Obamacare

[GrowGoddess]

That guy Grow Goddess keeps talking about doesn't even have to pay any fine at all. He doesn't come close to making enough for a fine. What made him (and Goddess) think he had to pay a fine at all? Just guessing or what?

 

According to three news articles I read from MSN he does.

Is there an article that you can point me to that says otherwise?

[KentuckyMMJ]

According to three news articles I read from MSN he does.

Is there an article that you can point me to that says otherwise?

You are correct.  He has one more day (although Obama said that if people were trying to sign up and were having trouble, they wouldn't be denied coverage if they were a few days late) to avoid the penalty for the 2014 tax year.  

 

However, he can not only avoid the penalty, he can get virtually free health insurance if he gets the right information quickly.

[KentuckyMMJ]

I can still do that.

Yes, you can.  If I was a healthy 20 something, I might do it too.  It's a gamble...but a small one at your age.

[KentuckyMMJ]

And west by god is also in the same shape (West Virginia )  i was taking to someone at a club meeting last week that had BCBS and he had his Hip replaced and it still cost him $8,000 dollars out of pocket for it

 

It's true.  Most Silver policies, which are the ones you have to select if you get a subsidy, have $5-$7K deductibles, plus "co-insurance", which is 20-30% of the bill off the top...not to mention $50 co-pays.  That leaves the insured with a pretty sizable bill considering that they also pay a monthly fee to be covered.  Most silver plans will cost people an insane 10k a year (on top of the monthly premium) if they actually need to use it.

 

The dirty secret about insurance in America is that most of the people who file bankruptcy because of medical bills have insurance and are middle class.  That situation won't change with the policies that are currently being offered at "affordable" prices.  The major benefit the ACA provides to the middle class is getting rid of the pre-existing condition exclusions, the life-time caps and denial to people with pre-existing conditions.  They will still have massive medical bills each year that they have a serious illness or require surgery.    

 

I'm one of them.  I've worked and paid taxes since I was 15 and carried the company health insurance since I got out of college.  I rarely was ill and didn't really benefit from the insurance much until I was 45 and diagnosed with cancer.  I had no idea that my health insurance required 30% co-insurance and had a $7,500 deductible.  My treatment spanned two Calendar years, so I had didn't hit the max out of pocket either year.  I stopped tallying up the bills when they hit $70k.  Some of those bills should have been paid by the insurance company but it's a full time job to get them to hold up their end of the deal.  I will be paying them off for the rest of my life but I am thankful to be alive.  People without insurance who show up in the ER with a lump under their arm wont get treatment at all.  So, when faced with the choice between financial ruin and a slow, painful death - it's not a hard one.  

 

I predict a shift of the working population to self-employment, part-time and cash work among people who want to qualify for subsidies or medicare.  The federal government is helping people below the $44k limit with their co-insurance, co-pays and rx drugs too but it's not clear how much help is available yet.  But, it's looking like at this time, people with medical needs will be better off to work part time during the years they have surgeries or major illnesses (or babies) than to make the median income ($51k for the household) and try to avoid collections/bankruptcy when the hospitals come after their assets.  

 

I think we will see people in their pre-retirement years take part time work or become self employed to protect their homes & retirement funds and qualify for subsidies.  In today's economy, that might be a good thing for younger people who are having trouble finding jobs...but it seems crazy for a government to provide incentive for people to work part time to avoid a medical bankruptcy. Employers probably hate it because talented, experienced people can leave more easily too...a lot of people between 40 & 60 were trapped in bad jobs because they needed insurance.  I plan to be one of them...working part time while I start up a small business that will supplement my income in retirement since my retirement savings were decimated by my medical bills.  

 

There is a lot of work to do to fix the health care system in the US - it will take decades.  It's just a start.

[+Malamute]

Thanks for the info Kentucky.

 

 But again, I don't know of one state that penalizes someone for owning a single home or land.  Those are federal guidelines. 1 house. 1 car. $2000 in cash/single person.  etc etc.

[+Malamute]

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/eligibility

 

 That is a link to SNAP(food stamp eligibility)

 

 It covers most the basics.

 

 SSI/Medicaid recipients is basically the same.

 

 I must say i forgot a car  varies state to state. But only 3 states try to dork ya over on a single car if it is worth too much.

