primary caregiver may receive compensation for costs associated with assisting a registered qualifying patient in the medical use of marihuana. Any such compensation shall not constitute the sale of controlled substances.

 

However, if you are unreasonable, everyone will hate you... Like if you charge $100 an hour for labor, you will be shunned. Some people still will hate you if you figure in $12/hr, but most of us think some labor is OK.

 

Anyway, you can grow 12 plants per patient, and charge for your services once they sign you up as a CG. You CANNOT just start growing extra plants because you want to use p2p transfers. You have to get signed up as a CG for someone else.

 

Read the laws and rules, and if you have specific questions ask. :) Good luck.

 

Cedar

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Oh and just to be clear, you are a PT with no caregiver. So no, you are not right now entitled to 24 plants. If you sign up other PT's, you can have 5 under you, you have a max of 72 plants (your 12, plus 12 per patient x5 patients). Remember a plant is anything alive with roots, so clones and mothers count as well.

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you can never sell to anyone...ever

 

you can however charge reasonable compensation to offset your expenses.

 

to those who have the proper credentials.

 

I for one keep very hyper accurate records to show if i am ever bothered by the system....i can prove beyond a reasonable doubt i am merely compensating myself for reasonable time, materials and effort.

 

peace

 

I'm in the process of becoming a caregiver. I really don't understand where everyone keeps saying you can be "compensated" by anyone with a card? Isn't it specific in stating that you can ONLY supply to YOUR patients that made you their caregiver? Also where does it state that non-connected caregivers/patients can do transactions between each other? I know it states a caregiver can get the meds by any means necessary, but I don't see where it says a caregiver can get rid of meds by any means BUT TO YOUR OWN PATIENTS.

 

It sounds kind of like the law the US has on absinthe... you can buy absinthe but you can't sell it. So you can have it imported legally.. just can't sell it.

 

So could someone please show me this fine print that allows a caregiver to transfer to other people other then their own patients?

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"So could someone please show me this fine print that allows a caregiver to transfer to other people other then their own patients?"

 

----------

 

Seeing that you're a newbie. The law is in its infancy still. You could read all the large print and fine print in an hour or so. Lots of vague and open for interpretation areas still. (being conservative in anything you do is best though) This said, if I as a CG/patient hand meds to another patient approved by the state of michigan to possess such meds there is no illegal activity taking place.

 

5 patients per CG is how michigan thus far has controlled growers from just growing massive amounts and getting out of control. If you choose to transfer some meds that you legally grew for yourself and your patients and have potential overages you can then transfer them to another approved michigan medical MJ patient. Just think about the scenerio too for a minute.....two approved michigan mj patients handing meds back and forth, neither is at anytime doing anything wrong and they are both legal to possess said meds. Does this make sense? Turn it into a for profit business and then you have problems!

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"So could someone please show me this fine print that allows a caregiver to transfer to other people other then their own patients?"

 

----------

 

Seeing that you're a newbie. The law is in its infancy still. You could read all the large print and fine print in an hour or so. Lots of vague and open for interpretation areas still. (being conservative in anything you do is best though) This said, if I as a CG/patient hand meds to another patient approved by the state of michigan to possess such meds there is no illegal activity taking place.

 

5 patients per CG is how michigan thus far has controlled growers from just growing massive amounts and getting out of control. If you choose to transfer some meds that you legally grew for yourself and your patients and have potential overages you can then transfer them to another approved michigan medical MJ patient. Just think about the scenerio too for a minute.....two approved michigan mj patients handing meds back and forth, neither is at anytime doing anything wrong and they are both legal to possess said meds. Does this make sense? Turn it into a for profit business and then you have problems!

 

This is all I keep hearing.. "open to interpretation"... but no one has supplied not one line from the law that even remotely suggests a caregiver can supply patients who are not registered under them. I see this line:

 

A primary caregiver who has been issued and possesses a registry

identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty

in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to

civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or

professional licensing board or bureau, for assisting a qualifying patient to

whom he or she is connected through the department's registration process

with the medical use of marihuana in accordance with the act, if the primary

caregiver possesses an amount of marihuana that does not exceed the following:

 

Can anyone post something that states otherwise?

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The way law enforcement has been reading the law it doesnt really matter how we read it.

 

:horse:

 

It appears they are reading it correctly unless someone posts any piece of the law that states you can transfer meds to someone other then your patient. How long will it take?

