1st Time Grower / 1 Lady in Veg

[Restorium2]

1 hour ago, glued gorilla said:

Having not had, this cross, I'm not going to argue the point anymore, but I still think there is possibilty of good product there. I do think there are plenty of modern crosses with great quality and yield though. Ice cream cake, kush mints, and Gg4 are a few that I have run. All are Connisuer quality, and able to produce 2+lb per light.

The only one on your list that I have tried is GG4. Put it this way; If I had a jar of GG4, a jar of SFV OG Kush, a jar of SFV Diesel, and a jar of original chem D, the jar of GG4 wouldn't get used. It would sit there until the others ran out. It's a decent strain but not all that like the SFV strains are. When you grow and are using the best anything less isn't worth anything at all to you. I mean I could sell it. But I wouldn't smoke or vape it. 

[Restorium2]

Any time I run into a 'point of contention', for the sake of finding the truth rather than just thinking I'm right, I do some checks.

What I just did was to ask several patients who have had access to GG4 to give me a comparison to my SVF strains. 

They all said that they wouldn't ever smoke the GG4 if the had the SFV strains. It would sit there and rot or they would sell it if they could.

One said that a person wouldn't have any idea what they had was not as good if they had not tried the others. 

This is old news to me. Been around and around this block since '09. Wasted a lot of time popping seeds and trying other people's strains.  Now that the dispensaries carry most everything it's easier to prove.  Even the stuff they have that they say are SFV strains aren't as good as the real ones. I wonder how many growers have the originals? You definitely can't make as much money with the originals. The lie for money is that the new strains are just as good and you can get better production from them. That is a myth. 

[glued gorilla]

T

4 hours ago, Restorium2 said:

To each their own. The originals are great, but there is more out there. I refuse to live in a box!   Variety is the spice of life.

I have an original Diesel cut, and access to SFV, Ghost, and Tahoe OG cuts. Diesel and Tahoe are great and throw down weight as good as any! I still need variety. Also, having smoked many "Originals", there are plenty equal to the them.  There are unique flavor profiles in many of the originals that are hard to find in other strains, and if you are in love with that exact flavor. You may not like anything else. It does not mean, nothing else is good. I prefer sweeter strains with a bit of gas, and ice cream is probably my favorite for that. GG4 kicks my donkey, but it's flavor is not my preference, but I have a patient that will smoke nothing else.

It is fair to say that for you, nothing beats the old School OG cuts! But, the same is not true for everyone, and it is unfair to say that none of the modern crosses are any good!

[Restorium2]

55 minutes ago, glued gorilla said:

T

To each their own. The originals are great, but there is more out there. I refuse to live in a box!   Variety is the spice of life.

I have an original Diesel cut, and access to SFV, Ghost, and Tahoe OG cuts. Diesel and Tahoe are great and throw down weight as good as any! I still need variety. Also, having smoked many "Originals", there are plenty equal to the them.  There are unique flavor profiles in many of the originals that are hard to find in other strains, and if you are in love with that exact flavor. You may not like anything else. It does not mean, nothing else is good. I prefer sweeter strains with a bit of gas, and ice cream is probably my favorite for that. GG4 kicks my donkey, but it's flavor is not my preference, but I have a patient that will smoke nothing else.

It is fair to say that for you, nothing beats the old School OG cuts! But, the same is not true for everyone, and it is unfair to say that none of the modern crosses are any good!

I wasn't even counting my own opinion. 

[Restorium2]

This discussion brings me to the realization that what I grow hasn't ever been about what I wanted, always what others wanted. 

These jars empty while others only get 'tried'. When you own the candy store you know what people like.

One thing about a really good strong strain like Original Diesel Headband from the San Fernando Valley, even if it comes in a little 'sub par' the effects are always there.

The weaker strains need to be 100% to even be acceptable.

I went from the 70's to the 90's only having Mexican for half the year most of the years. 

My standards are low. I'm not one of the spoiled ones who have to have this and that plus the other thing ....

