What Is Reasonable Compensation?

[+Malamute]

Sec 6(e) A registered primary caregiver may receive compensation for costs associated with assisting a registered qualifying patient in the medical use of marihuana. Any such compensation shall not constitute the sale of controlled substances.

 

 

 

 

Definiton of "costs" as listed and defined in Blacks Law Dictionary 8th edition:

 

"Cost" n 1. The amount paid or charged for something; price or expenditure. Cf. EXPENSE

 

 Types of costs:

 

 aboriginal cost

 after cost

 applied cost

 average cost

 avoidable cost

 carrying cost

 common cost

 cost of completion

 direct cost

 distribution cost

 fixed cost

 flotation cost

 historical cost

 implicit cost

 indirect cost

 manufacturing cost

 marginal cost

 mitigation cost

 mixed cost

 net book cost

 opportunity cost

 original cost

 prime cost

 prophylactic cost

 replacement cost

 social cost

 sunk cost

 tangible cost

 transaction cost

 unit cost

 variable cost

 

It goes on for 2 more pages with full definitions... ;-)

 

 

 

Definition of "Compensate" as listed and defined in Blacks Law Dictionary 8th edition:

 

"Compensate" vb. 1. To pay (another) for services rendered <the lawyer was fairly compensated for their time and effort> 2. To make an amendatory payment to; to recompensate.

 

 

Definition of "Compensation" as listed and defined in Blacks Law Dictionary 8th edition:

 

"Compensation" n. Remuneration and other benefits recieved in return for services rendered; esp. salary or wages.

   "Compensation consists of wages and benefits in return for services. It is payment for work, If the work contracted for is not done, there is no obligation to pay. [Compensation] includes wages, stock options plans, profit-sharing, commissions, bonuses, golden parachutes, vacation, sick pay, medical benefits, disability, leaves of absence, and expense reimbursement." Kurt H. Decker & H. Thomas Felix II, Drafting and Revising Employment Contracts S 3.17, at 68(1991).

 

 

 Definition of "Expense" as listed and defined in Blacks Law Dictionary 8th edition:

 

 "Expense" n.  An expenditure of money, time, labor, or resources to accomplish a result;

[+Malamute]

I just post that excerpt in topics that run astray like this so people can get on the same page.

 

 Anyone can say any amount for costs and compensation.  The law doesn't care. Private agreement only.

[+Malamute]

Btw, grassmatch's first response made on the thread had all the answers needed in one post. Prolly could have locked the topic from there. Hehehe.

[trichcycler]

 

[Highlander]

We need to be careful referencing Black's law because in Michigan a public initiative (such as the MMMA) is to be interpreted based on common terms rather than legal definitions (except, of course terms defined in the law itself).  This was explained to me by an attorney during the flurry of discussion regarding p2p sales.  After the COA ruled that "sale" is a "transfer for a price"  and the law only allows transfers - not sales, I looked up the definition of "transfer" in Black's.  The definition included a "sale."  I was thrilled because no common dictionary (Webster, etc.) defined "transfer" to include sale.  Sadly, Black's definition wasn't relevant 

[GregS]

Bob? Bob?

 

Did someone take his Lucky Charms again?

[GregS]

Well, alrighty then.

 

Anyway, thank you all for your input, advice, etc.

Any time.

[slvrvetteragtop]

Since I opened (or re-opened) this can of worms, I get the castings!

 

My topic subject was, perhaps, inaccurate.  Here is what I am looking at.  My cash outlays are $211.21 for consumables; $397.96 for ballasts, scale, microscope and a water test kit; $86.80 for reusable containers; and $342.78 for 75% of the increase in electric usage, for a total of $1,038.75.  If I depreciate the $397.96 over 5 years, and the $86.80 over 4 times useage, I come out with a cost of $45.14 per gram delivered.  When I deliver another 15 grams, that cost will go down to $22.57.  With the next 15 grams, it will drop to $15.05. Around about that time, I will receive another electric bill, which will hike up the cost per gram delivered for prior deliveries, as well as change the cost of future deliveries, except that I will probably deliver another 15 grams, which will lower the cost of the previous deliveries. Now, add into the mix the plants that are in the bloom stage as well as the plants still in the vegetative stage.  I do not know the amount of deliverable product I will have, or what the resulting cost per gram would be if I were to cease operations.  At 150 grams delivered, the true cost goes to $4.51.

 

Oh, wait, there is more, add in the wasted time, effort, and consumables on male seeds.

 

But then, there will come a point where I would have to PAY my patient to accept deliveries, based on the concept of the law.

