Caregivers In Mi

[MiMedical]

To all the Caregivers in Michigan, you better read the Hartwick Case, and take a look at this case, Learn your patients ailments, go to the Dr. appointments with them.

here is a case out of Grand Rapids, a few factors were of concern, but he did not know if the patient did in fact have a "Bona Fide relationship"

 

"Bona fide ruling -->http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/former_medical_marijuana_dispe.html

 

Hartwick case---->  http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1650389.html

 

New SB736 (Judge decides if MMJ is right for you, Not the DR! --> http://komornlaw.com/komornlawblog/michigans-senate-bill-736-targets-parents-who-have-medical-marijuana-card/

[Hydraulic Jack]

My patient is my Mother and I do go to the doctor with her.....I guess I'm lucky in that way....HJ

[trichcycler]

I'd say she's the lucky one  

My patient is my Mother and I do go to the doctor with her.....I guess I'm lucky in that way....HJ

[beourbud]

My patient is my Mother and I do go to the doctor with her.....I guess I'm lucky in that way....HJ

 

Truly a Man of Higher Intelligence

[GanjaWarrior]

interesting...id say just something that needs to be fought. no where in the law, or anywhere does it say anything about any of this. the pharmacist has been filling scripts for me my whole life, and doesnt have even the slightest  idea whats wrong with me. it frustrates me, there are the rather obvious example of discrimination. we are not treated the same way as any other person with a medical issue. sadly our leaders fill their pockets while these things pop up one after another and no ones objecting.

[vandowls]

I totally agree with you GanjaWarrior. I am fortunate too that my patient is my son, then I recently picked up another patient. I am fortunate that the profession I often come in close contact with attorneies and "the powers that be" and had overheard that might make it an "issue" if caregivers do not have almost like a medical file on their patients. So the new patient I picked up, I spoke with him about his conditions and went to the appointment with him. He was thankfully very understanding. I made files for both patients (my son and a the other patient) that include this information. I took it one step further and included a confidentiality policy..

[Restorium2]

The information on the form should be enough. It was enough for LARA so it should be enough for everyone else. It's the law.

[trichcycler]

If this continues...........so when does the HIPPA compliancy classes hit us ?

Edited January 18, 2014 by grassmatch

[Dankthsea]

I mentioned a while ago, I create a med file, because that'd where this is going, and as a nurse I understand your not doing anything medically if there's no feedback loop and some kind of standardized med flow involved. I actually wanted to teach classes of what to collect and how, and provide a standardized set of forms you all could follow.to make it easy fill the form, and have focus in data collection. And.....CYA!!!!!!!!! Maybe this is needed afterall......this is the autonomy in this profession I often encourage caregivers to partake in.....we need to show why no one else can provide medical cannabis therapy.....but you need some standards guys......

 

 

Also I have form my patient sign and one bullet they sign off saying the have, and will maintain a bona fide relationship. I wonder if this has any weight now.....although it shows dilligence. What are you guys doing to verify this with your patients, if you are?

 

 

 

Somebody's trying to take your job....get serious about how to keep it!

[Restorium2]

I mentioned a while ago, I create a med file, because that'd where this is going, and as a nurse I understand your not doing anything medically if there's no feedback loop and some kind of standardized med flow involved. I actually wanted to teach classes of what to collect and how, and provide a standardized set of forms you all could follow.to make it easy fill the form, and have focus in data collection. And.....CYA!!!!!!!!! Maybe this is needed afterall......this is the autonomy in this profession I often encourage caregivers to partake in.....we need to show why no one else can provide medical cannabis therapy.....but you need some standards guys......

 

 

Also I have form my patient sign and one bullet they sign off saying the have, and will maintain a bona fide relationship. I wonder if this has any weight now.....although it shows dilligence. What are you guys doing to verify this with your patients, if you are?

 

 

 

Somebody's trying to take your job....get serious about how to keep it!

Exactly where we don't need, or want, to go. A caregiver is not a doctor. We do a 'feedback loop' with our doctor and use a caregiver as a supply, like a pharmacy. Do you provide a feedback loop to the pharmacy? Nope. All the caregiver needs to know is on the form.