 

"Currently 39 States exclude the value of all vehicles entirely. 11 States totally exclude the value of at least one vehicle per household. The 3 remaining states exempt an amount higher than the SNAP’s standard auto exemption (currently set at $4,650) from the fair market value to determine the countable resource value of a vehicle."

[GregS]

Yes you can do that permagnum. You simply pay the fine and move right along.

[outsideinthecold]

This has been a very thought provoking topic for consideration.

 

To this point no one has addressed the cost issues. The question remains. Who pays?

 

Further, could someone explain why anyone should pay for someone else's health care insurance?

 

Is health insurance a right? Is providing health insurance the responsibility of society?  

[Restorium2]

No one is saying that someone should be paying for anyone else's health insurance. What was said was that people shouldn't be paying for others' catastrophic health care costs (of the uninsured). The ACA is the first step to ending this by attempting to get more people insured.

 

I was mistaken in my earlier post about the poor dude not having to pay anything. I didn't realize it was the GREATER of the two, $95 or 1% of the taxable income.

 

One thing here that is baffling to me; Most folks that don't pay for insurance are reactionary, they just put things off until they have to do something. But for some reason they are being pro active about this fine. You would think they would just blow it off until they were actually fined, then complain. They are said to be complaining about a fine they didn't even get yet, proactively.

[Wild Bill]

Since it's opening day at Comerica Park let's talk about an unintended effect.

 

Employees at the park are no longer allowed to work at other Illitch venues like Joe Louis and the Fox Theatre because it might put them over 33 hours a week and they would have to be provided with insurance.

 

In the past they could work fifteen or twenty hours at each of the venues and they were treated like separate jobs. This changed with the Affordable Care Act.

 

Now they must be treated as one job so these part time minimum wage folks lose up to two thirds of their income in some cases.

 

Many that I've talked to worked at all the events they could since it was their only means of income.

 

So in addition to losing their income source they now have to pay for insurance out of what they have left.

 

On the bright side that means that more part time minimum wage jobs will be available so more people can make up to $75 or $80 dollars a week. I suppose in government circles  that means the economy is on the upswing.

[outsideinthecold]

Restorium wrote "No one is saying that someone should pay for anyone else's health insurance".

 

 

Actually isn't that exactly what is happening? What exactly are subsidies, anyway?

 

I was broke and homeless when I went to Alaska after I got out of the army in 1971. I met Ralph in Anchor Point. Ralph had two things most of us other vets didn't; a girlfriend and a car. His girlfriend wasn't much-skinny and a rough complexion she kinda reminded me of one of those plucked chickens common in early TV cartoons. But his car was a nearly new Toyota FJ40 Landcruiser. We didn't envy Ralph's girlfriend but man we lusted after his car

 

At first Ralph was pretty willing to give rides but demand soon overwhelmed his supply of good will. Soon enough a sign appeared on the dash. Cash or grass; no one rides for free.

 

That's the rub with O-care. It is not free. It is not funded. It is not affordable. Someone will pay. Or more likely all of us will.

 

There is a search ongoing in the southern Indian Ocean for a missing airliner. It is similar to an earlier Air France crash in the Atlantic Ocean. In the Air France crash the pitot tube failed and the instrumentation went crazy. The one reading that was correct was the unwinding altimeter as the plane fell five miles in a falling leaf stall. The pilots never even knew it but they were already dead even as they tried to figure out what had failed.

 

In my first post on this topic I asked how could we afford this program. I also mentioned our falling national per-capita net worth and the decline of the dollar. I won't bore anyone with an explanation of BIS outlook for the dollar as a reserve currency and what that impact would be like. I can only remind everyone that our government is only adding to the credit card balance and mortgaging our children's future. All the while I have this sinking feeling, confirmed by many of the posts I read here, it is already too late.

 

I think most of us know that intuitively. Even those who are compelled by their own belief system or self-interest to pretend otherwise.

Edited March 31, 2014 by outsideinthecold

[Restorium2]

The only way ACA is costing anything more than what preceded it would be because someone saw the doctor when they wouldn't have otherwise. To me, that might actually save us all money in the long run.

[KentuckyMMJ]

This has been a very thought provoking topic for consideration.

 

To this point no one has addressed the cost issues. The question remains. Who pays?

 

Further, could someone explain why anyone should pay for someone else's health care insurance?

 

Is health insurance a right? Is providing health insurance the responsibility of society?  

