Obamacare

[Highlander]

We also need to remind ourselves that for many years if you had a pre-existing condition, no health insurance company would cover you for six months.  That's enough to either drive a person to financial failure, or death.

 

A person with cancer can sign up for coverage today and start treatment tomorrow.  This is a savings that I don't hear anyone talking about much.

[Restorium2]

Since it's opening day at Comerica Park let's talk about an unintended effect.

 

Employees at the park are no longer allowed to work at other Illitch venues like Joe Louis and the Fox Theatre because it might put them over 33 hours a week and they would have to be provided with insurance.

 

In the past they could work fifteen or twenty hours at each of the venues and they were treated like separate jobs. This changed with the Affordable Care Act.

 

Now they must be treated as one job so these part time minimum wage folks lose up to two thirds of their income in some cases.

 

Many that I've talked to worked at all the events they could since it was their only means of income.

 

So in addition to losing their income source they now have to pay for insurance out of what they have left.

 

On the bright side that means that more part time minimum wage jobs will be available so more people can make up to $75 or $80 dollars a week. I suppose in government circles  that means the economy is on the upswing.

Big business jerking their employees around so they don't have to pay insurance on them is not the fault of ObamaCare. It's a terrible practice that is very common these days. People overlook how bad it is because jobs are so precious after the recession. It's totally wrong to say that ObamaCare made them do it. They use every excuse in the book to screw their employees out of benefits.

[Highlander]

Big business jerking their employees around so they don't have to pay insurance on them is not the fault of ObamaCare. It's a terrible practice that is very common these days. People overlook how bad it is because jobs are so precious after the recession. It's totally wrong to say that ObamaCare made them do it. They use every excuse in the book to screw their employees out of benefits.

 

Yes - how true.  I have seen this sort of screwin' played out time and time again over the years.  A classic example is a business owner running a gas station or party store and paying himself and family members either in cash or as dividends so they can skip out on about 6% payroll taxes.

 

Also, how many people out there are actual employees as opposed to independent contractors but are still paid as an independent and issued a 1099, allowing the employer to skip the payroll tax and preventing the worker access to basic benefits. 

 

I knew a guy who detailed cars for a used car dealership.  He used the company's equipment and supplies, had set hours to work at the car lot, and was issued a 1099.  One day he burned his foot on the muffler of a steam cleaner/power washer.  He was a diabetic and ended up getting the foot amputated.  The State of Michigan workers' comp folks filed a suit against the owner of the dealership on the basis that the victim was actually an employee, and therefore the employer was responsible for workers' comp (which was never paid).  They won a $40,000 judgement.  The dealer ended up closing shop and skipping town.  Several of his employees filed unemployment claims, which were denied because they had been 1099'd rather than treated as actual employees - these uninformed and uneducated people never knew the difference until it was too late.

 

So yeah, it isn't ObamaCare that compels many businesses to treat workers poorly.  These businesses find any and every way they can to avoid paying for employee-related taxes/benefits.  This is nothing new.

[pergamum362]

Yah man, lets raise the minumum wage up 3 dollars or so. Thatll have no impact on the cost of everyday living.

[Wild Bill]

Yah man, lets raise the minumum wage up 3 dollars or so. Thatll have no impact on the cost of everyday living.

 

What about multi-million dollar CEO salaries? They couldn't possibly impact prices could they?

 

Why is it only the minimum wage that does that?

 

 

Since 1978, CEO pay at American firms has risen 725 percent, more than 127 times faster than worker pay over the same time period, according to new data from the Economic Policy Institute:

 

    From 1978 to 2011, CEO compensation increased more than 725 percent, a rise substantially greater than stock market growth and the painfully slow 5.7 percent growth in worker compensation over the same period.

 

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/05/03/475952/ceo-pay-faster-worker-pay/

[Highlander]

Yah man, lets raise the minumum wage up 3 dollars or so. Thatll have no impact on the cost of everyday living.

