The Importance Of Decarboxylation In Edible Making

[+Malamute]

Read closely. GG started the nastiness.  I simply suggested it was CBN increase moreso, told my personal story and the solution I use to resolve the CBN issue for myself.

 

 GG then went nasty.

 

Ask her why she has to be that way. :-)

[trichcycler]

does this tension go back to when oils were not being made properly by posters and people were getting sick because of it ? 

[+Malamute]

Sounds more like CBN increase.

 

Which is of course happening. Both processes(THCA and CBN) But CBN is more likely increasing faster than THCA conversion at that point.

 

Wouldn't degradation to CBN take a lot longer than 2-8 weeks if stored properly?

 

Another good question by Norby. CBN is happening from the first day THC is produced on the plant. Those lights and environment are degrading everything the whole way through.

 

Naw. It increases from the day it grows... ;-)  But definitely increases as the days progress from first cutting th eplant down, then add in all that processing and such with heat, pre- decarbox, then cooking it,... cbn is sky high and increasing rapidly.

 

 As i said, the more processing, heat, light etc that is happening, the quicker the degradation occurs.

 

CBN actually negatively effects my heart so I would never use that process. I use ice extraction then simply melting the kief into whatever oil based product I am cooking at that moment.  Keeps CBN as minimal as possible.

 

 Many people like CBN though(those that generally prefer oil/hash).  To each his own aye. :-)

 

Personal story of how i have had problems thus why i had to adjust what i do.  This has helped many people.  GG, big difference between claims of a cancer cure and saying a side effect of using oil is bothering me. And i said with a smiley face to each their own on how they wish to consume cannabinoids.

 

 

 

And then,... Ms. Cheerful comes in with a freak out..... Calling me a hypocrite; misrepresenting my problems with testing and its accuracy; 100% guaranteeing it isnt CBN(which is absurd) of course there is CBN increase.  Calling me illogical because basic science shows organic degradation is unavoidable; telling me to only deal with politics when i obviously know more about chemical biology etc etc.  And i do not make ANY oil, not just ISO hash oil. I quit doing that years ago because of how it effects my heart.  I started making ISO in 1981 when i bought my first isomizer with my buddies.  I have just a little experience with it(decades). 

 

 

 

 

That is kind of hypocritical for you to even suggest that.

 

After how many times you have told the community, especially Northern Labs, that testing is worthless, for entertainment and gimmick purposes only.

 

It appears that you are incorrect.

 

I wonder how you can be accurate about the CBN content since you don't believe in testing or methods used. (must be clairvoyant)

 

I 100% guarantee it is not CBN. There is no logic to that statement. No common sense to that statement either. You are great with politics, stick with it.

 

Any oil makers out there? I am sure you all could back this up. First, as soon as the oil is made and sucked up into the syringes, while it is still warm, you can take an extremely large dose and it will not have the intense effects. CBN? I think not. It is high THCa. It takes time for it to decarb to THC. It is more comfortable buzz right out of the purge pan, nice and warm and fresh. Any oil makers out there disagree when it comes to RSO?

 

Maybe if it is over purged or over heated and caused damage that is not the case. I have tried that just to know, and it is a different buzz and there is no cure time with it. It is what it is.

 

Where is the logic in it suddenly converting to CBN three weeks later for example? The big change taking place in a 24-48 hour period in a cool dark environment. No logic in that. Anyway, What is happening is the THCa converting to THC. I am confident of this. CBN? I should quote your other comment, but I will just finish it here. You don't make concentrates using the RSO method because of CBN? Where did you dream that up from? The last reputable test result I have seen on an RSO sample showed 95% THC and 0 CBN. WOW! How did they do that? Maybe the tooth fairy? That's right, you don't believe in testing, not even the top notch California facilities eh? I still don't believe you have ever ingested real RSO.

 

If you ask me, my best guess, the reason why you like your oven better and your product does not mess with your heart is because you are actually lacking THC. Doesn't THC effect your blood pressure and increase your heart rate? If you ask me, since it is an oven and you are not using a solvent to aid in the decarb process, you are creating many CBNs from overheating the outer parts, the central heating aspect gives you THC, and what does not get decarbed, which is probably most that did not vape away, is THCa. That is from experience. It has been about 4 years now, haven't missed a dose yet.

 

Either way, that is my opinion. No interest in a debate.

 

 And where did i say i use an oven?  I melt butter and use water extracted kief then make fudge if i feel the need for medibles of some sort.  It bothers me much less, yet still gets me sometimes.

 

 So basically, i am still waiting for an apology to your EXTREME overreaction to my 3 comments before you went off the rail.