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The Act was written in a manner to able a patient/caregiver legal acess to medicine and immediatley . How else would someone obtain meds if they have a new caregiver or are new to growing ?

 

Look and read and you can simply understand that p2p is legal and very much needed to supply patients with medicine . Are they suppose to sit around and get sicker whil they await for possible meds in 3 months ?

 

 

Lol.. yet another response with absolutely nothing to back it up. If there is something to read in the law that states what you are saying.. POST IT PLEASE!!! I have been looking for it for months now, and no one seems to be able to come up with it. Yes it says it's legal to obtain meds... but it says it's only legal to DISTRIBUTE meds to YOUR PATIENTS! Yes.. doesn't make much sense to me either, BUT THAT IS THE WAY THE LAW IS WRITTEN, and therefore distributing meds to anyone but your patients is against the law!

 

Please prove me wrong and post something that says otherwise!!!! I'm still waiting.

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Lol.. yet another response with absolutely nothing to back it up. If there is something to read in the law that states what you are saying.. POST IT PLEASE!!! I have been looking for it for months now, and no one seems to be able to come up with it. Yes it says it's legal to obtain meds... but it says it's only legal to DISTRIBUTE meds to YOUR PATIENTS! Yes.. doesn't make much sense to me either, BUT THAT IS THE WAY THE LAW IS WRITTEN, and therefore distributing meds to anyone but your patients is against the law!

 

Please prove me wrong and post something that says otherwise!!!! I'm still waiting.

Read it anyway you like its your choice in the end each person will have to be willing to take the risk if you choose not to thats ok too thats your choice .

 

 

But bring down the argumentative tone please :thumbsu:

 

(TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS SCREAMING !) We do not need infighting on this website. :mellow:

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Read it anyway you like its your choice in the end each person will have to be willing to take the risk if you choose not to thats ok too thats your choice .

 

 

But bring down the argumentative tone please :thumbsu:

 

(TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS SCREAMING !) We do not need infighting on this website. :mellow:

 

Sorry for yelling.. I was just frustrated because I've been looking for this area of the law that I see people all over the place claiming exists. I thought I was missing something, but I am now at peace because I can read between the lines. It looks as though a few people said one thing and thousands of people just followed what they said instead of doing the research themselves and realizing these people are full of crap. (Actually.. they probably did research and see it's not ok to transfer meds to anyone with a card, but they didn't like that so they chose to shrug it off and lie to themselves and say it is within the law.) It's a classic case of your going to believe what you want to.

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Lol.. yet another response with absolutely nothing to back it up. If there is something to read in the law that states what you are saying.. POST IT PLEASE!!! I have been looking for it for months now, and no one seems to be able to come up with it. Yes it says it's legal to obtain meds... but it says it's only legal to DISTRIBUTE meds to YOUR PATIENTS! Yes.. doesn't make much sense to me either, BUT THAT IS THE WAY THE LAW IS WRITTEN, and therefore distributing meds to anyone but your patients is against the law!

 

Please prove me wrong and post something that says otherwise!!!! I'm still waiting.

 

 

 

This thread is an effort to discover how we might better educate ourselves as Patients and Caregivers in this specific area of concern. At no time shall my view, as laid out in this thread, be construed as anything other than my opinion, and at no time shall it be construed as "legal advice" in any capacity.

 

There seems to be a considerable amount of debate as to whether Patient to Caregiver transfers are legal under the law. Please, this thread is not for responses that have, "the judge said so", or "leo says no", or "ask the people in jail" or the ever popular "that's your interpretation". More over, the responses im seeking are better populated in regards to direct influences as to why people have decided one way or the other .

 

For the sake of argument, limits, counts etc... are in agreement with requirements set forth in the law, and we are referring to useable marihuana. No other scenario exists for this to remain a pure and debatable topic.

 

I contend that they are legal under the plain language of the law, nothing plucked or cherry picked, in the same capacity that Patient to Patient transfers are legal, and i will break down my view that Patient to Caregiver transfers are permitted so there is no question as to my logic of how I came to this conclusion.

 

The law affords both patients and caregivers the innate ability to exercise both "Medical Use" and "Assisting with Medical Use".