 

You have to evaluate the big picture.  The biggest cost impact as a result of raising minimum wage will be to large corporations.  A vast majority of the people in the US agree that we need to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor.  This requires redistribution of wealth.  How better to accomplish this than to put more money in the hands of  the people who need it and will spend it?  We have already seen that big corporations tend not to increase their own spending when given a tax break, etc.

 

Someone working 40 hours per week at $7.15 per hour with no dependents will take home about $226 per week.  Working 40 hours at $10 per hour nets about $316 per week.  That's $360 per month more in the pocket of someone working.  People in this wage group tend not to save.  They spend the disposable income on a better car, fast food, beer, furniture, road trips, electronics, and entertainment.  Back when my friends and I were working minimum wage jobs and the minimum jumped about 50 cents, that's what everyone I knew did.  They spent that extra money, putting it right back into the economy as consumer spending.  Consumer spending has been the cornerstone of the US economy (currently 70%) for decades.  So instead of this money being invested by corporations and executive in a house in France, a new plant in Mexico, world tours, yachts, private jets, or tucked away in an off-shore account where there is no benefit to the US economy, it is pumped right back into the economy, where the increased demand for consumer goods grows businesses, which creates jobs and allows for increased wages for the disappearing middle class.  So Exxon makes $4billion profit instead of $5billion.  Meanwhile the resulting increased consumer spending creates an increase in demand for middle class to minimum wage types of jobs.

 

Will prices rise?  Yes.  But that's inflation.  So maybe considering inflation, there is no actual increase in buying power for the minimum wage worker or someone in the middle class.  That's OK.  We still accomplish the much-needed redistribution of wealth.  Why do you think the wealthy people are the ones who are always freaking out about inflation?  Remember after Obama got elected and all of the conservative folks were predicting an inflation doomsday?  Rich people want middle and lower class folks to fear inflation.  Moderate inflation benefits poor people and the middle class.  Rich people hate it.  If I have $1,000,000 in the bank, after 4 years of a steady 2.5% inflation, my buying power dropped to about $900,000.  Meanwhile, the guy with a balance of $100,000 on his mortgage has an effective balance of $90,000 when you consider the change in buying power.

 

Maybe I tend to think that if a guy who makes $1,000,000 plus per year has one view on the economy, it is likely that his view favors what is in his best interest, at the expense of the working class and poor.  So maybe the opposite of what he wants is what is best for the middle class on down.  Trouble is, he has more money to influence policy than the rest of us....

[Herb Cannabis]

Yes - how true.  I have seen this sort of screwin' played out time and time again over the years.  A classic example is a business owner running a gas station or party store and paying himself and family members either in cash or as dividends so they can skip out on about 6% payroll taxes.

 

Also, how many people out there are actual employees as opposed to independent contractors but are still paid as an independent and issued a 1099, allowing the employer to skip the payroll tax and preventing the worker access to basic benefits. 

 

I knew a guy who detailed cars for a used car dealership.  He used the company's equipment and supplies, had set hours to work at the car lot, and was issued a 1099.  One day he burned his foot on the muffler of a steam cleaner/power washer.  He was a diabetic and ended up getting the foot amputated.  The State of Michigan workers' comp folks filed a suit against the owner of the dealership on the basis that the victim was actually an employee, and therefore the employer was responsible for workers' comp (which was never paid).  They won a $40,000 judgement.  The dealer ended up closing shop and skipping town.  Several of his employees filed unemployment claims, which were denied because they had been 1099'd rather than treated as actual employees - these uninformed and uneducated people never knew the difference until it was too late.

 

So yeah, it isn't ObamaCare that compels many businesses to treat workers poorly.  These businesses find any and every way they can to avoid paying for employee-related taxes/benefits.  This is nothing new.

 

"So yeah, it isn't ObamaCare that compels many businesses to treat workers poorly.  These businesses find any and every way they can to avoid paying for employee-related taxes/benefits.  This is nothing new."

 

I call it just being greedy.