 

 Read my posts again.  Did it at all justify your reaction GG?

 

 Or was it just a bad year for you?

[+Malamute]

It's just sexual tension grassmatch.... hehehe....

 

 

TOTALLY kidding.

 

 Smile once in awhile aye....

[trichcycler]

for sure not since I've been around. but some time ago there was a facebook crowd, I forget what they called themselves, who would collect scraps from anyone they could and make oil and supposedly gift it to the needy. A great ideal. I bet smoking the runny sap  wouldn't cause much damage, but I think they made it for eating, and changed their procedure, then disappeared. was a couple yrs ago. hacks prolly.

I don't know ANYONE who has become ill using extracts. some were really euphoric, but never ill. Even the most rudimentary extraction is effective and can be safe for consumption. I would prefer the ancient olive oil soak for an edible, if I needed an edible.

[GrowGoddess]

I am glad to hear that. I know it can be really noxious if it is made from bad material or not fully purged of solvent, but had never heard of anyone actually getting sick from it. That is good to hear that you also have not encountered that, and I hope those bad old techniques are history by now.

 

Sadly, I have heard of people getting sick from oil not made correctly. It was about a year or so ago.

I am not sure if it came from the same oil maker, I believe so, but I don't know who they were. Apparently they were not using the correct naphtha. It was heavy with other chemicals.

 

I have seen charts of different solvents and the oils that were produced. These charts showed the different levels of THC, THCa, CBD, CBDa, etc. that each solvent used produced using the same material. Naphtha extracted the most THC and THCa when combined. If allowed to naturally complete the decarb process, potentially the naphtha could produce an oil with the highest THC.

 

I don't feel comfortable using naphtha. I don't know enough about it. So I chose a safer alternative, 99% isopropyl or 190 proof or higher grain alcohol.

 

I also herd of two cases not in this state where isopropyl was used. The product was not fully purged. The patients experienced headaches, lockjaw, and stomach pains. I believe that was the end of it. Just a one-time bad experience. They did say that the oil was very runny. Different strains can produce a more runny oil, but the way they described it, my assumption was that the oil was not completely purged and the oil was made of very low quality product to where taking a very large dose offered minimal effects.

 

Thankfully, these patients are okay as far as I know at this time.

 

The only other really bad experience I can speak of is I know someone on FB that ate a whole gram at one time, first time ever taking the oil. He went to the "funny farm" for a few days. I must say, it was probably some pretty good stuff!! I know I would not take a whole gram for my very first time!

[trichcycler]

phaq I think we're talking of the same producers locally. I thought they might be involved in this forum bicker of yesteryear is all.

 

for the record, their is nothing wrong with using Naptha as a solvent. When used correctly many solvents can be used safely, to make a safe extraction, and are often.

naptha is used at that greenhouse to make extraction for rx, they use a rotational evaporator, available anywhere. I've had naptha extracts made this way and they were superb, not like butane, or alcohol, but still quality and even different effects.  solvent purity, total removal, and sealed safety are key

[trichcycler]

its not for an amateur, but there  are online courses that will clearly show how to operate the rotational evaporator. ( https://www.google.com/search?q=rotational+evaporator&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=l3KSU4b8MejksAS4zYGAAg&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=638 ) but I suppose, even IF a person could find the lab grade Naptha, there will be safety issues in storing, handling, measuring the chemical, etc.

 

keep in mind its the same thing that's in Moth Balls, an insecticide/pesticide, asphalt as a solvent/sealer and some other icky stuff. I avoid It for the safer gooder experiences. It makes little sense to me to go so far as to grow organically only to soak your final product  in an insecticidal non food grade solvent.

[GregS]

If one were to locate the correct "light" naphtha, i.e. the fraction of distillates that boils between 30 and 90 C (86 to 194 F), is the process of making an extract free of residuals explosive or highly flammable in any way, assuming non-sealed equipment?

 

Anybody wanting to use naphtha to make oil should check the MSDS for what they purchase to make sure the range of boiling points are correct. The higher boiling points are left behind as a noxious residue that smells like paint thinner.

Naptha vapor is absolutely explosive within your description.

[+Malamute]

Liquid CO2 und von Super Critical Fluid Extraction seems the way to go nowadays in all honesty.  Safer, cleaner... all the other good stuff. :-)

[GrowGoddess]

Residual iso is easy to smell and taste, even at low concentrations. If it smells like rubbing alcohol, it has residual iso in it. If it tastes peppery, it has residual iso in it. Did they describe either of these qualities? What you are describing could also be the result of a flawed process with bad material, for instance 70% iso with moldy material, where the residual water keeps hold of the mold and makes it runny and low potency. Yuck, regardless.