[GrowGoddess]

It is really too bad. I thought by now things would be getting more relaxed, safer, and more comfortable. This is not the case. As a caregiver, I feel that I am being terrorized by my own government. I don't feel that it is safe to grow legally or by the guidelines of the MMMP. Having a full time job and some of my patients being 200+ miles away from me I guess I am expected to quit my job, drive to where they are, go to their doctor appointments, take full responsibility for the patient, doctors, the government (state), and full liability? So I am responsible for any mistakes and it is all on me? Obviously, it would be mandatory for me to quit my job. That would be to just stay in the safe zone for one patient. $1,000/ounce would not accommodate me in that respect.

 

Our law is not getting better, it is becoming more insane. Why are all the responsibilities pushed onto the citizens? What is the point of the doctor having the license if I am liable or what is the point if the judge can now determine who can and cannot use MMJ? Just think, this is probably our first example of what Obamacare is going to be. A judge will decide everything. I guess they already do in a way.

 

The black market is starting to sound much more safe and healthy to me more and more. After next month, I am down to two patients. I am letting my cards expire, I don't need this s hit. What has really gotten me angry is if a patient wants to use MMJ in a medicinal fashion or a safe manner, it must be done illegally. If they want to purchase medicinal marijuana (oil, concentrates, vaporizing, edibles), that also must be done illegally. I guess our government wants the black market to prevail? It sure has helped Mexico in the past! MJ being illegal has made Mexico a lot of money. It has helped them purchase American assault weapons to kill people with.

 

I am not able to accommodate this bill. It is truly sick that our politicians sit around thinking up bills to pass that do nothing but cause more harm than good to our community. I can only think of a couple of bills that need to be passed immediately that I would like to see my tax dollars spent on now. That would be a reduction of laws in respect to businesses and people's freedoms. Laws governing politicians with mandatory prison sentences when violated. I would like to see real job creation, not lies and deception. Cutting the hours of McDonald's workers to create more jobs is not job creation. Just think, every one of those wrongful jobs created cost us $400,000 for each one, based upon an article on MSN News. Besides that, McDonald's and all other entities like them also received a $5,000 tax break for each "new" job created. Can you imagine all of the jobs that would be created if they would just leave us alone and legalize marijuana for real?

 

While I am ranting, I would like to add this off topic comment. Regulation: that is a dirty scheme. Just look at tobacco. The more tobacco is regulated, the more people get sick and die from it. Why you may ask? It has been regulated so much, true tobacco is illegal. It must be a cesspool of chemicals and tobacco grown in radiated fertilizers, and it must kill people much more quickly and at far higher rates than natural untainted tobacco in order for it to be legal in the psychotic USA.

 

My apologies for ranting, just not a good day for me today.

[vandowls]

Dankthsea, I like that extra point about keeping the relationship with their medical professional.

[MiMedical]

Exactly where we don't need, or want, to go. A caregiver is not a doctor. We do a 'feedback loop' with our doctor and use a caregiver as a supply, like a pharmacy. Do you provide a feedback loop to the pharmacy? Nope. All the caregiver needs to know is on the form.

[TheHarvester]

It's amazing the lengths we see people being asked to go to provide for the sick and suffering.

Ideas like this make me wonder if they all aren't part of a greater plan to eventually wipe out any possibilities of provision beyond the strict pharmaceutical model.

[LansingAreaCaregiver]

This is craziness.  I'm amazed at the lengths they went through to justify this.  Sounds like certification docs need to start issuing dosage and frequency letters with their recommendations to protect patients and caregivers. 

 

It really goes to show how much outright legalization is needed, otherwise we'll keep having to deal with nonsense like this.

Edited January 19, 2014 by LansingAreaCaregiver

[Restorium2]

Certification doctors already give specific instructions WHEN APPROPRIATE on the forms. Most times flexibility of dosage and administration are key factors with using a mild drug like cannabis. A patient needs to be in charge of administration and dosage in most cases. For example; Take as needed. That advice is used often with other stronger drugs.

[Dankthsea]

Certification doctors already give specific instructions WHEN APPROPRIATE on the forms. Most times flexibility of dosage and administration are key factors with using a mild drug like cannabis. A patient needs to be in charge of administration and dosage in most cases. For example; Take as needed. That advice is used often with other stronger drugs.

