I Believe The State Can No Longer Require The Id Card

[MichiganLawyer]

If there is nothing incriminating, how could it be subpenaed? In what way could such a document be used in an investigation of a crime if the documents would show nothing of that nature?

I guess you really didn't pay much attention to what I wrote. ANYTHING can be incriminating if you make it that way. If I apply for a drivers license and use a fake birth certificate then clearly the application materials would be incriminating because they would tend to show that I used a fake b.c. Similarly, if you apply for a mm card and use a fake dr recommendation then that is also fraudulent and would be incriminating. So if a prosecutor can make the necessary showing that your app was probably fraudulent then the info can be subpoenaed. This is not new information and shouldn't be news to you. How do investigators get to the bottom of any crime that involves privileged or confidential info? If you have a dr running a clinic to have homeless people come in so the dr can make false diagnoses so they can rip off medicaid then the medical records can be subpoenaed after the proper showing. The point is that nothing in the application process is PER SE incriminating. Arguing that you are incriminating yourself if the records are subpoenaed and then they show you submitted a fraudulent dr's recommendation is, well, stupid because that is abusing the application process and it is not you using it correctly.

 

Again, what is it you are alleging is incriminating in the application process? Your backward argument that it MUST be incriminating because a prosecutor was able to get a subpoena in some particular case is illogical. If a prosecutor got a subpoena then, yes, SOMETHING was allegedly incriminating in some particular file for some reason but that by no means indicates that EVERY application is incriminating. Again, I ask, what is it you are alleging is incriminating? Let's get down to the nuts and bolts here don't just throw out some generic statement that the PROCESS is incriminating. Seems you are trying to scare people into not applying for a card. Maybe I'm wrong. Just SEEMS that way...

[peanutbutter]

I guess you really didn't pay much attention to what I wrote. ANYTHING can be incriminating if you make it that way. If I apply for a drivers license and use a fake birth certificate then clearly the application materials would be incriminating because they would tend to show that I used a fake b.c. Similarly, if you apply for a mm card and use a fake dr recommendation then that is also fraudulent and would be incriminating. So if a prosecutor can make the necessary showing that your app was probably fraudulent then the info can be subpoenaed. This is not new information and shouldn't be news to you. How do investigators get to the bottom of any crime that involves privileged or confidential info? If you have a dr running a clinic to have homeless people come in so the dr can make false diagnoses so they can rip off medicaid then the medical records can be subpoenaed after the proper showing. The point is that nothing in the application process is PER SE incriminating. Arguing that you are incriminating yourself if the records are subpoenaed and then they show you submitted a fraudulent dr's recommendation is, well, stupid because that is abusing the application process and it is not you using it correctly.

 

Again, what is it you are alleging is incriminating in the application process? Your backward argument that it MUST be incriminating because a prosecutor was able to get a subpoena in some particular case is illogical. If a prosecutor got a subpoena then, yes, SOMETHING was allegedly incriminating in some particular file for some reason but that by no means indicates that EVERY application is incriminating. Again, I ask, what is it you are alleging is incriminating? Let's get down to the nuts and bolts here don't just throw out some generic statement that the PROCESS is incriminating. Seems you are trying to scare people into not applying for a card. Maybe I'm wrong. Just SEEMS that way...

 

Please .. you seem to translate claiming your rights as evidence of criminal activity.

 

The phrase is "might be used against you in court."

 

Not will be .. might be.

 

Until the registry was cracked open, there was a reasonable belief that the records would never be used in court. That has changed. Now these records might be used against the applicant in a court of law.

[peanutbutter]

Again, what is it you are alleging is incriminating in the application process? Your backward argument that it MUST be incriminating because a prosecutor was able to get a subpoena in some particular case is illogical. If a prosecutor got a subpoena then, yes, SOMETHING was allegedly incriminating in some particular file for some reason but that by no means indicates that EVERY application is incriminating. Again, I ask, what is it you are alleging is incriminating? Let's get down to the nuts and bolts here don't just throw out some generic statement that the PROCESS is incriminating. Seems you are trying to scare people into not applying for a card. Maybe I'm wrong. Just SEEMS that way...

