Ripper Gets Shot In Battle Creek

[+420Atheist]

Is a shotgun a good home defense weapon in the opinion of those in the know? I heard it is good because the sound of the barrel being cocked scares the crap out of people.

 

I like a shotgun. Good because they don't penetrate through walls as bad and even when you are scared you can still hit your target. Plus they are the only good firearm against zombies.

[The Digital Nomad]

This is going to be tricky -

you will have the same reaction time in either a home invasion or police raid to decide to arm yourself and shoot first (or you'll wait til they level their gun on you first?). Remember this is going to happen at 4- 5am in the morning, not after your wake and bake.

 

Besides off-site webcam protection, you do have other non-lethal choices. You could build a safe room, a room with a phone, sturdy door and lock. You could build an 'emergency exit'. You can go as far as building a man trap, make the grow room a trap for intruders. They do make OC/CS gas trip flares (shomer-tec.com - might be catalog version) - the spring rigged booby trap dispenses a OC pepper gas when tripped - that will make it hard to stick around.

 

The point is, lets think this smarter - the answer might not be guns - guns could be just the reason the police 'need to continue SWAT style raids'. Lets prove we don't need guns, or the police...

 

For zombie attacks - always - the Dillon Aerospace M134D....

 

Happy New Year!

DN

[Phil78]

Something is odd about that story though. A .223 is what is used in the M16/AR15 assault rifle. There are very few handguns that will fire it and I don't know any semi autos that will. Also this guy may have a problem. It says he took the gun away from the robber then went and got his gun and shot him. How was his life threatened once he had the bad guys gun? We either have not heard this whole story or the story is not very accurate.

 

The bigger picture is this is going to give people ammunition to change the law.

 

 

http://www.impactguns.com/store/640832000375.html

 

 

also, i'm guessing the story is messed up. if he disarmed the ripper, had his weapon, why did he need to go get his own gun? he had the rippers

[herbnurse]

Yeah first off if you disarm someone you no longer need to shoot them. When police raid you they will have uniforms on and will identify themselves and have a warrent. Sure someone could say police when they break in and maybe have even a uniform but i think it will be pretty obvious whos breaking into your house. Swat team vs guys in masks lol

[Phil78]

it doesn't say that the people left. so, after taking the gun away, the other 2 were still in there (it says they very may well have been armed, also).

 

did he take the gun away from edger and lose it in the struggle?

 

it almost sounds like the guy had a 2-dollar pistol with obliterated numbers that he was pinning on edger, in addition to his girlfriend's gun. maybe he was going to use his $2 and edger took it from him in the struggle, then he obtained his old lady's gun and used it. edger has been in jail for weapons charges before, so it would not be unbelievable that he would have a shoot-and-throw, either.

 

that's totally speculation. trying to decide whether the new's story or the victim's story is screwy.

[Kingdiamond]

Lets not fret about whos gun it was or wasnt that paints this victim in a bad light he was almost robbed by these thiefs good for him for pumping bullets into the ripper .

 

EXAMPLE

[1082]

Yeah first off if you disarm someone you no longer need to shoot them. When police raid you they will have uniforms on and will identify themselves and have a warrent. Sure someone could say police when they break in and maybe have even a uniform but i think it will be pretty obvious whos breaking into your house. Swat team vs guys in masks lol

 

 

Swat thugs wear masks too. If I was going to break into a house I would absolutely be yelling "POLICE, GET ON THE FLOOR!". Who wouldn't? Bet most couldn't tell the difference.

[herbnurse]

If you got a whole team of masked men with automatic weapons you might as well leave your weapon where it is.

[peanutbutter]

For those in law enforcement paying any attention.

 

This is a serious problem. As more of our community perceive themselves to be completely law abiding citizens, the larger numbers of people will arm themselves. Not because of police but because of thieves.

 

The tactic of a smashing entry into a marijuana location elevates the danger to everyone in the process.

 

Grower, officer and bystander.

 

Lawful, armed growers need some method to make a instant decision when their doors are kicked in.

 

I would suggest that the lights and sirens get turned on at the moment a door is kicked in as a effort to prevent bad identification shootings.

 

I would also suggest other methods of doing a search of a marijuana grow. Those plants simply aren't moving that fast.

[smokeythebear]

the AR-15 comes in a pistol style, short barrel and no stock just a tube for the spring. not sure why someone would want it for a home security gun. 12 gauge pump as mentioned above, the "chik-chik" will make a person retreat. if not and you have to shoot the 00 buck shot wont go threw a bunch of walls or in the .233 rounds case a few houses and hit people sleeping in bed or watching tv.

 

 

as for the getting the gun and still shooting the person. I bet this all went down in a matter of seconds and the guy was doing what ever he could to save his family and that in Michigan is LEGAL. his girlfriend could have brought him the gun during the fight. real life stuff is not like the movies.

 

 

 

if someone kicks in your door in this great state you can blast away, see even if you take there gun who is to say they dont have a knife or a back up gun? no time to find out there the jack azz that kicked in the door if they will do that how to you know what they will do next? take one of them out the rest will run. how do ya know one of them aint raping your wife in the back room? there was just a national story about two guys who did that and killed most the family and burned there house down. that started as just a robbery. the bad guys said in court the cops were to blame cause they didn't get there in time! I'd rather them dead then my family.