 

 

[Highlander]

Since I opened (or re-opened) this can of worms, I get the castings!

 

My topic subject was, perhaps, inaccurate.  Here is what I am looking at.  My cash outlays are $211.21 for consumables; $397.96 for ballasts, scale, microscope and a water test kit; $86.80 for reusable containers; and $342.78 for 75% of the increase in electric usage, for a total of $1,038.75.  If I depreciate the $397.96 over 5 years, and the $86.80 over 4 times useage, I come out with a cost of $45.14 per gram delivered.  When I deliver another 15 grams, that cost will go down to $22.57.  With the next 15 grams, it will drop to $15.05. Around about that time, I will receive another electric bill, which will hike up the cost per gram delivered for prior deliveries, as well as change the cost of future deliveries, except that I will probably deliver another 15 grams, which will lower the cost of the previous deliveries. Now, add into the mix the plants that are in the bloom stage as well as the plants still in the vegetative stage.  I do not know the amount of deliverable product I will have, or what the resulting cost per gram would be if I were to cease operations.  At 150 grams delivered, the true cost goes to $4.51.

 

Oh, wait, there is more, add in the wasted time, effort, and consumables on male seeds.

 

But then, there will come a point where I would have to PAY my patient to accept deliveries, based on the concept of the law.

 

Figure your time - probably 10 hours for those 150 grams (averaged out over time...of course not including set-up time).  And those 10 hours at what? about $20 per hour?  So $676.50 in expenses and $200 in labor = $876.50 for about 5.3 oz or about $165/oz.  Then suppose you drive 40 miles round-trip to deliver at 56 cents per mile = about $22.50.  That puts you just a little short of $200/oz.  Seems about right plus or minus a couple of 20-dollar bills.

[GregS]

Since I opened (or re-opened) this can of worms, I get the castings!

 

My topic subject was, perhaps, inaccurate.  Here is what I am looking at.  My cash outlays are $211.21 for consumables; $397.96 for ballasts, scale, microscope and a water test kit; $86.80 for reusable containers; and $342.78 for 75% of the increase in electric usage, for a total of $1,038.75.  If I depreciate the $397.96 over 5 years, and the $86.80 over 4 times useage, I come out with a cost of $45.14 per gram delivered.  When I deliver another 15 grams, that cost will go down to $22.57.  With the next 15 grams, it will drop to $15.05. Around about that time, I will receive another electric bill, which will hike up the cost per gram delivered for prior deliveries, as well as change the cost of future deliveries, except that I will probably deliver another 15 grams, which will lower the cost of the previous deliveries. Now, add into the mix the plants that are in the bloom stage as well as the plants still in the vegetative stage.  I do not know the amount of deliverable product I will have, or what the resulting cost per gram would be if I were to cease operations.  At 150 grams delivered, the true cost goes to $4.51.

 

Oh, wait, there is more, add in the wasted time, effort, and consumables on male seeds.

 

But then, there will come a point where I would have to PAY my patient to accept deliveries, based on the concept of the law.

You're ok. After all the number crunching you are covering costs and making some walking around money. That is just about as good as you can expect. There is a lot of cannabis out there from $200 to $275 a zip, which is about the market rate.. Find ways to conserve costs and maximize yield at the most efficient price. Like any commodity, prices vary with conditions on the ground.

 

What concept of the law requires you pay a patient to pay to accept delivery? I am unaware of any.

Edited March 15, 2014 by GregS

[trichcycler]

he was being facetious, paying a patient for a delivery...I  lol'd

[pergamum362]

Man...remember when this topic came up a couple years ago, the thread was locked almost immediately

[trichcycler]

the times, they are a changing

[pergamum362]

Lol your telling me, i was one of the first to try to open and honestly say whats pretty much been said in this thread.

[trichcycler]

maybe admin was afraid of "what readers would learn" ?

[GregS]

We need to be careful referencing Black's law because in Michigan a public initiative (such as the MMMA) is to be interpreted based on common terms rather than legal definitions (except, of course terms defined in the law itself).  This was explained to me by an attorney during the flurry of discussion regarding p2p sales.  After the COA ruled that "sale" is a "transfer for a price"  and the law only allows transfers - not sales, I looked up the definition of "transfer" in Black's.  The definition included a "sale."  I was thrilled because no common dictionary (Webster, etc.) defined "transfer" to include sale.  Sadly, Black's definition wasn't relevant 

That is, until the Supreme Court got hold of the case and ruled favorably that transfer includes sales. This baloney about donations should cease.