Heck, I could probably be very happy with some decent brick and no cops breathing down my neck!

Life is funny like that, suffering makes you strong.

[glued gorilla]

On 8/1/2020 at 5:27 PM, Restorium2 said:

I wasn't even counting my own opinion. 

Everyone has their preference, you and your people clearly have theirs. I will agree to disagree. There are plenty of modern crosses, that are just as tasty and at least as potent as the "originals". That is my opinion, based on my experience. Yours seems to be that nothing beats the "originals", and that's just fine.

[Restorium2]

13 hours ago, glued gorilla said:

Everyone has their preference, you and your people clearly have theirs. I will agree to disagree. There are plenty of modern crosses, that are just as tasty and at least as potent as the "originals". That is my opinion, based on my experience. Yours seems to be that nothing beats the "originals", and that's just fine.

The folks that bred the 'originals' had a whole different purpose.  That's the difference. The difference between breeding just for the quality of the effects as compared with now the breeders lean towards quantity and they will tell you that the 'taste' can make up for the lack of the originals' effects. It's all a trade off. The breeders of the originals moved cannabis is a direction and the newer breeders have taken it in a different direction to fit the needs of the industry, not the individuals. It's always a trade off so a change of 'intentions' changes everything.

You have to be able to see that the intentions changed right?

That the industry changed?

And in following that known thing, be unbiased and realize that we are best at fooling ourselves into thinking the effects stayed the same when production went up. We are always best at fooling ourselves .....

[Restorium2]

On 7/31/2020 at 1:55 PM, BrianVegTops said:

When do you think the stretch will start? Still two weeks away?

From what I'm seeing outdoors, my plants that share a little genetic material with yours are stretching a little. That is showing me they got the 'signal'. I mark that as reference comparable to when you see the stretch after you switched your lights to 12/12. So I'm thinking that we are about a week into the flower cycle for the late bloomers. 

On 'sharing' genetic material. Maybe you will get super lucky and see the stronger effects of some of those excellent genes deep down under that laundry list of BS the breeders piled on. Like seeing some abs after you burned all the fat off your belly. You have got some muscle there under that laundry!

[glued gorilla]

On 8/3/2020 at 7:49 AM, Restorium2 said:

The folks that bred the 'originals' had a whole different purpose.  That's the difference. The difference between breeding just for the quality of the effects as compared with now the breeders lean towards quantity and they will tell you that the 'taste' can make up for the lack of the originals' effects. It's all a trade off. The breeders of the originals moved cannabis is a direction and the newer breeders have taken it in a different direction to fit the needs of the industry, not the individuals. It's always a trade off so a change of 'intentions' changes everything.

You have to be able to see that the intentions changed right?

That the industry changed?

And in following that known thing, be unbiased and realize that we are best at fooling ourselves into thinking the effects stayed the same when production went up. We are always best at fooling ourselves .....

I agree, that on some level breeding is now geared more towards production. There are also breeders working more connisuer friendly genetics. My only point was that there is good to still be found, some even better than the originals. To put out the blanket statement that all modern crosses suck, or that if a plant yields heavy, it must be of poor quality, seemed a bit irresponsible. Especially to a new grower with high hopes in what he is growing, let him make the call.

[Restorium2]

37 minutes ago, glued gorilla said:

I agree, that on some level breeding is now geared more towards production. There are also breeders working more connisuer friendly genetics. My only point was that there is good to still be found, some even better than the originals. To put out the blanket statement that all modern crosses suck, or that if a plant yields heavy, it must be of poor quality, seemed a bit irresponsible. Especially to a new grower with high hopes in what he is growing, let him make the call.

Now you went over the line. There's no possible way this is true. The basic building blocks of all the strains that are even decent stand on the shoulders of the originals. If you are standing on the shoulders, saying you are better is just wrong and totally ungrateful. This is more stinging these days with folks taking credit for what others have done while they stand on the shoulders of those they say they are better than.  

[Wild Bill]

31 minutes ago, Restorium2 said:

Now you went over the line. There's no possible way this is true. 