 

Unfortunately they did not provide that much detail, although, one out of the two did mention possibly smelling the iso. Each had purchased the oils from their local dispensaries (not in Michigan). These cases were discussed at another cannabis forum. They posted asking what was wrong with their oil. Basically the community agreed that something was not done right. Sure it was somebody pushing junk, and am glad it was not in Michigan.

 

Ewww, mold. Yuck is right!! That is why I recommend to patients to make their own oil. Whether they grow their own or obtain the buds some other way. Then they know what is in it.

[trichcycler]

and totally unavailable for 99% of patients wishing to make their own herbal remedy unfortunately.  I'm not so sure of the safety factors either. Because it is not flammable does not make it safe. The pressures used are deadly, and require special protected rooms to operate the larger units. Initial costs are prohibitive.

Liquid CO2 und von Super Critical Fluid Extraction seems the way to go nowadays in all honesty.  Safer, cleaner... all the other good stuff. :-)

[trichcycler]

I'd say that was a case of TWO parties "pushing junk" The original producer who may not have known any better, and the dispensary, who certainly should have known better.  The local goofballs are still in action, I've seen the nasty oil first hand of recent. Not sure if its the same folks from the past, might be a new crop of boneheads. It came from a dispensary and is made in MI. caveat emptor, or make your own like GG says.

[GrowGoddess]

and totally unavailable for 99% of patients wishing to make their own herbal remedy unfortunately.  I'm not so sure of the safety factors either. Because it is not flammable does not make it safe. The pressures used are deadly, and require special protected rooms to operate the larger units. Initial costs are prohibitive.

 

You are right, the least expensive super critical CO2 set up I have seen is almost $4,000. One of the industrial units I have seen, well that runs about $280,000.

For a do it yourselfer, well, it looks a bit dangerous. You heat the tanks up until they go almost critical, until they reach around 4,000 PSI from heating them to a critical state. I would not want to be near one of those tanks if they exploded.

I don't know all of the details, but for CO2 extractions, solvents are still needed. At least to get a final quality product.

I must say, that some of the pictures I have seen of the final product are some of the best I have seen. However, I can't say that they look any better than the oil that I have been producing with 99% iso and my frozen method.  A lot cheaper and safer too, in my opinion.

Not knocking CO2 oil. Just there is a lot involved and it can be very dangerous. At least with the super critical method.

[trichcycler]

I'm not aware of any other kind of C02 cannabis extraction except for the supercritical one. Lots believe that their dry ice run has something to do with c02 extraction, when in fact it's the dry ice temp, freezing trichome stalks, mechanical breakage and micron sifting them from other vegetable matter......

 

I would prefer GG's winterized than any c02 extraction too.    

[Hippy KK]

When making bubble hash, is it best to decarboxylate the trimmings prior to making the bubble hash or after making it?

[trichcycler]

It is best to dry your trimmings before extracting from them. After drying them properly, they will be decarboxylated and ready to process. Hippies of yesteryear would cut their crop and wish to extract immediately. To this you may decarb or not, depending upon the effects desired. I enjoy both ways immensely. Fresh results in a reddish color, thinner concrete while dried material produces a golden one. Drying your material will rid 75% of its water weight. water sucks in extractions, naturally drying is a good idea. don't put it into an oven unless you don't have time to dry, please.

[Restorium2]

It is best to dry your trimmings before extracting from them. After drying them properly, they will be decarboxylated and ready to process. Hippies of yesteryear would cut their crop and wish to extract immediately. To this you may decarb or not, depending upon the effects desired. I enjoy both ways immensely. Fresh results in a reddish color, thinner concrete while dried material produces a golden one. Drying your material will rid 75% of its water weight. water sucks in extractions, naturally drying is a good idea. don't put it into an oven unless you don't have time to dry, please.

grassmatch,

In your opinion, what would be the 'down side' if you were to use a food dehydrator to dry the buds you were going to extract from?

[trichcycler]

I have done this of course, and would do it again if I didn't have five or so days to dry the material. I can compare the differences in taste to the times I've smoked quick dried bud. I believe the natural drying time involves maybe more chemical changes than we may think, responsible for these off flavors. Maybe flavors don't matter, maybe they do, but I like flavors a lot. Comparing my own quick dried, then extracted, to naturally dried, then extracted, reminds me not to do that again. my patients have made similar remarks. If it was the same, or better, and I had to destroy large amounts, I would surely be practicing the quick drying. I'm never in that kind of a pinch or hurry, and never out of the meds I need, and we prefer it dried naturally, so I continue. I don't see a downside to quick drying, if the end user does not.