 

I understand in the world 2lbs per 600watt light, and in a land where all seeds turn into elites, this argument can stand.....but if you would, please take a serious look at practicality.

 

What you want, and what you can reasonably lobby to happen are far different....sure I can play in the 2lbs magic land, but I want realistic expectations, so there can be true change.

 

Heres my point, and I do wish we could remove regulations but its not gonna happen. We need to show why we are autonomois as caregivers creating a unique and defined skill set.

Regulations, good or bad, are coming, its a hot button issue. Most voters and lawmakers aren't as educated by this ( oppurtunity to educate!) And if they are in favor, but want it for med value, they are going to want someone capable of regulating it.

 

There's the problem, we know pharma, or even a go doc isnt well versed in our craft....but the public will use one type of established and accepted medical system to moderate it, to the uneducated, that keeps med value in this.

 

This is why caregivers have a option to establish autonomy, utilize data collection and.share.info....science doesn't advance as fast without that....

Point.....someone is going to have to prove med aptitude in future to assist with med cannabis.....its just my opinion but I can't choose to join fantasy land, although who.doesn't want 2lbs. Per 600w's, it just doesn't sound possible of a system while advancing, especially with people waving the med flag. Instead, the true stuff that effects the world off of forum debates, in the real world, without medicated eyes.....I just can't see that they will grant you (or reinforce) your power without some example, in a accepted medical rythm, of how you provide medical depth and aptitude in treatment.

 

I know some of you hate this, but imho its not a choice, its how to position yourself for the win.....even if it doesn't represent the spirit of the law the way you thought it should be read.....

[Dankthsea]

Restorium, maybe you can attend a Birmingham meeting to really get into.somethings, I see your passionate, but I would love instead to chat face to face with you. Last meeting was Tuesday, look for the sticky and.try and.attend.

[Restorium2]

You are taking the dinosaur's view of this dank. Just think of the instructions appropriately offered when you get yourself one of those big dangerous bottles of pills from the doctor. Same same. ALWAYS apply this logic first to any of your ideas and you will not get so far 'out there'. This should really be 'over the counter'. You are heading in the wrong direction.

 

I see that you are here hunting for patients and trying to set yourself above somehow. Throwing the rest of us under the bus at the same time is going to be your own personal trainwreck.

[Dankthsea]

 

Exactly where we don't need, or want, to go. A caregiver is not a doctor. We do a 'feedback loop' with our doctor and use a caregiver as a supply, like a pharmacy. Do you provide a feedback loop to the pharmacy? Nope. All the caregiver needs to know is on the form.

Then maybe I distinguish myself as a more involved caregiver? I accept you need to validate this to.some degree....people are lying and.doing foul things under this law ey? I learned cya, cover your donkey, in nursing long ago.

 

And......yes.......yes I should have some feedback to the doc pharmacy or whatever is involved......were talking using medicine.....you need open lines......what if, for example you had a person on cardiac meds, normalized but hypotensive sided bp with slight bp drop with flower...normal.

So you give the guy edibles and then bho for cape etc....edibles may slowly reduce vascular tone, or relax it should.I say, correlated to lower bp.....now we had a slightly hypo running person that now will.be lower prior to bho vape......then comes the vape.....poops who's got too low of bp and on the floor? Standard dabber first expiernce, or cardiac complication?

 

Not your job to assess etc but take scenario.....see how important our feedback.could be to ensure all.meds mesh.well, which is a unique need for health in that individual.......

 

How bout the guy who rolls.huge moldy joints for a cops patient because they can grow, but have no medical.aptitude......problems!

 

 

There is the issue, you don't need to be a doc, and shouldn't have to be.....

 

 

But.....we need to make sure people have medical minded concepts as they relate to the craft....these need to be compiled and taught as our autonomous info we hold.

 

You, and everybody on the forum might think they can handle this, but there is.no.standard...and you don't know that a caregiver won't give a moldy joint to a cops person and.think they are helping.

 

Sucks.....but how do you provide something medically without these things? Patients deserve better.