 

The purpose for using the documents would be to prove a violation of federal law.

 

I don't believe the licensing documents contain any information about a specific crime.

 

There is no confession of marijuana use, transfer or manufacture.

 

The information is protected under both HIPPA and the MMMA.

 

Because the information is legally protected, it requires an action of the court to extract the information.

 

These protections are not enough to prevent the documents from being used against the applicant in a court of law. Rightly or wrongly. Guilt or innocence is not an element.

 

If they can be used, then they are "might be used against you in a court of law" kinds of documents. Signed by the applicant.

Edited November 11, 2011 by peanutbutter

[peanutbutter]

And my motive ..

 

To cost the state several millions of dollars in lost revenue. Each year.

[MichiganLawyer]

You realize, don't you, that you aren't making any sense? Again, the documents are not per se incriminating. Of what federal law can they be proof of violation?

 

The purpose for using the documents would be to prove a violation of federal law.

 

I don't believe the licensing documents contain any information about a specific crime.

 

There is no confession of marijuana use, transfer or manufacture.

 

The information is protected under both HIPPA and the MMMA.

 

Because the information is legally protected, it requires an action of the court to extract the information.

 

These protections are not enough to prevent the documents from being used against the applicant in a court of law. Rightly or wrongly. Guilt or innocence is not an element.

 

If they can be used, then they are "might be used against you in a court of law" kinds of documents. Signed by the applicant.

[peanutbutter]

You realize, don't you, that you aren't making any sense? Again, the documents are not per se incriminating. Of what federal law can they be proof of violation?

 

Ask the federal judge.

 

I have no idea why he would think so.

 

If his ruling was correct, then the records are, perhaps might be, evidence of some crime.

[bobandtorey]

Ask the federal judge.

 

I have no idea why he would think so.

 

If his ruling was correct, then the records are, perhaps might be, evidence of some crime.

 

 

We wont be FREE?

[MichiganLawyer]

And my motive ..

 

To cost the state several millions of dollars in lost revenue. Each year.

Whether you agree or not the card does provide some measure of protection. What you are advocating is that everyone give that up because that sacrifice is worth YOUR political agenda. Don't be so fricking selfish.

 

Furthermore, if you think that losing out on the revenue brought in by the cards is going to make the state think twice about ANYTHING then you really don't understand the larger scheme of things. The revenue generated by the cards is a drop in the bucket in the state's budget. There won't be one politician out there that gives a crap if it's lost. Heck, expenditure on legislator lifetime healthcare alone far outweighs this revenue on a per year basis. Somehow you have some strange idea that the legislature will be clamboring to "save" this revenue source. The problem is that you have no perspective. A couple million a year is big bucks to YOU so you think it is to the state as well. Consider that the state brings in somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 BILLION dollars in revenue every year. That is BILLION with B! The revenue brought in by the cards is infinitesimal compared to that. It's like your pocket change compared to your YEARLY salary. You wouldn't dig into your pocket and throw a fistfull of change on the ground and walk away but if you did it wouldn't exactly break your bank and you likely wouldn't give much thought to it after 1 minute. To give you perspective the Lansing School District recently "found" almost 10 million dollars that it "forgot" existed.

 

One thing you need to get through your head is that NOBODY in Lansing will a crap if that revenue is lost. NOBODY. So advocating that patients go without cards to somehow affect change based on the contribution to the state's revenue stream (or lack thereof) makes you look like a clown. And it HURTS patients. Is that what you want? I thought we were here to PROTECT patients???

[MichiganLawyer]

Okay, I'll write this one more time. I can't say I will SAY it slowly so you can understand so I will, instead, tell you to read it a few times.

 

The fact that a federal judge allowed certain records to be subpoenaed does NOT mean that all records are PER SE incriminating. It could mean that the prosecutor made an initial showing that certain records were FRAUDULENT (such as would be the case with fraudulent recommendations). Making that showing that they were fraudulent would then allow a subpoena to issue on THOSE records. No judge ANYWHERE allowed an across-the-board subpoena that allowed access to ALL patient records. Only SPECIFIC records were subpoenaed. And since neither you nor I know the basis of the subpoena you cannot make some general assumption that ALL records are evidence of some crime. Get it together gersh.

