Patient To Patient Transfers?

[Spartyon]

Answer this question please if I advertise that i have overages on here then the thread is locked but i can advertise seeds on here no problem? not that i ever would just hypothetical. I dont understand why the latter is ok.

[Beans]

Answer this question please if I advertise that i have overages on here then the thread is locked but i can advertise seeds on here no problem? not that i ever would just hypothetical. I dont understand why the latter is ok.

 

Great question

 

I would like to hear the answer also

 

If advertising seeds at dispensaries is allowed here

 

What about clones at dispensaries?

Edited July 5, 2012 by Beans

[JohnnyC]

not a suggestion was only just a question sorry in my own piece of mind some of the comments i read that's how i took it. sorry for asking. why so serious if just a question. wasn't calling him nor anyone out.

[JohnnyC]

as far as the other postings we are all starting to understand. yes you can possess MMJ. but you cant buy it. nor buy seeds. nor buy clones.nor sell any of the following. even if we all read the law as the aqquisition ,transfer,delivery,cultivation,transportation is legal. NO NOTHING ABOUT GETTING OR GIVING IT IS LEGAL unless you have a caregiver. but you can possess it and also possess plants but the getting of plants or meds are illegal in this STATE.

[Restorium2]

It's not the 'buying' part that is illegal. It's the 'selling' part that will get you into trouble. Selling it in public will definitely get you caught. Selling it at a store is insane, in my opinion. Literally insane. The definition of insanity is doing something where you know the outcome because you have seen it again and again, but expecting a different result anyway.

[GanjaWarrior]

i dont see seeds on any list? have a link? where and how are they illegal?

[Spartyon]

Seems to me like different rules for different folks, if i where to have started a thread hocking my wheres i believe it would of been locked almost instantly. Mods and mr k need to get on the same page here. Nothing personal here but if it smells like a duck walks like a duck and quacks like one, most likey that what it is. Nothing unambigeous about ptp transfers for renemuration with seeds either ya nor na cant have it both ways. Hope i dont ruffle to many feather here i call it like i see it.

[Croppled1]

"I also believe there will be more folks that won't renew their cards and I have spoken with a few" P.P.

 

It is sad but people are starting to notice the penalties being enforced against caregivers and patients are often higher then non qualifying Citizens . When we notice them we should write them down somewhere in a thread under problems with the Act that need addressing perhaps ?

Edited July 5, 2012 by Croppled1

[CaveatLector]

i dont see seeds on any list? have a link? where and how are they illegal?

Seeds are illegal under the CSA.

[Celliach]

Seeds are illegal under the CSA.

....and only "incidental" seeds are protected under the MMMA. Seeds that have been separated and packaged, aren't incidental.

[GanjaWarrior]

....and only "incidental" seeds are protected under the MMMA. Seeds that have been separated and packaged, aren't incidental.

 

is that your opinion? or do you know that to be in the law.... you dont have to answer...i know thats not in the law.

[Celliach]

is that your opinion? or do you know that to be in the law.... you dont have to answer...i know thats not in the law.

 

Yes it is:

Section 4a(1) "any incidental amount of seeds, stalks, and unusable roots."

 

 

 

 

in·ci·den·tal/ˌinsiˈdentl/

 

 

Adjective: Accompanying but not a major part of something: "incidental expenses". Noun: An incidental detail, expense, etc: "meals, taxis, and other incidentals". Synonyms: accidental - adventitious - casual - fortuitous - random

[GanjaWarrior]

Yes it is:

Section 4a(1) "any incidental amount of seeds, stalks, and unusable roots."

 

 

 

 

in·ci·den·tal/ˌinsiˈdentl/

 

 

Adjective: Accompanying but not a major part of something: "incidental expenses". Noun: An incidental detail, expense, etc: "meals, taxis, and other incidentals". Synonyms: accidental - adventitious - casual - fortuitous - random

 

 

So it is just your opinion...no one in the world could argue 12 seeds being anything else..

[Celliach]

So it is just your opinion...no one in the world could argue 12 seeds being anything else..

You could if they weren't "incidental." By separating them, and packaging them and transferring them outside of MMJ, they aren't incidental anymore. That's what incidental means. That's why I put up it's definition. Did you read and understand it?

 

Also, something many of you keep failing to realize is that we have a hostile environment in which to deal with this. The vast majority of LEO does not agree with the MMMA, the court system hasn't been our friend for the most part also. Any risks you take, are just that, risks. I'm not saying you can't do it. I'm trying to inform you of the risks of doing it. I can also say that I have yet to hear of anyone being arrested for transferring seeds, either for free or with compensation. I would equate it to going 58 to 60 mph in a 55 mph zone. You're probably never going to get in trouble for it, but the risk is there.