 

It's irresponsible to not go towards that

 

I recommend instead, as always, create autonomy now, you make the workflow, you decide how Nd why to moderate, make a standard of.knowledge for caregivers to impart some.rough medical.knowledge.......and hold caregivers to that standard.....then when they pull.this crap...you grab your professional binder, with workflows, and medically relevant data collection....and tell them how you serve the patients best....with authority. And at that point its still a 50/50.....but right now, without it, its either going.to.pharma, or straight legal ( no opposition)

 

I just don't know how any other path seems likely.....again...not what we want.....what's coming

[Restorium2]

QUOTE: Then maybe I distinguish myself as a more involved caregiver?
 

 

Yes, I see that. You are telling us all about dirty deeds by other caregivers. Stories. Medical standards are already in place and they are a certain way to allow flexibility in medicine. Cannabis is no different. Over complicate any treatment and it becomes too cumbersome, and therefore more bother than it's worth.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Restorium2

[trichcycler]

while agree with many of your points dankthc, I am already feeling this craft as a job, one that doesn't pay much at all. Now I don't do this for the money, if that's what it was I'd have no patients but myself. I'm retired and don't need extra income luckily, for my patients. However, I most likely will drop out if I'm required to keep these types of checks and balances right. I really wanted this to be a herbal alternative, rather than a medicine, but took it as offered. The amount of work, you well know, and the security measures, risks, are just not worth 200 bucks an ounce to me to perform. That amount would no longer cover my gardening expenses. I trade my time and lifestyle for my own supply, and my patients help me pay for the utilities.  If it wasn't medicine, it wouldn't require a "patient" to obtain it I guess.

 

peace, you're doing the right thing, I hope you don't burn out.

[Dankthsea]

QUOTE: Then maybe I distinguish myself as a more involved caregiver?

 

 

Yes, I see that. You are telling us all about dirty deeds by other caregivers. Stories. Medical standards are already in place and they are a certain way to allow flexibility in medicine. Cannabis is no different. Over complicate any treatment and it becomes too cumbersome, and therefore more bother than it's worth.

Dirty deeds? I asked you to attend a meeting so you could answer face to face for your bs....nay sayers that don't use facts make.me.look smarter...thank you for allowing me to show everyone I am nothing like you.

 

You just shoot from the cuff and like to be a troll here....you have no value to the community, in most of your posts.....

 

 

I'm sorry if these needed skills are ones you cannot incorporate.

 

Grassmatch.....I hear you, I favor legalization and In that respect think there would be more option to use it loosely as you see fit for health.....and I'm on board......but the law says medical, and that part mandates some extra work....

 

 

 

Back to restorium.....I'm laughing about what crap you'll put next ( although I called you out again, so you'll try very hard not to act like yourself)....ill see you at a meeting maybe, I'm the tall guy In the back seemingly quiet and observing. The master debator strikes again!

[Restorium2]

Dirty deeds? I asked you to attend a meeting so you could answer face to face for your bs....nay sayers that don't use facts make.me.look smarter...thank you for allowing me to show everyone I am nothing like you.

 

You just shoot from the cuff and like to be a troll here....you have no value to the community, in most of your posts.....

 

 

I'm sorry if these needed skills are ones you cannot incorporate.

 

Grassmatch.....I hear you, I favor legalization and In that respect think there would be more option to use it loosely as you see fit for health.....and I'm on board......but the law says medical, and that part mandates some extra work....

 

 

 

Back to restorium.....I'm laughing about what crap you'll put next ( although I called you out again, so you'll try very hard not to act like yourself)....ill see you at a meeting maybe, I'm the tall guy In the back seemingly quiet and observing. The master debator strikes again!

Been at this since '08 dank. I know what works and what does not. I protect my interests. A bad idea is a bad idea, no matter how you slice it. Nothing personal. You just smack of a bad idea. Not the first time it's been floated out there either. Live and learn.

[Restorium2]

Always keep it in focus that caregivers are not even a manditory part of the law here in Michigan. Patients don't even have to have one. With that in mind, you can't just insert things that you think a caregiver must do, they are just an option. Doctors and patients are manditory and the interaction between them is key. A patient can take over all things a caregiver does at any time. BOOM you are gone.