 

Ask the federal judge.

 

I have no idea why he would think so.

 

If his ruling was correct, then the records are, perhaps might be, evidence of some crime.

Edited November 11, 2011 by MichiganLawyer

[cristinew]

the feds have been using state papers as proof in many cases in col and calif,

[MichiganLawyer]

To give you even MORE perspective--The medical marijuana card revenue, on a percentage basis, would be equal to about $4.50 of your yearly income if you made $100,000 per year. The revenue generated by the program is .004% of the total state revenue on a given year. Four thousands of a percent of total revenue.

[MichiganLawyer]

the feds have been using state papers as proof in many cases in col and calif,

As proof of what? They don't prove use or possession. It isn't against federal law to have a card. Possessing a card doesn't prove possession or use of mj anymore than possessing a drivers license proves use or possession of a car. Do you know people who have a drivers license but don't own a car? I bet you do. I bet there are thousands of teenagers in this state that don't drive or own a car but that still have a drivers license.

[peanutbutter]

As proof of what? They don't prove use or possession. It isn't against federal law to have a card. Possessing a card doesn't prove possession or use of mj anymore than possessing a drivers license proves use or possession of a car. Do you know people who have a drivers license but don't own a car? I bet you do. I bet there are thousands of teenagers in this state that don't drive or own a car but that still have a drivers license.

 

Exactly.

 

However, there are relationships that are defined in the files. Those relationships are being used to show RICO kinds of things.

 

Such as one caregiver working with five patients.

 

The records have the relationship, not the crime.

[peanutbutter]

To give you even MORE perspective--The medical marijuana card revenue, on a percentage basis, would be equal to about $4.50 of your yearly income if you made $100,000 per year. The revenue generated by the program is .004% of the total state revenue on a given year. Four thousands of a percent of total revenue.

 

Good .. it's such a small thing. They don't need it and we do.

[MichiganLawyer]

Good .. it's such a small thing. They don't need it and we do.

Is that argument analogous to "And you're ugly, so there."?

 

The point in all of this discussion is patient protections, not who needs money. The bottom line is that the card provides some measure of protection. Whether it provides as much as it should is a different argument but it does provide SOME. Therefore, to argue that people shouldn't get a card, or to suggest that it will somehow make the state suffer is ridiculous and, in the end, contrary to the best interests of patients.

Edited November 11, 2011 by MichiganLawyer

[peanutbutter]

Is that argument analogous to "And you're ugly, so there."?

 

The point in all of this discussion is patient protections, not who needs money. The bottom line is that the card provides some measure of protection. Whether it provides as much as it should is a different argument but it does provide SOME. Therefore, to argue that people shouldn't get a card, or to suggest that it will somehow make the state suffer is ridiculous and, in the end, contrary to the best interests of patients.

 

OH!! I guess I didn't make it clear.

 

I don't suggest someone not register. I suggest that the entire registry system is already null and void.

 

Yes .. they'll accept the self-incrimination documents. Then in the long run they might send you a card.

 

Yes .. it does provide some protection right now. Which is the exact same protection should be afforded to the patient with only a doctors letter.

 

The full protection of the law without the state issued ID card. This removes any possibility of these documents being used against persons in federal court.

[MichiganLawyer]

Which only emphasizes why it is risky to assume that federal law won't apply to you. However, in theory, when you submitted your paperwork to the state you weren't in violation of RICO. It wasn't until AFTER your submission that you engaged in a violation of federal law. The state can't insulate you from that. That's the bottom line. And your initial submission of info was not incriminating...

 

 

Exactly.

 

However, there are relationships that are defined in the files. Those relationships are being used to show RICO kinds of things.

 

Such as one caregiver working with five patients.

 

The records have the relationship, not the crime.

