If You May Need To Rely On The Affirmative Defense Just Be Sure You Qualify First.

[El Tiberon]

I have a question as it would concern the officers latitude in making the arrest.

 

For instance in my personal case, I have glaucoma. You can not determine this from just a visual examination. However, I also have major problems with angina as it relates to the heart surgeries I have had. I also have an I.C.D. implanted in my chest that is clearly visable to the naked eye. I do not know anything about MMMA, but I think I could get a card on either. I have literally millions of dollars in doctors payments and records for both combined.

 

If the person in front of the officer is obviously a patient, what is the latitude of the officer as it relates to the arrest? Are they willing to concede defeat when confronted by overwhelming evidence?

 

I am truly interested in what is said here because it could potentially affect me very soon. I know the seriousnes of my medical condition. I do not however trust government and having my name on anything that can be searched by some loser whose idea of a career was 6 weeks in BLET and 30 years kicking civilians around.

Edited June 27, 2012 by El Tiberon

[CaveatLector]

I have a question as it would concern the officers latitude in making the arrest.

 

For instance in my personal case, I have glaucoma. You can not determine this from just a visual examination. However, I also have major problems with angina as it relates to the heart surgeries I have had. I also have an I.C.D. implanted in my chest that is clearly visable to the naked eye. I do not know anything about MMMA, but I think I could get a card on either. I have literally millions of dollars in doctors payments and records for both combined.

 

If the person in front of the officer is obviously a patient, what is the latitude of the officer as it relates to the arrest? Are they willing to concede defeat when confronted by overwhelming evidence?

You mentioned nothing about a Dr recommending use of mm for your condition. You need that for an aff def. Read the first post on this thread. Edited June 27, 2012 by CaveatLector

[El Tiberon]

You mentioned nothing about a Dr recommending use of mm for your condition. You need that for an aff def. Read the first post on this thread.

I was speaking to those with the capacity for abstract thought

[GregS]

I have a question as it would concern the officers latitude in making the arrest.

 

For instance in my personal case, I have glaucoma. You can not determine this from just a visual examination. However, I also have major problems with angina as it relates to the heart surgeries I have had. I also have an I.C.D. implanted in my chest that is clearly visable to the naked eye. I do not know anything about MMMA, but I think I could get a card on either. I have literally millions of dollars in doctors payments and records for both combined.

 

If the person in front of the officer is obviously a patient, what is the latitude of the officer as it relates to the arrest? Are they willing to concede defeat when confronted by overwhelming evidence?

 

I am truly interested in what is said here because it could potentially affect me very soon. I know the seriousnes of my medical condition. I do not however trust government and having my name on anything that can be searched by some loser whose idea of a career was 6 weeks in BLET and 30 years kicking civilians around.

 

Was there police misconduct involved? Did they in any way that you can document refuse to afford you reasonable accommodation for your disabilities?

[El Tiberon]

My head hurts.........I wish there was a placing their hand over their face and shaking their head emoticon.

 

Dude when did I ever say there was an arrest or accuse the state of some sort of misconduct?

 

Come on guy...

[El Tiberon]

I think there is just as much chance of this as there was before the law of a police officer just letting somebody go. It certainly happened, some would say quite a bit. I would imagine that unless faced with an extreme compliance situation, any officer that voted for this law would avoid arresting an obviously disabled person. That just makes sense from a human perspective.

 

But it is nothing to be relied upon as the penalties are so harsh if the officer decides that the letter of the law is more important than the purpose. Some officers have been personally making a point of this, unfortunately.

 

The doctor certification would be required in court to prove the first element of the defense if you are arrested.

 

I forgot the handicapped plate on the jeep as well. Licensed and registered to the same.

[Dr. Bob]

My head hurts.........I wish there was a placing their hand over their face and shaking their head emoticon.

 

Dude when did I ever say there was an arrest or accuse the state of some sort of misconduct?

 

Come on guy...

 

Just roll with it man, he is on a tangent. Hopefully I answered your question privately.

 

Dr. Bob

[El Tiberon]

I can get the rec. If I can't, literally nobody could either. I have been growing in Mexico for some time now. I am just examining the facts as it will relate to me taking care of me. If I have a 75% chance of not being arrested, it is worth the risk. Down here, I have 100% chance of having my head cut off if I get busted.

[+Malamute]

It can be argued that vast numbers of medical users who go cannabando will overrun the courts to the point that the law finally has to say enough.