[CaveatLector]

So it is just your opinion...no one in the world could argue 12 seeds being anything else..

Celliach is correct. The CSA makes seed possession illegal. The MMA explicitly makes "incidental" seeds okay to possess. No where in the MMA are seeds allowed other than if they are incidental. If 12 seeds are packaged together they are no longer incidental as they become their own "something" whereas seeds that are part of a waste pile (eg: stalks and roots) are incidental to that waste pile as they are accompanying the waste. That's pretty darn clear cut. It is also a very good example of how the law was poorly drafted. As Celliach said, you probably aren't likely to get trouble but the potential IS there. I would guess that it is especially there for those who sell a lot of seeds. Like all things mm, the people who stick their necks out will be the people to be most likely to fall.

[Dr. Bob]

Yes it is:

Section 4a(1) "any incidental amount of seeds, stalks, and unusable roots."

 

 

 

 

in·ci·den·tal/ˌinsiˈdentl/

 

 

Adjective: Accompanying but not a major part of something: "incidental expenses". Noun: An incidental detail, expense, etc: "meals, taxis, and other incidentals". Synonyms: accidental - adventitious - casual - fortuitous - random

 

LOL..... yep we have some real experts in the letter of the law in here.... seeds aren't addressed///// thanks for the laugh.

[Dr. Bob]

Incidental seeds pretty much implies trimmings pending disposal, like leaves and stems, which is what the sentence is actually talkiing about. Do you honestly think you can take a part of the law dealing with trimmings and use it to try and justify selling seeds? How does the CSA play in to that, not to mention the Michigan health code? GW, why don't you carefully explain the legal basis of your opinion about selling seeds commercially under this section? We would be willing to listen I am sure if you will clearly explain it and accept a response from well qualified folks like CL......

 

Dr. Bob

[tricloud]

OK folks have it your way.........

 

From now on only info will be under wraps until I get my own forum..................

 

PM Me if you can't find the answer to your question at my site.......

[Celliach]

Michigan Free Seeds and Clones

[GanjaWarrior]

Incidental seeds pretty much implies trimmings pending disposal, like leaves and stems, which is what the sentence is actually talkiing about. Do you honestly think you can take a part of the law dealing with trimmings and use it to try and justify selling seeds? How does the CSA play in to that, not to mention the Michigan health code? GW, why don't you carefully explain the legal basis of your opinion about selling seeds commercially under this section? We would be willing to listen I am sure if you will clearly explain it and accept a response from well qualified folks like CL......

 

Dr. Bob

 

bob what is it with you always argueing afainst something i never said

It seems to me that anything other than incidental seeds would just be considered marijuana according to the definition in the Act, which points to the PHC for the definition, which includes seeds. Therefore, seeds that are not considered incidental would be counted in allowed weights, rather than not allowed or covered at all. There is no reason to think that seed possession and transfers are any different than plant or flower possession and transfers, unless they are "not a major part" of the weight.

 

And Dr. Bob, you are getting out of your element again. Saying that "any incidental amount of seeds, stalks, and unusable roots." is equivalent to "trimmings," whatever that is, doesn't make any sense at all.

 

thank you

[GanjaWarrior]

Edited July 5, 2012 by GanjaWarrior

[Dr. Bob]

You tell me what the section means then? What are incident stems, seeds and roots? Please explain Zap? Cel? CL? GW? you guys know more than I do about this, so just explain it to me. I'd like to learn about it.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

Seeds are defined in the PHC as marijuana, which is the definition referred to by section 3 of the Act. It goes in section 4 to describe a loophole for "incidental" seeds, stems, and roots, to allow them not to be counted towards allowed weights.

 

Transfers of seeds are transfers of marijuana according to our Act, and the PHC.

 

Ok, I am following you. So what is the usable part of the plant then? What counts toward the 2.5 oz of 'usable' marijuana? Can I possess 20# of stems, leaves, and seeds and use them for say, baking? Can I collect 100 pounds of leaves and make oil out of them?

 

The basis for my 'trimmings' statement is that, according to my limited understanding of the processing of MJ, there are usable parts of a plant, and parts that are removed, and that both add up to the total weight of the plant. Only the usable parts are weighted, and the unusable parts are not. Seeds, stems and roots are not weighed, therefore must be considered 'unusable parts' of the plant, or the stuff that is trimmed off.