[MichiganLawyer]

SHOULD be the same protection? Well, maybe, but then it SHOULDN'T be federally outlawed either but we have to play the hand we are dealt. We voted in a law that DOESN'T provide the same protection for a dr rec as it does for a card. That's on us, so to speak. So rather than deal with what SHOULD be the case I would rather deal with what IS the case. And what IS the case is that the card provides more protections.

 

 

€

OH!! I guess I didn't make it clear.

 

I don't suggest someone not register. I suggest that the entire registry system is already null and void.

 

Yes .. they'll accept the self-incrimination documents. Then in the long run they might send you a card.

 

Yes .. it does provide some protection right now. Which is the exact same protection should be afforded to the patient with only a doctors letter.

 

The full protection of the law without the state issued ID card. This removes any possibility of these documents being used against persons in federal court.

[The Questioner]

I agree with what you say PB.

I dont beleive we need the card and I feel the card puts you in the 'system' and makes you a target.

 

I fear for my rights and safety and harassment from any police officials. Even when Im legal they still make us feel like criminals.

I dont want to get trampled by the system and I dont want to get caught up in the mess they can drag you through.

 

Its said that the funds arent first being used to expand & correct the MMMA.

Once the people are happy with the law and its fine tuned, I dont mind using the funds to cover other things like education or fixing our ROADDS!!!

**sadly spending money on education is a waste at this point. It needs to be completely rewired. The system is old and out of date and other country's have passed us, some ten fold. Education system is a black hole currently. As is most of our gov't.

 

Back to the point.

Doctor recommendation makes you legal to use under the act. The card which is an illegal system per the law, has hopefully been removed for a reason and per the law and the supreme case you pointed out, needs to be rescheduled. I wouldn't mind paying a tax on 'overages' sold and lets be real and stop calling it donations... Why dont I call my job that pays me a donation than...

 

A tax would be legal. A card that undermines your human rights for protection under a federal law is NON-SENSE.

 

WE CAN FIX ANYTHING IN THE WORLD, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS GET ENOUGH PEOPLE TO WAKE THE F*** UP AND JOIN IN ~!

All those who have power over you and earth, know this, and dont want the peasants to figure it out. Than the games over. The people run the show. And its time for the PEOPLE to take back America from these gentlemen.

Time to refresh the trees of Tyranny~! Join the Protest all over the Country. They are happening in your city too, just find out when and how you can participate~!

Life's what you make it and if you rely on others to fix the issues, than your setting yourselves up for repercussions and fail'er.

[hofner67]

Restructuring the MDCH saves the state money. No sense in bashing the right person for the wrong thing. You build better credibility by being real and understanding the issue. There are enough things Snyder does wrong. We don't need to make a big negative deal out of something that actually helps the state.

how do know the switch saved money?

[peanutbutter]

Restructuring the MDCH saves the state money. No sense in bashing the right person for the wrong thing. You build better credibility by being real and understanding the issue. There are enough things Snyder does wrong. We don't need to make a big negative deal out of something that actually helps the state.

 

This "saving money," means that even more of patients money was skimmed off by the State. Leaving the department even more underfunded.

 

They need more people working on ID cards.

 

The fees are supposed to fund the program. You can (as you are) support the idea that it is proper for the state to just keep the extra.

 

Keeping the extra is only one point. The other is the state insuring the program can't fulfill their responsibilities because of this "extra" being skimmed off.

 

They can not and will not meet their requirements. Not because the funds aren't there to do the job, but because the funds to do the job are being embezzled by the State.

[peanutbutter]

I agree with what you say PB.

I dont beleive we need the card and I feel the card puts you in the 'system' and makes you a target.

 

I fear for my rights and safety and harassment from any police officials. Even when Im legal they still make us feel like criminals.

I dont want to get trampled by the system and I dont want to get caught up in the mess they can drag you through.

 

Its said that the funds arent first being used to expand & correct the MMMA.

Once the people are happy with the law and its fine tuned, I dont mind using the funds to cover other things like education or fixing our ROADDS!!!