 

Nicholson will be determined with a section 8 defense. The COA remanded, with the ruling that the lower court consider whether he is now in compliance with all requisites in accordance with the act. Because the court has ruled that not having proof of registry at the place of medical use is not compliant, there is no other way to go, except to plead guilty or appeal.

 

Again. Wrong.

 

This is a Sec. 4 defense.

[CaveatLector]

I was speaking to those with the capacity for abstract thought

Given the fact that there are very specific requirements necessary for eligibility for the aff def I don't think abstract thought is what we need here.

 

You asked:

If the person in front of the officer is obviously a patient, what is the latitude of the officer as it relates to the arrest? Are they willing to concede defeat when confronted by overwhelming evidence?

 

That is a very subjective question/answer. You're asking people to get inside the mind of the cop to give you an answer. So, in an effort to get inside the cop's mind I naturally do the math, so to speak. Not having a card obviously reduces your chances greatly. Not having a recommendation means you can be prosecuted. It is more likely a cop will NOT let you off if he knows you can be prosecuted. He does the math too. He likes a high arrest to case clearance ratio. This is all common sense.

 

At any rate it appears you were looking for pure speculation. I suggest to get a more accurate answer that you commission an EPIC/MRA poll.

 

So, do you want abstract or do you want solid advice? Either way it's groooovy man!

[El Tiberon]

The abstract was mentioned because I was too lazy to go into everything it would take for an answer. In all honesty, I am the idiot here for making assumptions.

 

I know I can get the recommendation from a doctor in my own state or in Michigan without question. The rec is a given.

 

I have a vehicle that is plated as a handicapped vehicle.

 

I have paperwork confirming my diagnosis(s) and rec papers would be in the vehicle.

 

I have identifying marks that would be associated with the diagnosis detailed in the paperwork inside the vehicle.

 

I have foreign objects that would be associated with the diagnosis implanted inside my body and visable to the naked eye.

 

 

 

Now I may just be an ignorant southern boy but it seems to me that it would take a pretty hard-headed individual to drag someone like this off to jail.....

 

Are ya'll surrounded by dumbasses and I need to look at Oregon?

[CaveatLector]

The abstract was mentioned because I was too lazy to go into everything it would take for an answer. In all honesty, I am the idiot here for making assumptions.

 

I know I can get the recommendation from a doctor in my own state or in Michigan without question. The rec is a given.

 

I have a vehicle that is plated as a handicapped vehicle.

 

I have paperwork confirming my diagnosis(s) and rec papers would be in the vehicle.

 

I have identifying marks that would be associated with the diagnosis detailed in the paperwork inside the vehicle.

 

I have foreign objects that would be associated with the diagnosis implanted inside my body and visable to the naked eye.

 

 

 

Now I may just be an ignorant southern boy but it seems to me that it would take a pretty hard-headed individual to drag someone like this off to jail.....

 

Are ya'll surrounded by dumbasses and I need to look at Oregon?

If you can get the rec then I suggest getting the card as well.

[Dilligaf]

The abstract was mentioned because I was too lazy to go into everything it would take for an answer. In all honesty, I am the idiot here for making assumptions.

 

I know I can get the recommendation from a doctor in my own state or in Michigan without question. The rec is a given.

 

I have a vehicle that is plated as a handicapped vehicle.

 

I have paperwork confirming my diagnosis(s) and rec papers would be in the vehicle.

 

I have identifying marks that would be associated with the diagnosis detailed in the paperwork inside the vehicle.

 

I have foreign objects that would be associated with the diagnosis implanted inside my body and visable to the naked eye.

 

 

 

Now I may just be an ignorant southern boy but it seems to me that it would take a pretty hard-headed individual to drag someone like this off to jail.....

 

Are ya'll surrounded by dumbasses and I need to look at Oregon?

 

There was a recent case where a patient with a feeding tube was pulled over and arrested for driving under the influence. The nonsensical part was when after he was processed they took him back to his car and let him drive home. And yes, we are surrounded by dumbasses.

[SFC]

Quote of the day goes to Dillagaf. " Yes we are surrounded by Dumbasses". lol

[knucklehead bob]

[El Tiberon]

Don't get me wrong, I am proud of what Michigan has accomplished. Much more than my own state. I read the opinion of the state supreme court decision and it really lifted my spirits.