The whole point of selective breeding is to bring out the characteristics that the breeder likes in a strain. You presume to know what is in the mind of a breeder. You say the new strains are all for greater yield but that isn't true. Many of the new strains are bred to increase potency. 

If you crossbreed two heavy hitters you are likely to get a new strain of heavy hitter. Sometimes stronger than the originals.

For any trait you can think of whether it's high CBD, high THC, short plants, bushy plants or plants with attractive colors or aroma there is someone looking to bring that trait out in a particular strain.

The enjoyment of any particular strain is dependent on the person consuming it.

[Restorium2]

31 minutes ago, Wild Bill said:

The whole point of selective breeding is to bring out the characteristics that the breeder likes in a strain. You presume to know what is in the mind of a breeder. You say the new strains are all for greater yield but that isn't true. Many of the new strains are bred to increase potency. 

If you crossbreed two heavy hitters you are likely to get a new strain of heavy hitter. Sometimes stronger than the originals.

For any trait you can think of whether it's high CBD, high THC, short plants, bushy plants or plants with attractive colors or aroma there is someone looking to bring that trait out in a particular strain.

The enjoyment of any particular strain is dependent on the person consuming it.

Ok. Then show me one strain that was successfully bred from the originals just to increase potency.

[Restorium2]

You see they are already maxed out on potency. No one wants something stronger than original chem d. If they even could of been made stronger in the first place they would have been. They are the best. The best had already been bred with each other long ago. You have to understand the story, the history behind the strains. 

All you can come up with is hypothetical reason how they could have been bred 'better', 'stronger' and all you really ended up with is weaker with a different taste. Now if that's what you want it's 'better'.

[glued gorilla]

1 hour ago, Restorium2 said:

Now you went over the line. There's no possible way this is true. The basic building blocks of all the strains that are even decent stand on the shoulders of the originals. If you are standing on the shoulders, saying you are better is just wrong and totally ungrateful. This is more stinging these days with folks taking credit for what others have done while they stand on the shoulders of those they say they are better than.  

Have you smoked Mac 1? There's your example. Probably the best I have ever had, and a very new strain

[Restorium2]

4 hours ago, glued gorilla said:

Have you smoked Mac 1? There's your example. Probably the best I have ever had, and a very new strain

Good example. New cross on an original. It's standing on chem d's shoulders. Just like I said earlier. They all stand on the original's shoulders. Twist it this way and that and once in a while get the real deal shine through from the chem d.  It's just not going to be stronger than the original. Different and almost as strong. 

[Kingdiamond]

On 8/1/2020 at 7:10 AM, Restorium2 said:

Not sure why it's not 9 feet tall with 3 months of veg. Must be that little pot. 

It is the pot size  if it were in the ground or in a 10 gallon pot it would  be  much bigger at this point.

[glued gorilla]

Ok, I'm done. Live in your box. But one last thing. You said this

On 8/3/2020 at 7:49 AM, Restorium2 said:

The folks that bred the 'originals' had a whole different purpose.  That's the difference.

But, most of the " originals" were ACCIDENTAL bag seed, so there was NO purpose. They were happy accidents!

Edited August 5, 2020 by glued gorilla

[Restorium2]

42 minutes ago, glued gorilla said:

Ok, I'm done. Live in your box. But one last thing. You said this

But, most of the " originals" were ACCIDENTAL bag seed, so there was NO purpose. They were happy accidents!

No. You are sadly mistaken. People spent their whole lives on perfecting these original strains. Your lack of knowledge is making you spout off in disrespect. It's very ironic that you say I live in a box when it is you that is isolated from the reality of breeding cannabis correctly and it's history. Where does this come from these days? People pretending to know things they don't, then in their wrongness totally berating someone else's life's work. 

Breeding is very complicated and doesn't involve accidental bag seed.

[Restorium2]

49 minutes ago, glued gorilla said:

Ok, I'm done. Live in your box. But one last thing. You said this

But, most of the " originals" were ACCIDENTAL bag seed, so there was NO purpose. They were happy accidents!