 

"Medical Use" as defined by the law is as follows:

 

333.26423 Definitions.

 

3. Definitions.

 

Sec. 3. As used in this act:

 

(e) "Medical use" means the acquisition, possession, cultivation, manufacture, use, internal possession, delivery, transfer, or transportation of marihuana or paraphernalia relating to the administration of marihuana to treat or alleviate a registered qualifying patient's debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition.

 

Can we agree that this is established? If so keep reading. If not, please refer to the opening statements of this thread.

 

A Qualified Registered Patient is allowed to do several things, the very least of which are:

 

1. A Qualified Registered Patient can acquire marihuana. (get)

2. A Qualified Registered Patient can possess marihuana. (have)

3. A Qualified Registered Patient can cultivate marihuana. (grow)

4. A Qualified Registered Patient can manufacture Marihuana. (process)

5. A Qualified Registered Patient can use marihuana. (medicate)

6. A Qualified Registered Patient can internally possess marihuana. (ingest)

7. A Qualified Registered Patient can deliver marihuana. (give)

8. A Qualified Registered Patient can transfer marihuana. (partake in the act of (1) getting and/or (7) giving)

9. A Qualified Registered Patient can transport marihuana. (move from one place to another)

 

I have highlighted the points from the definition of Medical Use that apply to the position that Patient to Patient transfers are legal.

 

Can we agree that this is established? If so keep reading. If not, please refer to the opening statements of this thread.

 

A Primary Caregiver is allowed to do several things also, the very least of which are:

 

1. A Primary Caregiver can acquire marihuana. (get)

2. A Primary Caregiver can possess marihuana. (have)

3. A Primary Caregiver can cultivate marihuana. (grow)

4. A Primary Caregiver can manufacture Marihuana. (process)

5. A Primary Caregiver can use marihuana. (assist patient with medicating)

6. A Primary Caregiver can internally possess marihuana. (ingest)(protection from prosecution or action due to second hand ingestion ie smoke, absorption from application or creation of oils, lotions, edibles, etc... for non-patient caregivers)

7. A Primary Caregiver can deliver marihuana. (give)

8. A Primary Caregiver can transfer marihuana. (partake in the act of (1) getting and/or (7) giving)

9. A Primary Caregiver can transport marihuana. (move from one place to another)

 

So as we applied those points highlighted to Patient to Patient transaction, so can we apply those highlighted to justify a Patient to Caregiver transaction:

 

A Primary Caregiver can in fact acquire marihuana that has been cultivated, manufactured, transported, and delivered by a Patient through a transfer at which point said Primary Caregiver can then transport, deliver, and, through another transfer, a Patient can acquire and possess said marihuana.

 

As I read the law as it is written, ANY cardholder transactions are permitted.

 

A Primary Caregiver or a Qualified Registered Patient can in fact acquire marihuana that has been cultivated, manufactured, transported, and delivered by A Primary Caregiver or a Qualified Registered Patient through a transfer at which point said Primary Caregiver or Qualified Registered Patient can then transport and deliver, and, through another transfer, A Primary Caregiver or Patient can acquire and possess said marihuana.

 

If someone at this point can cite the actual law or statute, or declaration or rule that changes the definition of these words depending on a persons role would be helpful, but i dont think any exist.

 

I have laid out the foundation for my opinion based on the words in the law. As a sidenote, I would like to see the actual words in the law that negate any of these points.

 

 

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Guest Happy Guy

Ask an attorney. Have your attorney fees ready. Operate as you see fit AND back yourself up with attorney fees. Anything other than transferring to your own patients might require an attorney to point out why what you were doing was legal. My attorney told me it could cost upwards of $7000 for him to educate law enforcement. If you have anything to lose, walk this way.

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MICHIGAN MEDICAL MARIHUANA ACT (EXCERPT)

Initiated Law 1 of 2008

 

 

333.26424 Qualifying patient or primary caregiver; arrest, prosecution, or penalty prohibited; conditions; presumption; compensation; physician subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty prohibited; marihuana paraphernalia; person in presence or vicinity to medical use of marihuana; registry identification issued outside of department; sale of marihuana as felony; penalty.

 

4. Protections for the Medical Use of Marihuana.

 

4. Protections for the Medical Use of Marihuana.

 

Sec. 4. (a) A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act, provided that the qualifying patient possesses an amount of marihuana that does not exceed 2.5 ounces of usable marihuana, and, if the qualifying patient has not specified that a primary caregiver will be allowed under state law to cultivate marihuana for the qualifying patient, 12 marihuana plants kept in an enclosed, locked facility. Any incidental amount of seeds, stalks, and unusable roots shall also be allowed under state law and shall not be included in this amount.