[Restorium2]

I have done this of course, and would do it again if I didn't have five or so days to dry the material. I can compare the differences in taste to the times I've smoked quick dried bud. I believe the natural drying time involves maybe more chemical changes than we may think, responsible for these off flavors. Maybe flavors don't matter, maybe they do, but I like flavors a lot. Comparing my own quick dried, then extracted, to naturally dried, then extracted, reminds me not to do that again. my patients have made similar remarks. If it was the same, or better, and I had to destroy large amounts, I would surely be practicing the quick drying. I'm never in that kind of a pinch or hurry, and never out of the meds I need, and we prefer it dried naturally, so I continue. I don't see a downside to quick drying, if the end user does not.

Thanks. So if you were using it for cooking it wouldn't matter to you then? Because you are going to heat it more cooking the medible than the food dehydrator did?

 

Do you think low heat drying(dehydrator) matters when using the extract in a gel cap?

[trichcycler]

the difference(to me) would be heating the actual extraction in the medible vs heating the vegetable material instead. I would only use a dehydrator if I was in a hurry to dispose of the cabbage. Otherwise I'm stuck on the "flavors matter" notion, in or out of a brownie. I would have ot know more about the chemistry involved in producing the off flavors to judge the end use gel cap efficacy, but I tend think there would be no matter when using it this way.

 

I've overheated oil and still received great relief after using it. After all, like you sorta say, I'm super heating it before I inhale it anyways. I can see the need for quick drying this way because of ridiculous on hand weight restrictions. When our restrictions are lifted I can see many more discoveries abound in the lab, the garden, and our health.

[trichcycler]

Does the difference in slow vs. quick drying effect the flavor of the extract or concentrate, or just the flavor of the burning plant material? Is there a difference in flavor of slow vs. quick dried through a vaporizer, for instance?

excellent question. happy to clarify. I wish I could quantify my findings with real evidence, but our personal experiences will have to suffice, until I learn how to use this orgasmatron to detect flavors

 

The off flavor I detect in quick dried buds is detectable in quick dried trichomes, especially in a dry sift, most likely for the added cabbage in the mix. Not as prevalent, and maybe sensitized now, but still present in the oil while vaporizing(only the oil)to me, subjectively, surely. If it is not detectable, and assists a producer in some way, why not I say.

[Restorium2]

Does the difference in slow vs. quick drying effect the flavor of the extract or concentrate, or just the flavor of the burning plant material? Is there a difference in flavor of slow vs. quick dried through a vaporizer, for instance?

I have noticed different flavors vaping oil. I noticed that winterizing will make it so you can get more of that little hint of taste of what a bud smells like, even after 8 hours in the food dehydrator. I have done quick washes of fresh buds and didn't notice a lot of taste difference between that and what I made from dehydrated long wash that has been winterized. Quick wash oil from fresh buds seems to be a little harder to handle than slow washed. I get that jittery feeling and sometimes I get some stomach queeziness. Almost want to vomit. I think that slow washing adds something to smooth out the effects, for me anyway. I have a much better experience from slow wash of dried buds than a quick wash of fresh buds.

[medmanmike]

I have noticed different flavors vaping oil. I noticed that winterizing will make it so you can get more of that little hint of taste of what a bud smells like, even after 8 hours in the food dehydrator. I have done quick washes of fresh buds and didn't notice a lot of taste difference between that and what I made from dehydrated long wash that has been winterized. Quick wash oil from fresh buds seems to be a little harder to handle than slow washed. I get that jittery feeling and sometimes I get some stomach queeziness. Almost want to vomit. I think that slow washing adds something to smooth out the effects, for me anyway. I have a much better experience from slow wash of dried buds than a quick wash of fresh buds.

Res, would you mind elaborating on what you mean by "slow wash" method?  I'm familiar with Rick Simpson's method as well as GG's QWISO and her no-heat method, aka ND TAR, as she's been calling it.  Both of which are "quick wash". Thanks.

[Restorium2]

Res, would you mind elaborating on what you mean by "slow wash" method?  I'm familiar with Rick Simpson's method as well as GG's QWISO and her no-heat method, aka ND TAR, as she's been calling it.  Both of which are "quick wash". Thanks.

I use the contained ISO2 extractor machine for about 18 hours. The plant material will have an appearance like straw when you are done. I had an 'old hand' advise me to do it that way when I first started making extracts. You have to winterize if you want a smooth hit.