 

The problem is the police and the idea of "creative policing".

 

I really dont have time for all of that and I doubt any county jail in Michigan has the resources to deal with a NYHA Class IV patient. Do they have bedside phone service that my ICD-information is sent by?

 

The costs could be enormous considering the amount of stress I would be under. The last great defiance if I pass in their custody and bunny muffin a 2 million dollar hospital bill that WOULD be billed to the local county taxpayers.

 

For a minor cannabis arrest......

 

There is a great comfort that comes with terminal illness once you accept it. There is nothing more to be taken other than the last breath.

 

Michigan is closer to my state. She is the probable lottery pick.

 

I am almost certain I will end up that way and do my thing. If they want me, they can come and get me.

 

If something ignorant happens, I am sure ya'll will read about it.

[Dr. Bob]

Quote of the day goes to Dillagaf. " Yes we are surrounded by Dumbasses". lol

 

I tend to agree, that is a pretty good quote...

 

Dr. Bob

[bobandtorey]

My only agenda is making sure that people don't end up in the maw of the court system without a strong defense. Hundreds of caregivers and patients have been arrested and prosecuted under this law simply because they refuse to acknowledge that the system is perverting the intent of the Act, in some areas worse than others.

 

My theory of activism is that if one wants to change that behavior long term, when they get into court they need to win. If activists keep going into court and losing, everybody loses.

 

Seriously, as an activist, I am so disappointed when somebody chooses not to fight charges, but I can totally understand wanting to just get out of the mess. We have not been able to support the vast majority of patients and caregivers caught up in the system to date. We need to be doing everything we can to ensure that those intending to use the courts to enforce their rights under the law will prevail.

 

and i agree

and we have not given up i have been telling people for over 3 and 1/2 years that we are lucky in some ways that we were the first one's to be raided because i feel that if we were to get raided as of today we would be messed no one could help us and we have no $$

i also still believe that we were/are legal but the stress that comes with being in court so long will wear you down

Peace From The Front

Bob

[knucklehead bob]

and i agree

and we have not given up i have been telling people for over 3 and 1/2 years that we are lucky in some ways that we were the first one's to be raided because i feel that if we were to get raided as of today we would be messed no one could help us and we have no $$

i also still believe that we were/are legal but the stress that comes with being in court so long will wear you down

Peace From The Front

Bob

Don't you ever let them forget from whence you came Bob ! ! !

[Croppled1]

Just a comment on a topic that came up during this thread and last week which I know went over my own head in injury and illness is the topic of useable marijuana as it effects using the defense . We do have a very loose definition of the " Dried Flowers " . Hence , hopefully the burden of proof would be on prosecutors what is in ones room on dry racks is " useable " . Since departments are now drying cannabis to preserve it for court this almost makes it mute . Some people spoke of raw plants being useable for juicing and that really did cause fear but we can see it would not apply . I would still be careful with what is on my dry racks corrosponding to practical use and dry weight limits . A mention of twice your weekly useage as it took 2 weeks to dry min or your allowed weight in curing seemed practical . Whether it will always be accepted who knows ? I imagine lawmakers would be interested of the drug task forces make more arrests per visit then regular patrol officers ? It could point to educational needs to protect patients who may be very sensitive to arrest proceedures as a demographic as well as very expensive to handle safely .

Edited June 28, 2012 by Croppled1

[bobandtorey]

Again. Wrong.

 

This is a Sec. 4 defense.

imho i do not agree as i see it their is no Sec 4 defense because Sec 4 say's you can't be arrested so that is why we all only have Sec 8 imho

[bobandtorey]

Don't get me wrong, I am proud of what Michigan has accomplished. Much more than my own state. I read the opinion of the state supreme court decision and it really lifted my spirits.

 

The problem is the police and the idea of "creative policing".

 

I really dont have time for all of that and I doubt any county jail in Michigan has the resources to deal with a NYHA Class IV patient. Do they have bedside phone service that my ICD-information is sent by?

 

The costs could be enormous considering the amount of stress I would be under. The last great defiance if I pass in their custody and bunny muffin a 2 million dollar hospital bill that WOULD be billed to the local county taxpayers.

 

For a minor cannabis arrest......

 

There is a great comfort that comes with terminal illness once you accept it. There is nothing more to be taken other than the last breath.

 

Michigan is closer to my state. She is the probable lottery pick.