[bobandtorey]

Yes - how true.  I have seen this sort of screwin' played out time and time again over the years.  A classic example is a business owner running a gas station or party store and paying himself and family members either in cash or as dividends so they can skip out on about 6% payroll taxes.

 

Also, how many people out there are actual employees as opposed to independent contractors but are still paid as an independent and issued a 1099, allowing the employer to skip the payroll tax and preventing the worker access to basic benefits. 

 

I knew a guy who detailed cars for a used car dealership.  He used the company's equipment and supplies, had set hours to work at the car lot, and was issued a 1099.  One day he burned his foot on the muffler of a steam cleaner/power washer.  He was a diabetic and ended up getting the foot amputated.  The State of Michigan workers' comp folks filed a suit against the owner of the dealership on the basis that the victim was actually an employee, and therefore the employer was responsible for workers' comp (which was never paid).  They won a $40,000 judgement.  The dealer ended up closing shop and skipping town.  Several of his employees filed unemployment claims, which were denied because they had been 1099'd rather than treated as actual employees - these uninformed and uneducated people never knew the difference until it was too late.

 

So yeah, it isn't ObamaCare that compels many businesses to treat workers poorly.  These businesses find any and every way they can to avoid paying for employee-related taxes/benefits.  This is nothing new.

$40,000 for a foot 

[edwardcejka]

Good Future Teen Rehab accepts many insurances and  treats teens from all parts of the USA at the center in Delray Fl.

[+greaterclare]

Well, it doesnt work for me. Im not disabled, dont qualify for medicaid and make more than 21k with no kids. I dont get subsidies. I have car payment, bike payment, mortgage, car/bike insurance, grocery bill, dte, phone bill. That extra mandatory bill takes away some of my cushion and im pissed.

I guess it's a matter of priorities. I think if I could afford a bike payment, then paying insurance shouldn't be a big deal. If I cant get health insurance, then a luxury like a motorcycle would not be on my list of monthly bills; but that's just me.

[grateful411]

I guess it's a matter of priorities. I think if I could afford a bike payment, then paying insurance shouldn't be a big deal. If I cant get health insurance, then a luxury like a motorcycle would not be on my list of monthly bills; but that's just me.

Yep bike and bike insurance, but f healthcare, PRIORITIES.

Edited September 23, 2014 by grateful411

[Habenero]

All interesting points being made here. Highlander pointed out that rich people fear inflation. True enough but don't forget that inflation drives down the value of the US dollar which means we screw ourselves as compared to the rest of the world. You think China owns us now? Show me sky high inflation and I'll show you a debt to the Chinese that we can never pay off.

[Habenero]

Also if the minimum wage goes up so will everyone's salaries to be competitive. Big corporations will find it harder and harder to compete with overseas markets and you'll again see big corps flee to mexico.

 

I don't have a solution, jus sayin'

[Wild Bill]

Why is it when minimum wage employees get a raise it drives up inflation, but when a CEO gets a raise that is more than 200 times what those minimum wage folks make it never causes a problem?

[Habenero]

Because if you pooled all the money made by minimum wage workers it dwarfs the total amount that all CEOs make. It's like thinking that dropping one subsidy from pork barrel spending will make a dent in the budget.

[Wild Bill]

Here's the average for Michigan;

 

$40,898 Average Worker's Pay

$5,609,171 Average CEO Pay

PAY RATIOS

CEO to Average Worker:

137:1

CEO to Living Wage:

173:1

CEO to Minimum Wage:

364:1

 

The current figure they are asking for as a minimum wage increase is based on inflation since 1968.

 

If the minimum wage would have kept up with productivity and the income gains of the top 1% since 1968, it would be $18.30 and $31.45, respectively.

 

http://www.aflcio.org/Corporate-Watch/Paywatch-2014

 

Inflation and national debt is built into the Federal Reserve system and it's use of fiat currency. It will soon tumble down like the house of cards that it is.