You really need to understand breeding better. If I can help just let me know. Goggle it a little and understand the process better.

[glued gorilla]

1 minute ago, Restorium2 said:

No. You are sadly mistaken. People spent their whole lives on perfecting these original strains. Your lack of knowledge is making you spout off in disrespect. It's very ironic that you say I live in a box when it is you that is isolated from the reality of breeding cannabis correctly and it's history. Where does this come from these days? People pretending to know things they don't, then in their wrongness totally berating someone else's life's work. 

Breeding is very complicated and doesn't involve accidental bag seed.

Chem was a bag seed brotha, they are known accidents. I am not the one mistaken.

If I am wrong, point me to info on the actual breeder of chem dog. Everything I have ever seen says it came from a bag of weed at a dead show. 13 seeds were found... Yada yada

[glued gorilla]

2 minutes ago, Restorium2 said:

You really need to understand breeding better. If I can help just let me know. Goggle it a little and understand the process better.

I do understand it, I have read lots about DJ shorts work and Neville's work. They were breeders! Sorry to burst your bubble , but Chem and many OG strains were accidents!

[glued gorilla]

Resto, when you do your own research, and see that I am right, feel free to apologize. It is ironic that you are the one pretending to know things you don't.

[Restorium2]

1 hour ago, glued gorilla said:

Resto, when you do your own research, and see that I am right, feel free to apologize. It is ironic that you are the one pretending to know things you don't.

Breeding is far more complex then people think. First of all you have to understand that someone that grows great Cannabis will not necessarily be a great breeder.

A breeder needs to not just know the female plants but also how to breed and select the correct males. To have a complete genetic library you need the males as well.

Breeding is a discipline in itself. Many strains that are on the market now are strains that were were created quickly and are genetically unstable. We call these F1’s.

To get what we call a true breed it takes a lot of backbreeding of the strain amongst its peers. A true breed means that it has the same genetic stability and attributes to that of a natural occurring strain but without being native to anywhere.

Skunk #1 by the Flying Dutchman seed company was the worlds first good example of a true breed. They only selected one plant out of 20.000 females to carry on the strain. This breeding process took 20 years to achieve!! (Big kudos to Skunk Man Sam).

Unfortunately there are few Seed companies nowadays that take the time to breed their genetics properly. It takes years to get a stable strain.

[Restorium2]

When you brought up bagseed we were talking about two different things. Bagseed isn't breeding at all. You are off on a tangent. 

 

 

[glued gorilla]

1 minute ago, Restorium2 said:

Breeding is far more complex then people think. First of all you have to understand that someone that grows great Cannabis will not necessarily be a great breeder.

A breeder needs to not just know the female plants but also how to breed and select the correct males. To have a complete genetic library you need the males as well.

Breeding is a discipline in itself. Many strains that are on the market now are strains that were were created quickly and are genetically unstable. We call these F1’s.

To get what we call a true breed it takes a lot of backbreeding of the strain amongst its peers. A true breed means that it has the same genetic stability and attributes to that of a natural occurring strain but without being native to anywhere.

Skunk #1 by the Flying Dutchman seed company was the worlds first good example of a true breed. They only selected one plant out of 20.000 females to carry on the strain. This breeding process took 20 years to achieve!! (Big kudos to Skunk Man Sam).

Unfortunately there are few Seed companies nowadays that take the time to breed their genetics properly. It takes years to get a stable strain.

I'm not arguing that breeding does take work. Most breeders now are breading poly hybrids with poly hybrids.  These seeds are not even really true F1s. True F1s are from stable stock, and produce similar phenotypes, but are unstable to breed with.I this is how breeders used to make seeds, and in a single pack it was much easier to find a "keeper", and there were far fewer hermaphrodites. Quality breeders would also work their lines into IBLs that could be bred with.  I  have read lots on breeding from breeders, and from books on genetics, not just cannabis.

 

The strains you call the "originals" really were just accidents though. The whole chem fam came from bag seed.