 

I am almost certain I will end up that way and do my thing. If they want me, they can come and get me.

 

If something ignorant happens, I am sure ya'll will read about it.

i think that you have never been in the Oakland County jail they could care less as to what med's you take you won't get them their sorry

[Dr. Bob]

Just a comment on a topic that came up during this thread and last week which I know went over my own head in injury and illness is the topic of useable marijuana as it effects using the defense . We do have a very loose definition of the " Dried Flowers " . Hence , hopefully the burden of proof would be on prosecutors what is in ones room on dry racks is " useable " . Since departments are now drying cannabis to preserve it for court this almost makes it mute . Some people spoke of raw plants being useable for juicing and that really did cause fear but we can see it would not apply . I would still be careful with what is on my dry racks corrosponding to practical use and dry weight limits . A mention of twice your weekly useage as it took 2 weeks to dry min or your allowed weight in curing seemed practical . Whether it will always be accepted who knows ? I imagine lawmakers would be interested of the drug task forces make more arrests per visit then regular patrol officers ? It could point to educational needs to protect patients who may be very sensitive to arrest proceedures as a demographic as well as very expensive to handle safely .

 

This is a good point to discuss. There is a 'grey area' when it comes to dried plants vs curing plants. Right now, if there is THC in it, there are those who will call it usable. Unfortunately, those people have badges and the unlimited power of the state to back them up. I've made this proposal once before. Didn't hear much response, so I'll make it again.

 

These 'cannabis colleges' that offer growing courses are actually a very good source for formally trained experts to help patients. If they would offer courses on 'expert witness' training, I think that would help things in court.

 

To be an expert witness, you should be articulate and good under the pressure of the stand. You will need some formal training and experience- be able to document them. You will have to answer questions like usable vs total weight, cured vs uncured, the different methods of ingestion, effects of strains, methods of preparing hash, oil, medibles, etc. I would think that if some sort of formal training program was in place, we could get a core of paid, expert witnesses available to defend patients in the face of the state's 'expert' from the MSP, etc. Not only would the testimony be helpful, so would a little guidance from the expert so the attorney asks the right questions of the prosecutor's expert.

 

Just a thought, does anyone have any contacts with the cannabis colleges? We need to approach them with the idea. I don't know enough about growing to really be of much help or work with the colleges, except perhaps to talk about medical effects.

 

Dr. Bob

[CaveatLector]

This is a good point to discuss. There is a 'grey area' when it comes to dried plants vs curing plants. Right now, if there is THC in it, there are those who will call it usable. Unfortunately, those people have badges and the unlimited power of the state to back them up. I've made this proposal once before. Didn't hear much response, so I'll make it again.

 

These 'cannabis colleges' that offer growing courses are actually a very good source for formally trained experts to help patients. If they would offer courses on 'expert witness' training, I think that would help things in court.

 

To be an expert witness, you should be articulate and good under the pressure of the stand. You will need some formal training and experience- be able to document them. You will have to answer questions like usable vs total weight, cured vs uncured, the different methods of ingestion, effects of strains, methods of preparing hash, oil, medibles, etc. I would think that if some sort of formal training program was in place, we could get a core of paid, expert witnesses available to defend patients in the face of the state's 'expert' from the MSP, etc. Not only would the testimony be helpful, so would a little guidance from the expert so the attorney asks the right questions of the prosecutor's expert.

 

Just a thought, does anyone have any contacts with the cannabis colleges? We need to approach them with the idea. I don't know enough about growing to really be of much help or work with the colleges, except perhaps to talk about medical effects.

 

Dr. Bob

 

I agree regarding expert witnesses. If you have never withstood the pressure of a good cross-examination grilling then you need to be well prepared for that to testify. Being articulate and educated isn't enough. There is a reason there are "expert" witnesses. They, like cops, will be trained, or have enough experience, to handle the pressure of testifying. Never underestimate the value of a good expert witness. They may be expensive but they can save your donkey.

 

FYI I know a very well-spoken, articulate, and educated cg/pt whom I have used in the past. If anyone is ever in need please feel free to hit me up. Parenthetically, an expert witness database would be an excellent addition to this website.

 

As for dried v. cured, Im going to address that later. No time right now.

[+Malamute]

imho i do not agree as i see it their is no Sec 4 defense because Sec 4 say's you can't be arrested so that is why we all only have Sec 8 imho

 

That is just incorrect.