**sadly spending money on education is a waste at this point. It needs to be completely rewired. The system is old and out of date and other country's have passed us, some ten fold. Education system is a black hole currently. As is most of our gov't.

 

Back to the point.

Doctor recommendation makes you legal to use under the act. The card which is an illegal system per the law, has hopefully been removed for a reason and per the law and the supreme case you pointed out, needs to be rescheduled. I wouldn't mind paying a tax on 'overages' sold and lets be real and stop calling it donations... Why dont I call my job that pays me a donation than...

 

A tax would be legal. A card that undermines your human rights for protection under a federal law is NON-SENSE.

 

WE CAN FIX ANYTHING IN THE WORLD, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS GET ENOUGH PEOPLE TO WAKE THE F*** UP AND JOIN IN ~!

All those who have power over you and earth, know this, and dont want the peasants to figure it out. Than the games over. The people run the show. And its time for the PEOPLE to take back America from these gentlemen.

Time to refresh the trees of Tyranny~! Join the Protest all over the Country. They are happening in your city too, just find out when and how you can participate~!

Life's what you make it and if you rely on others to fix the issues, than your setting yourselves up for repercussions and fail'er.

 

I'm not urging people to put themselves in harms way.

 

I'm not saying don't register. I'm saying they should stop pretending to comply with the voters.

 

The state is unwilling to comply with the voters. Fine .. just give us all the protections without the card.

[petoskeystoned]

When raided the first time I had complete paperwork for 4, and a Dr.'s rec for myself. They took 48 plants and I was arrested and charged. All doctors, all of my patients, and all of their records were supbenoed by the pa and emmediately turned over, and the information given was in error.

In January when raided, I had more cards than I needed, and they didn't take anything but roaches cuz their stupid. They broke barbi's nose, stripped us and destroyed our home.. Again, but they left the grow alone..

I was repeatedly pulled over, and was always messed with, however, showing my card to a LEO has always kept me walking, as long as the LEO was just a beat cop. HE will not understand the paperwork, the lapse in time, or your excuse. But he has seen the card..

None of my patients have ever been arrested for having their card, even with my name on the back lol. Get your card. Or don't. A lot of variables right now. When I agreed to be Jenny's Caregiver, I never intended it to completely ruin my life and some of those around me.. But hey..

I guess if I was a single patient, living alone, and was very inactive, I could consider a drs rec only, but for most of us, the card is too much a part of our lives, like a driver's license. Always seem to have to show it!

[CannabisPatient#1]

What I'm saying is that all patients should have every iota of protection of this law WITHOUT the ID card.

 

Both the protections of section four and section 8.

 

With a simple doctors letter.

 

The state won't issue cards right.

The state won't do hearings for new conditions.

 

Provide full protection for everyone with a letter.

 

GET THE STATE COMPLETELY OUT OF THE PICTURE.

 

After three years, the state has proven it can't be trusted with the job required by the voters.

 

Even the simplest task of twenty days.

 

RIGHT! I was thinking the same thing. Why should I pay the state $ for a card when I am covered totally by the affirmative defense. I have a signed doctor's note in my medical file and one in my file at home. What more do I really need?

 

The $100 fee for the card is easily recouped by using it for the 15% discount at the grow store, but that doesn't make it right. How much money has the state made off of patients and they still can't do it right. Everyone should just use the AD.

[Kevin]

We pay the doc to get legal. We pay the state to get the card. We adhere to the letter of law, yet one opinion by the AG carries more weight than 3+ million voters.

 

They have collected more than $11 million from us patients so far yet the program is grossly underfunded for whatever reasons. There have been no new qualifying conditions added. Good folks are waiting 5-6 months for a card that has a wrong date or their name misspelled only to have to send it back and wait some more. Then they get the card only to find out their local LEO will not honor it and they lose their freedom as well as their property.

 

Fund the program properly as they have more than enough money to do, add the new qualifying conditions, get the cards out on time as required by law, and they can keep the rest of the money.

 

We patients have been in full compliance with the law since day one. The state has not. Those are the facts and they cannot be disputed.