[Habenero]

I usually like your posts wild bill but your stats are all wrong. Where you you come up with an average ceo pay of over 5 mil? Ut uh. You know how many small businesses are in Michigan and you know how many "ceo" positions there are? None of that adds up. What's your source? Not buyin it.

[imiubu]

I read that the raise in minimum wage effects 4% of Michigan workers.

I am not an econ major but as I understand how this works is...

4% of the working force got a raise and this leads to 100% rise

in costs in all consumer wares for all consumers.

 

Someone who knows econ can pipe in and correct this if I am wrong

[Habenero]

Most "CEOs" are from small businesses that have maybe 2 or 3 employees. A little flower shop, the guy who engraves trophies, a lawn mowing business. That's why the minimum wage to ceo ratio is as it is.

 

Imiubu raising the min wage leads to raising all salaries in the long term. If it were $10 per hour then the x-ray tech who makes $12.50 would expect more money so there's more of a gap between educated and non-educated workers. Same with the dental hygienist, etc. Then you raise the x-ray tech's salary and the guy on the next rung is miffed. It's a domino effect. Eventually everyone gets more which raises inflation. So bread then costs 125% of what it did 3 years before that. So you pay more for consumer goods. In the end the pay raise was useless because you have the same buying power you did in the beginning.

[imiubu]

Thanks hot stuff

[Habenero]

:rolleyes:Who me?

I hear you're a hottie!

[Wild Bill]

Most "CEOs" are from small businesses that have maybe 2 or 3 employees.

 

I don't believe I have ever heard of a business that small having a Chief Executive Officer. By being a "chief" officer that would imply other subordinate executive officers. Unless the other two employees are also top level management.

 

While an owner of a sole proprietorship can give himself the title of CEO, the generally accepted definition is;

 

 

chief executive officer

 

A chief executive officer (CEO) is generally the most senior corporate officer (executive) or administrator in charge of managing a for-profit or non-profit organization. An individual appointed as a CEO of a corporation, company, nonprofit, or government agency typically reports to the board of directors.

 

Nevertheless the common usage as head of a major corporation is the working definition for these statistics.

 

As far as raising all salaries, that is the whole point. As the money becomes more and more worthless why should it only be the privileged few who are able to keep up with inflation? The situation we have now is that the few not only keep up with inflation but actually rise above it at the expense of the majority whose wages steadily drop in relation to the price increases.

[Habenero]

If you incorporate your business then you have a CEO regardless of whether you have 10 other board members. That's the way it works. Remember how joe cain would call himself the CEO of the 3ma? If you incorporate you have to have a corporate structure even if you on have yourself and 2 minions mowing lawns.

 

Raising the minimum wage will be the cause of mass inflation so your idea that you need to keep up with inflation by raising the minimum wage is counterintuitive. I'm not very bright but I know that.

 

The average CEO salary in Michigan is NOT over 5 million dollars. Based on your worker to CEO stats Oakland county alone would have 4300 CEOs. That's just Oakland county which has 588,572 people working. 4300 CEOs in Oakland county making almost 6 million dollars a year each? Uh, no. I doubt that. Are there even that many corporations in the county that are worth a million? Not likely.

[Wild Bill]

Joe Cain might not be the best example to use. Anyone can say they're the Queen of England but that doesn't make it so. The statistics are speaking about legitimate CEO's of major corporations, not Fred Sanford claiming to be CEO of a recycling concern.

 

Nor do I advocate increasing anyone's wages per se. I'm advocating adjusting wages across the board and not giving the top 1% a 700% increase and letting everyone else get a 10% cut in buying power. This will of course not do the economy any good whatsoever but at least the minimum wage workers will still be able to afford the burgers they flip.

 

My ideal solution would be to go back on the gold standard so the money would actually have real value based on a commodity, not a paper IOU printed by a bank that has nothing to back it up except the government declaring it is real money.

 

Where did you come up with the 4300 CEO figure?

[+Malamute]

Inflation actually makes paying our debts easier.