 

I don't think health insurance is a right...but I do think that, in the developed world, health care is a right to all citizens in every country (please correct me if I'm wrong) in the world.  Health care is as basic and food and shelter and not exactly a luxury item.  

 

I'd, personally, love to see the insurance companies excluded from the US Health Care system because Insurance seems to be the reason rates are as high as they are.  If we had all had to pay cash each time we needed medical care all along, it would never have gotten to the point where half of this countries citizens can't afford medical care.  

 

I think the question of "who pays?" is a forest/tree situation.  This is the first step in a long road of Health Care Reform.  The government is paying subsidies to get insurance companies to stop rejecting sick applicants and to limit how much profit they are allowed.  This is already controlling the rise in premiums.

 

At the other end, the government will now be paying for close to half of it's citizens medical care - directly or indirectly - between Medicare for retirees, the VA and Medicaid for people below 133% of poverty and subsidies for workers making up to $44k, which gives them control over how much doctors and hospitals get paid and what tests they run for which diseases.  

 

One of the biggest requirements of the ACA is the computerization of medical records so a patients tests at one facility aren't repeated at the next and so HHS can compare treatments to results and figure out what is and what isn't necessary.  Soon, patients will be able to log on to a web site to review all of their own medical records and to authorize other providers to see them.  Computerizing medical records is the first step in moving our medical providers away from "fee for service" (ie:  run all the tests you can on every patient you see to maximize your billing) to "evidence based medicine", which means that tests and treatments that have proven to have no effect on the patients outcome will no longer be reimbursed.  This will - over the course of years - push down per patient costs because unnecessary tests and treatments will also no longer be reimbursed by regular insurance companies as the HHS sets new standards.   

 

Lowering costs on the medical provider side will reduce premiums since insurance companies are limited as to how much profit they can keep.  So, over the coming decades, we will see premiums fall as fewer unnecessary services are provided to patients.  

So, in the end, the government saves money - especially in Medicare, which is ballooning as Baby Boomers retire.   And, more citizens get medical care (which should be a basic human right in a 1st world country...imho) at a lower cost while the government reduces it's Medicare costs.   Subsidies are really an investment by the government to take more control of the system that has really gotten completely out of control while being treated as just another for profit business.  

 

And, already the CBO is saying that Obamacare is saving/will save the government money.  8 billion is a lot of tax dollars.  

 

http://www.nationaljournal.com/health-care/that-obamacare-bailout-saves-taxpayers-8-billion-20140204  

[outsideinthecold]

I apologize but I didn't realize food and shelter were a right either.

 

I must have missed the line in the Constitution that read "life, liberty, food and shelter".

 

But then in my experience the Constitution is a flawed document. I was drafted just after Tet of '68 by the same US government that now mandates I buy health insurance for myself and pay taxes to pay for others. I fought in the II Corps Area of VN. At that point I wasn't really able to have either life of liberty that our country promised. 

 

Some might consider a poncho-liner and cold C-rations as food and shelter however.

 

Where does it stop? One poster on another topic suggested inflation was actually good for economic growth. Many learned left-leaning economists agree. The fundamental flaw in this view is it assumes the human race and associated economy have the potential for unlimited growth. That is simply impossible. At some point it must stop even if it would only be after all the mass of the know universe is composed of human flesh and blood.

 

Consider global warming-er-make that climate change. All the windmills, solar generation installations and bovine gas recycling the government subsides won't make a iota of difference. The only sure way to cut human influence of the environment in half is by halving the population.

 

Instead we have a government that is effecting the exact opposite. It's the one area of true bipartisan between parties with the Democrats social programs seemingly designed to create as many customers as possible for the Republican arrest and punishment industry.

Edited March 31, 2014 by outsideinthecold

[GregS]

I apologize but I didn't realize food and shelter were a right either.

 

I must have missed the line in the Constitution that read "life, liberty, food and shelter".

 

But then in my experience the Constitution is a flawed document. I was drafted just after Tet of '68 by the same US government that now mandates I buy health insurance for myself and pay taxes to pay for others. I fought in the II Corps Area of VN. At that point I wasn't really able to have either life of liberty that our country promised. 

 

Some might consider a poncho-liner and cold C-rations as food and shelter however.