 

(b) A primary caregiver who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for assisting a qualifying patient to whom he or she is connected through the department's registration process with the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act, provided that the primary caregiver possesses an amount of marihuana that does not exceed:

 

(1) 2.5 ounces of usable marihuana for each qualifying patient to whom he or she is connected through the department's registration process; and

 

(2) for each registered qualifying patient who has specified that the primary caregiver will be allowed under state law to cultivate marihuana for the qualifying patient, 12 marihuana plants kept in an enclosed, locked facility; and

 

(3) any incidental amount of seeds, stalks, and unusable roots.

 

© A person shall not be denied custody or visitation of a minor for acting in accordance with this act, unless the person's behavior is such that it creates an unreasonable danger to the minor that can be clearly articulated and substantiated.

 

(d) There shall be a presumption that a qualifying patient or primary caregiver is engaged in the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act if the qualifying patient or primary caregiver:

 

(1) is in possession of a registry identification card; and

 

(2) is in possession of an amount of marihuana that does not exceed the amount allowed under this act. The presumption may be rebutted by evidence that conduct related to marihuana was not for the purpose of alleviating the qualifying patient's debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition, in accordance with this act.

 

(e) A registered primary caregiver may receive compensation for costs associated with assisting a registered qualifying patient in the medical use of marihuana. Any such compensation shall not constitute the sale of controlled substances.

 

(f) A physician shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by the Michigan board of medicine, the Michigan board of osteopathic medicine and surgery, or any other business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, solely for providing written certifications, in the course of a bona fide physician-patient relationship and after the physician has completed a full assessment of the qualifying patient's medical history, or for otherwise stating that, in the physician's professional opinion, a patient is likely to receive therapeutic or palliative benefit from the medical use of marihuana to treat or alleviate the patient's serious or debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the serious or debilitating medical condition, provided that nothing shall prevent a professional licensing board from sanctioning a physician for failing to properly evaluate a patient's medical condition or otherwise violating the standard of care for evaluating medical conditions.

 

(g) A person shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for providing a registered qualifying patient or a registered primary caregiver with marihuana paraphernalia for purposes of a qualifying patient's medical use of marihuana.

 

(h) Any marihuana, marihuana paraphernalia, or licit property that is possessed, owned, or used in connection with the medical use of marihuana, as allowed under this act, or acts incidental to such use, shall not be seized or forfeited.

 

(i) A person shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, solely for being in the presence or vicinity of the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act, or for assisting a registered qualifying patient with using or administering marihuana.

 

(j) A registry identification card, or its equivalent, that is issued under the laws of another state, district, territory, commonwealth, or insular possession of the United States that allows the medical use of marihuana by a visiting qualifying patient, or to allow a person to assist with a visiting qualifying patient's medical use of marihuana, shall have the same force and effect as a registry identification card issued by the department.

 

(k) Any registered qualifying patient or registered primary caregiver who sells marihuana to someone who is not allowed to use marihuana for medical purposes under this act shall have his or her registry identification card revoked and is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both, in addition to any other penalties for the distribution of marihuana.

 

 

History: 2008, Initiated Law 1, Eff. Dec. 4, 2008

Compiler's Notes: MCL 333.26430 of Initiated Law 1 of 2008 provides:10. Severability.Sec. 10. Any section of this act being held invalid as to any person or circumstances shall not affect the application of any other section of this act that can be given full effect without the invalid section or application.

 

© 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan

Edited by Darkmatter
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The law is so vague with respect to P2P transfer, let me give you a silly but easily plausable scenerio.

 

I set 2g of meds on a table and walk away. Another legal michigan patient walks up and picks up 2g of meds off the table. Both of us are legal to possess said meds. Did we do anything wrong or illegal? At no time was a sale made and at no time did anyone without legal authority possess meds.

 

You can see by all the responses that you may want a direct and exact answer for your question but your lawmakers havent laid out enough info for us to know EXACTLY what can and cannot happen in EVERY situation, and most people on this site are the good guys trying to do things right.

 

By what seems like emotion filled posts and a desire to have more answers, I expect we will see you in Lansing May 25th!

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