[+Malamute]

transfer w/compensation = sale.

 

I still think my Black's excerpts cover the concept... ;-p

[Wild Bill]

All this talk about free meds reminded me of a story from the Grade Ballroom. Janis Ian was performing and made statements on stage that money was evil and if it was up to her the show would be free but the promoters insisted on charging for it.

 

At the end of the show Russ Gibb brought her cut of the till out in a bag and dumped the cash out onstage, leaving her to kneel down and scoop it all up in front of the audience. Great fun for everyone but her.

[Norby]

Reasonable compensation is what someone will/can pay within reason of course.  The more you produce the less people will pay if you have to get rid of it.  Then you have outdoors or indoors, different costs and quality.  I'd still do it if I was getting $50/ounce although it wouldn't be near as good.  There is only so much time and things cost money.  I wouldn't put in the time if I wasn't making x$'s for the amount of time, I couldn't.  Someone else it may be $250/oz and not be as good.  Your only able to sell to 5 people so some people aren't going to know any better and will stay with caregivers who don't flush and pay more because of the strains they have.  OG will still work great even if it is harsh and overpriced for the quality accomplished.  Some people don't want the chronic because it affects their work and if it's 10%THC should that person only pay $100/ounce.  What about a 30% strain?  Should that be $300/ounce?  Just questions that I haven't even thought of yet.  I just pulled a # out of my arse that I knew would work for me.  I'm already sure there are lesser quality meds going for more strait from the caregiver out there.  There is also probably better for less.  Until there is a way for people to sample and an open market there won't be a consensus because of the difference in growing capabilities and the structuring of the "market".

[pergamum362]

Legalization. If the med law persisted through it, there would be a fight to be on that guys patient list.

[pergamum362]

Most likely it would, i believe.

[Guanotea1]

There is no absolute method of determining your costs, other than tracking them, and just waiting and seeing - doing the best you can along the way. The issue is that a lot of things can come up and change your game. I had this happen when one of my plants hermie'd. Having never seen a hermie before, I wasn't looking for it, boy did that screw things up!

 

In other grows I've seen batches of clones lost to pythreium, mites, powdery mildew, root aphids, budrot These people always had deeper issues in the grow but nevertheless caught the growers off-gaurd. I mean they obviously didn't KNOW they were doing something wrong until they got hit with a problem.

 

You can end up with some medicine that your patients simply don't like, not cause it wasn't grown excellently, they just simply don't like it. I had this happen with one plant that I really liked that my patients REALLY hated.

 

Someone I know, and myself, picked up a bad batch of nutrients from a particular company at two different times. I was warned, and should have just stayed away from the company, but I was able to find the problem quickly because of the warning.

 

The list of contingencies goes on and on and on until you've got your processes locked down and dialed in for an entire year. Even then, equipment fails, power goes out, legendary heat/cold waves can cause problems indoors and out, you can get sick, you can get busted, the list goes on and on. Caregiving is risky.  

 

I want to dispute the notion that the "best" strains only yield 2 oz. To me that's like saying hot girls can't possibly weigh more than 125lbs. Even if you only like skinny girls what if she's 6'? In this analogy, height is veg time / production method

 

At one point my cost per oz sold was $27 dollars. That didn't include my time, delivery, or grow space (that's not really deductible anyway). But it did include electricity, nutrients, and all consumables. Fudgeups and introducing many new strains drove that cost way up for me, but with my endgame in mind I'd do it again.

[pergamum362]

27 bucks eh?

[motorcitymeds]

Did I just read that correct..27 an oz cost to procure..?   OMG.....I wish mine was that cheap..LOL.  Maybe I need to go back to bud school...lol...

 

 

It seems every time I expand my garden I solve one thing then down the road another thing pops up.  All these years and I still am scratching my head as to what my bottom line fixed cost per oz is.  LOL. 

 

I was using like 15 Exhale bags in my room now I ran into a issue with the bags turning black or black spots so I threw out the bags...now looking into running a c02 tank....everyone says just get a burner or generator but shiiyat man those things are super dangerous like burn up your ceiling unsafe.   if I run a generator I will have to install a metal sheet metal over the entire ceiling.  It is truly always something going on in my garden lately.  But at the end of the day if your not totally active in your rooms you surely will run into some issues...in some form shape or fashion.

 

 

I just pray I keep my bug streak going..Never had Mites, Thrips or Aphids. 

 

 

The only issues i would even describe as a issue is Gnats but they come in all bags of Roots Organics....sadly.

[beourbud]

$27 will get you a whole tree in a Sun Grow Op