 

sounds like some folks are sticking up for the robbers?

 

 

Michigan’s Castle Doctrine Law MCL 780.951 (Public Act 311 of 2006)

 

 

 

“(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), it is a rebuttable presumption in a civil or criminal case that an individual who uses deadly force or force other than deadly force under section 2 of the self-defense act has an honest and reasonable belief that imminent death of, sexual assault of, or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another individual will occur if both of the following apply:

 

(a) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling or business premises or committing home invasion or has broken and entered a dwelling or business premises or committed home invasion and is still present in the dwelling or business premises, or is unlawfully attempting to remove another individual from a dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle against his or her will.

 

(b) The individual using deadly force or force other than deadly force honestly and reasonably believes that the individual is engaging in conduct described in subdivision (a).”

 

The basic rule on use of force in self-defense is that the force must be proportional to the threat.

 

Essentially, deadly force is only authorized in self-defense when preventing: great bodily harm that could lead death, death, or rape (known modernly in Miichigan as sexual assault.) The individual using deadly force in legitimate self defense must have an actual belief that he is preventing one of those three things, and that belief has to be reasonable under all the circumstances. In other words, a jury would have to agree that, if they were in the same situation, they would share that same belief that great bodily harm, death, or sexual assault were about to occur.

 

Prior to enactment of this law, which became effective as of October 1, 2006, there was a possibility that a homeowner who used deadly force in defense would have found himself charged criminally or sued by the intruder, or the intruder’s family. This is because deadly force is NEVER appropriate when defending property. In other words, it could have been argued that the intruder perhaps meant only to commit a property crime and, therefore, deadly force was not proportionate. This is still possible under the current law. An individual who breaks in to one of the places listed above may not present a deadly threat and it is possible that in some circumstances, use of deadly force may be still considered disproportionate. However, the presumption is that someone who breaks into a home or business, or who attempts to drag a motorist from a car, does mean to do something that calls for deadly force in self defense.

 

This statute gives the benefit of the doubt to the home or business owner or motorist. However, it is not a blanket license to kill. Remember that a firearm is always considered deadly force and use your guns wisely, judiciously and effectively. The presumption raised by this statutes is rebuttable. Meaning, that a bloodthirsty or negligent individual who shoots at someone who is found to have been clearly not a threat, may still run afoul of the law.

 

As a practical matter, I always recommend caution and shooting only as a last resort. However, as a result of this statute, which was introduced and supported by members of your MCRGO leadhership, if someone kicks your front door down at 3:00 a.m., you no longer have to hesitate before defending yourself and your family. This bill essentially codified common sense in that most people know that someone who would do such a thing is probably a dangerous person intent on harming others. The burden of proof is now on the intruder to prove that there is no way that the homeowner, business owner, or motorist could have felt seriously threatened.

 

The presumption DOES NOT APPLY if:

 

“(a) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used, including an owner, lessee, or titleholder, has the legal right to be in the dwelling, business premises, or vehicle and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order, a probation order, or a parole order of no contact against that person.

 

(b) The individual removed or being removed from the dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle is a child or grandchild of, or is otherwise in the lawful custody of or under the lawful guardianship of, the individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used.

 

© The individual who uses deadly force or force other than deadly force is engaged in the commission of a crime or is using the dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle to further the commission of a crime.

 

(d) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is a peace officer who has entered or is attempting to enter a dwelling, business premises, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties in accordance with applicable law.

 

(e) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is the spouse or former spouse of the individual using deadly force or force other than deadly force, an individual with whom the individual using deadly force or other than deadly force has or had a dating relationship, an individual with whom the individual using deadly force or other than deadly force has had a child in common, or a resident or former resident of his or her household, and the individual using deadly force or other than deadly force has a prior history of domestic violence as the aggressor.”

 

So, the presumption only applies to those with “clean hands.” The rule is meant to protect innocent citizens who are forced to defend themselves.

[Dubliner]

Probably the Best Home Self Defence weapon is a 4-10 Shotgun or the New 4-10 Taurus Pistol that will fire a 2 1/2 inch 4-10 shotgun round or the Old 45 Cowboy round & hold 5 rounds ,

 

The 4-10 shell has a Tight Controlled shot pattern for the prevention of Overshot of the flying lead . It carries good stopping power and is easy to control even for a woman and will Surely leave a DNA Trail of the Bad Guy/Guy's .

 

Another Great choice is to get Several can's of Wasp & Hornet Killer spray from the Dollar Store , The kind that shoots a steady single stream of spray for up too 20 feet . Place these Strategically around yer house away from the reach of Children and use them when & if needed to thwart off an intruder . This will work as a Tear-Gas when sprayed in an intruders face , If & When this choice is made make sure to spray the Intruder/Intruders in the Eye's , Nose & Mouth until Immobilized and then disarm them if given the Safe Opportunity . This is a Non Lethal choice of Home Self Defense compared to the 4-10 approach .