 

I'm not an expert in the use and preparation of medical marijuana. I am just an example of an educated potential juror looking at the act and trying to figure out what the heck a seed is. Or a stem. So jump down my throat about it if you want, but remember it is people like me that will be judging you in court. So you had better be able to convince me that the law wanted you to be able to sell/trade/give away seeds if you want to go home.

 

Now perhaps you can see the discussion that needs to take place, not 'you are out of your wheel house there captain.'.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

By the way, Sept 19th, 2010.....

 

 

Posted 19 September 2010 - 03:20 PM

After careful discussions with my attorney and others, I have decided that the following will be the policy of Dr. Bob and the Certification Crew in light of the Redden decision.

 

1. I will continue to perform single visit certifications, just as Aviation Medical Examiners, Disability Examiners for the VA and other agencies, and many specialist consultations. This is both appropriate and legal and results in a defensible certification.

 

2. I will recommend a method of use and a maximum amount per week, titrated to effect of marijuana to use. This is exactly like my recommendations for over the counter medications. It is also in line with the Michigan Medical Association's position on medical marijuana.

 

3. A physical exam, along with sufficient documentation from the patient's treating physicians, will be used to determine eligibility. So will a history of missed work, school, daily medication use, etc which will be used to determine if the condition is 'debilitating'.

 

4. I will be available for follow up questions, either at the number noted on the application form as my contact number, the address, or my website www.drbobmmj.com. When seen for a certification appointment, patients sign a release noting that their regular treating physician is responsible for follow up. If they do not have one, they are required to obtain one within 30 days.

 

5. All patients under the age of 30 will be certified only in the case of significant evidence of a disabling chronic disease.

 

 

Dr. Bob

 

Sound like I was that far off the base? I was basically shouted down by the 'according to my opinion, based on this case, that case, and my own interpretation of the act, they can't require that'. Still think I have no understanding?

[Murph]

I have to jump in here after some time --

 

Sorry Dr. Bob, but taking Legal advice from a Doctor is about as silly (or stupid) as letting a Lawyer treat your medical conditions or operate on you. Having said that much of what He posted seems reasonable BUT the area of Statutory Construction (e.g. interpreting Statutes or Laws TEXT) is complex. It often comes down to (in Michigan lately) the political objective of the Jurist (if you can call them that) rather that an Honest Legal Opinion --

 

Sadly, politics has invaded the medical marijuana Initiative since day one.

 

Back to the issue: Statutory Construction is complex, and an area of the law rife with exceptions, exclusions and addendums so one must know their case law going back decades (not something a Doctor, or a layperson does) - simple reading of the statute's text is not enough.

 

Adding the dictionary definition is not enough.

 

One must know case law and that is not something I will take ANY Doctors, or persons word on ...indeed not even most Attorneys. It needs someone who does legal research and writing daily, such as appellate Attorneys.

 

The bottom line is CAUTION is the best plan now days as (most, hopefully not all) of the Court of Appeals Judges' clearly are hell-bent on limiting the law to destroy it or limit it (even if it comes with absurd results). Seeds are a good example.

 

The Good News is that it appears the Sup Crt. Justices are applying the law as written and as Intended --- the law is intended to facilitate use and distribution of medical marijuana. Patients are supposed to have the protections of both sections 4 and section 8 -- and possibly at the same time. As the SupCrt said, Sect. 4 has broad immunity from arrest if they have no more than 2.5 OZ usable MJ (which has seeds in in incidentally) and 12 plants under locked enclosed facility. That is the bottom line and I trust any person who adheres to this is well protected as immunity FROM arrest means just that ! Any idiot arguing about "seeds" in the 2.5 Oz is bound to have their career handed to them (with their donkey) by a jury in more populated areas. small town america has always been different but that is not to say good people will not apply the law as instructed.

 

SO the bottom line is we will have answers to all these questions in due time. In the mean time, Dr. Bob's admonition to be careful is good legal advise -- even if from a Doctor.

 

Selling Seeds is a bad bad idea --Do not forget Marc Emory (is in Fed. Prison for selling seeds). Cuttings seem a much smarter play, is covered by the Initative as long as your under 12 plants (cuttings do not have roots but when they do is an issue I would not want to mess with). Just get clones and cuttings.

 

Any MM Person (patient or caregiver/patient) worth their salt should be happy to provide cuttings for next to nothing ($5).

I would suggest the person who set up the FREE website for FREE trading of cuttings and clones is the way to go. Plus is you can test/try the finished product before you plant/grow your cutting/clone.

 

Kinda ends the seed issue and only a fool would sell seeds in Michigan (I can send you Marc's address, He would be happy to tell you his story).

 

M

Edited July 5, 2012 by Murph