 

Where does it stop? One poster on another topic suggested inflation was actually good for economic growth. Many learned left-leaning economists agree. The fundamental flaw in this view is it assumes the human race and associated economy have the potential for unlimited growth. That is simply impossible. At some point it must stop even if it would only be after all the mass of the know universe is composed of human flesh and blood.

 

Consider global warming-er-make that climate change. All the windmills, solar generation installations and bovine gas recycling the government subsides won't make a iota of difference. The only sure way to cut human influence of the environment in half is by halving the population.

 

Instead we have a government that is effecting the exact opposite. It's the one area of true bipartisan between parties with the Democrats social programs seemingly designed to create as many customers as possible for the Republican arrest and punishment industry.

That is off topic. Red herring is another way to describe it.

[GregS]

The ACA will succeed. We will no longer be held for ransom by the private sector, paying several magnitudes more for our health care while getting inferior results as compared with the rest of the civilized world. There is still plenty of room for improvement that will lower cost and improve accessibility for everyone, to include the poor and disadvantaged. It is constitutionally required that the government promote the general welfare.

Edited March 31, 2014 by GregS

[+Malamute]

Hmm, we have always paid for other peoples insurance and healthcare. It is like people have no idea how insurance and risk pools work, nor how healthcare was previously paid for.  The ACA was funded when passed otherwise the bluedog democrats would not have voted for it. It was a concession to make sure the bill was funded.  Uncompensated care costs were about 60billion+- a year.  That money now is going to help people buy health insurance every year . We also cut back on medicare plus insurance which privatized medicare and put the money back into government to be spent more wisely and effectively with a 10% reduction in overhead costs thus allowing more people to get health insurance.  I always wondered why people feel private insurance is more efficient when government run healthcare(VA, medicare, Medicaid etc) are run at about 10%+- less than private insurance companies. Take the profit out for the fat cat insurance companies and medical costs would drop 10% overnight. ;-)

[+Malamute]

• +.9% Increase in Medicare Tax Rate (plus next item…)  

3.8% New Tax on unearned income for high-income taxpayers= $210.2 billion ($200,000 for individual and $250,000 for joint filers) 

New Annual Fee on health insurance providers = $60 billion (For calculation - Sec 9010 (b) of the PPACA.)[1]

40% New Tax on health insurance policies which cost more than $10,200 for an individual or $27,500 for a family, per year = $32 billion (inland tax as opposed to an importation tax)

New Annual Fee on manufacturers and importers of branded drugs = $27 billion (For calculation - Sec 9008 (b) of the PPACA)[2]

2.3% New Tax on manufacturers and importers of certain medical devices = $20 billion

+2.5% Increase (7.5% to 10%) in the Adjusted Gross Income floor on medical expenses deduction = $15.2 billion

Limit annual contributions to $2,500 on flexible spending arrangements in cafeteria plans (plans that allow employees to choose between different types of benefits) = $13 billion

All other revenue sources = $14.9 billion

• 10% New Tax imposed on each individual for whom “indoor tanning services” are performed.

3.8% New Tax on investment income. Includes: gross income from interest, dividends, royalties, rents, and net capital gains. Investment income does not include interest on tax-exempt bonds, veterans’ benefits, excluded gain from the sale of a principle residence, distributions from retirement plans, or amounts subject to self-employment taxes. (The lesser of net investment income or the excess of modified Adjusted Gross Income over a the dollar amount at which the highest income tax bracket, typically $250,000 for married filing jointly and $200,000 filing as an individual).

[KentuckyMMJ]

I apologize but I didn't realize food and shelter were a right either.

 

I must have missed the line in the Constitution that read "life, liberty, food and shelter".

 

But then in my experience the Constitution is a flawed document. I was drafted just after Tet of '68 by the same US government that now mandates I buy health insurance for myself and pay taxes to pay for others. I fought in the II Corps Area of VN. At that point I wasn't really able to have either life of liberty that our country promised. 

 

Some might consider a poncho-liner and cold C-rations as food and shelter however.

 

Where does it stop? One poster on another topic suggested inflation was actually good for economic growth. Many learned left-leaning economists agree. The fundamental flaw in this view is it assumes the human race and associated economy have the potential for unlimited growth. That is simply impossible. At some point it must stop even if it would only be after all the mass of the know universe is composed of human flesh and blood.

 

Consider global warming-er-make that climate change. All the windmills, solar generation installations and bovine gas recycling the government subsides won't make a iota of difference. The only sure way to cut human influence of the environment in half is by halving the population.