 

With Any Home Self Defense choice make damnn Certain You feel the Threat of Imminent Danger before you React and I Recommend You make Sure you call 911 & report the Home Invasion ASAP . Think , Look & Listen before reacting . Stay Smart & Stay Safe ,,,

[Guest Happy Guy]

We need the civilian version of the AA-12. Hands down, the most powerful urban warfare weapon in the WORLD!

[+420Atheist]

http://www.impactguns.com/store/640832000375.html

 

 

also, i'm guessing the story is messed up. if he disarmed the ripper, had his weapon, why did he need to go get his own gun? he had the rippers

 

I had not seen this Keltec. I had seen some AR15 mods that made them into pistols but I was never sure about the legality of those. Still I expect those are pretty rare though maybe not at that low price. There are other .223 cal pistols like the Thompson Center Contender has a .223 barrel available for it. But I kind of rejected that idea just because I did not think it was likely.

 

I guess it could have been a .223 pistol. I would think the cops would have spun the story and called it an assault rifle if it had been something like that.

 

BTW for those reading this a .223 makes for a bad home protection weapon because of how much penetration that bullet has. You don't want it to travel through the bad guy and through the wall and kill someone else. Think big and slow moving rounds for home protection.

[+420Atheist]

If you got a whole team of masked men with automatic weapons you might as well leave your weapon where it is.

 

+1 That is the other weird part of the story. He fought with one. Where were the other two that they did not help their friend? He then went and got another gun. Why did he not use the one he took from the first guy? Why take the time to get another gun?

 

On the other hand we do need to be careful because there may be good explanations for all that. Because he was not arrested on the spot there must be some good explanations that were not reported. One thing they told us in the CCW class was if you shoot someone even in your own house expect to be arrested until it is sorted out.

[GanjaWarrior]

I cant own a gun.....I can and do own 2 machetes. Id hate to be shot.... but just imagine the defensive wounds from a machete. Dont need to say much more. Property is something we have a right to defend. Need help ask, I love to help, but if you are getting greedy, rob a casino, they dont have a fire pit as big as mine.

 

 

 

For those that can own a gun, a 45 will stop em, and a shot gun.... doesnt get ne better when it comes to home defense.

[peanutbutter]

I cant own a gun.....I can and do own 2 machetes. Id hate to be shot.... but just imagine the defensive wounds from a machete. Dont need to say much more. Property is something we have a right to defend. Need help ask, I love to help, but if you are getting greedy, rob a casino, they dont have a fire pit as big as mine.

 

Cans of wasp spray. Aim for the eyes.

[Homes Labs]

Your weapon doesn't have to be used for lethal intent. Get to know your equipment and practice with it...what the point of having a pump shotgun if you cant rack it fast enough and hit what your aiming at?

[Homes Labs]

 

Another Great choice is to get Several can's of Wasp & Hornet Killer spray from the Dollar Store , The kind that shoots a steady single stream of spray for up too 20 feet . Place these Strategically around yer house away from the reach of Children and use them when & if needed to thwart off an intruder . This will work as a Tear-Gas when sprayed in an intruders face , If & When this choice is made make sure to spray the Intruder/Intruders in the Eye's , Nose & Mouth until Immobilized and then disarm them if given the Safe Opportunity . This is a Non Lethal choice of Home Self Defense compared to the 4-10 approach .

 

 

This is a great idea!!!

[welj31]

" You are allowed to shoot on sight if someone enters your home in Michigan."

Where could I find this info?

[welj31]

There are always a lot of ways to deal with them after they get in. On the other hand you may want to prevent them from getting in in the first place.

an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure

[Mememe]

http://www.afpmb.org/pubs/standardlists/msds/6840-01-278-1336_msds.pdf

 

DOD bug spray has an HMIS rating for personal protection.

[thanks2]

Where could I find this info?

It is presumed that if someone is doing a home invasion that they intend to commit an act that justifies lethal force to protect ones self.

 

MCL 780.951 (Public Act 311 of 2006) states:

 

“(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), it is a rebuttable presumption in a civil or criminal case that an individual who uses deadly force or force other than deadly force under section 2 of the self-defense act has an honest and reasonable belief that imminent death of, sexual assault of, or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another individual will occur if both of the following apply:

 

(a) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling or business premises or committing home invasion or has broken and entered a dwelling or business premises or committed home invasion and is still present in the dwelling or business premises, or is unlawfully attempting to remove another individual from a dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle against his or her will.

 

(b) The individual using deadly force or force other than deadly force honestly and reasonably believes that the individual is engaging in conduct described in subdivision (a).”

[+420Atheist]

If you have a firearm and you have to shoot someone in self defense the first and only words out of your mouth to the cops should be "I was afraid for my life. I was sure he was going to kill me. I want my lawyer."

[Nemosity]

If you want to protect your home, do some research, take some self defense classes that will suit you. Whether you want to kung-fu someone right through your wall, or be able to call your pals, Bruiser and Glutton, your canine companions to fend off predatory acts against your home. Read, learn, and be safe. Especially if your going to go the route of having firearms, for the sake of everyone, know what you are doing, be safe, learn from a professional, your life may depend it.

[pic book]

Peatnut butter: wasp spray. You come up with great ones!