 

Instead we have a government that is effecting the exact opposite. It's the one area of true bipartisan between parties with the Democrats social programs seemingly designed to create as many customers as possible for the Republican arrest and punishment industry.

I would like to thank you - belatedly - for your service....although Vietnam was a stupid war (not your fault).   War sucks and a draft makes it worse.  Probably is unconstitutional - but who really follows the Contitution?

 

But, as a Vet, don't you qualify for TriCare thru the VA?  I'd go that route if I were you....you earned it.

 

I don't worry about the government spending imaginary money on services for the citizens instead of wars.  You surely remember when Nixon cancelled the Gold Standard when other countries wanted to call their debt?  Now, they just print the stuff.  I'm sure China never really expects to be paid back but they enjoy the leverage they have over us to stimulate their own economy.

 

As for inflation, with only Trust backing the Dollar it's inevitable.  When they print more, the money in our pockets is devalued. But you know that.....when you got back from Vietnam, you could by a 6 pack for a buck.

 

Climate Change will cull the population......no question about that.  Water is already becoming a serious issue, food will be next.  

[beourbud]

The numbers are in , it's ObamaCare for the WIN!

 

Now to repeal Citizens United

Edited April 2, 2014 by beourbud

[+Malamute]

But I do remind people,... it is just insurance. Medical costs are still insanely high,.. care can be very mediocre,... it still costs ya money, many times money you don't have,... but it is a step in the right direction.  I will be and am among the first to say there are better ways to do this, but,... baby steps I guess.  :-)  Look how hard it was to just move forward this much.

 

 The citizens united issue around free speech and such is kinda more than just a legislative issue kinda. It is more a Constitutional/judicial ruling issue. Many issues surrounding campaign finance can be tightened up, but, the issue runs deeper and further into the "Rights" area and endless judicial precedence for corporate personhood.  And if you want to deal with corporate personhood, you have to get Presidents and Senates who are willing to put in Non-corporate judges.  Even Obama has shifted the Supreme Court toward Corporatism. I assume the next election will put in even a waaaaay more corporate beholden Judge to the Supreme Court regardless of who is voted in. Clinton= Corporate lackey. Bush=Corproate lackey and just about every other person for that matter. ;-)  It would likely take 30-40 years to put a dent into the Judicial interpretation of corporate personhood if things went our way completely against such over that time period.

 

 

How about gutting the Patriot Act or Neutering Military Commission Act overreaches?

 

;-)

[+Malamute]

Grow goddess:

 

 Keep me updated to your friends.  I may still be able to help with some direction if they run into issues.

[Highlander]

 subsidies?    they  do not pay upfornt  you have to wait until next tax season to get them,  I know many that just cannot afford to buy a  plan  and still buy food or pay rent or buy their medicine 

 

Solution:  ask your employer to withhold less tax from your regular paycheck in an amount equal to the tax refund you'd get at tax time divided by the number of checks you get in a year.

[Highlander]

Since it's opening day at Comerica Park let's talk about an unintended effect.

 

Employees at the park are no longer allowed to work at other Illitch venues like Joe Louis and the Fox Theatre because it might put them over 33 hours a week and they would have to be provided with insurance.

 

In the past they could work fifteen or twenty hours at each of the venues and they were treated like separate jobs. This changed with the Affordable Care Act.

 

Now they must be treated as one job so these part time minimum wage folks lose up to two thirds of their income in some cases.

 

Many that I've talked to worked at all the events they could since it was their only means of income.

 

So in addition to losing their income source they now have to pay for insurance out of what they have left.

 

On the bright side that means that more part time minimum wage jobs will be available so more people can make up to $75 or $80 dollars a week. I suppose in government circles  that means the economy is on the upswing.

 

If you couple this potential issue with Obama's hope to raise the federal minimum wage to $10.15, maybe the current administration's goals, as a comprehensive package, will allow for a better life for minimum wage workers.

[Restorium2]

Solution:  ask your employer to withhold less tax from your regular paycheck in an amount equal to the tax refund you'd get at tax time divided by the number of checks you get in a year.

Claim 9 exemptions, the maximum you can claim without getting in trouble with the IRS. If you know you are going to get it all back you are crazy not to. Uncle Sam and the IRS is not good to use as a savings account.