A Provisioning Centers Answer To Cannabis Testing Centers.

[t-pain]

Why are there exemptions for a visiting patient to sell? Is a visiting patient allowed to bring in pounds, if his state allows for it? Shouldn't there be something in the bill that says a visiting patient is subject to the same regulations Michigan citizens are?

Sec. 10. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, a

visiting qualifying patient, registered qualifying patient, or

registered primary caregiver who supplies, sells, transfers, or

delivers marihuana to a provisioning center that is registered,

licensed, or otherwise allowed by the municipality in which it

operates in compliance with this act is not subject to any of the

following for engaging in that activity

 

the MMMA says a visiting patient card has the same effect as a michigan card.

 

sec 3 (l) "Visiting qualifying patient" means a patient who is not a resident of this state or who has been a resident of this state for less than 30 days.

 

(before you ask, a "resident" means you have a michigan drivers license / right to vote in michigan. so you can be a resident of oregon, with an mmj card, and live in michigan. but you're still a resident of oregon. confusing i know. i dont even want to think about homeless peoples residency issues.)

 

sec 4 (j) A registry identification card, or its equivalent, that is issued under the laws of another state, district, territory, commonwealth, or insular possession of the United States that allows the medical use of marihuana by a visiting qualifying patient, or to allow a person to assist with a visiting qualifying patient's medical use of marihuana, shall have the same force and effect as a registry identification card issued by the department.

 

what this means, is that as far as we can tell, a visiting patient can grow in michigan...

if this is true, it follows that a visiting patient may sell to a disp if this bill is passed.

 

i'd like to read s-3 of course.

Edited December 17, 2014 by t-pain

[Restorium2]

option 1.  That was evident all along though.  Please, please explain to me why there can not be ramifications if it's voluntary.  I just can't seem to wrap my head around it and your killing me with the suspense.  And please hurry, only 8 minutes left.

The reason it was not evident is because you bring up 'ramifications' often.

Voluntary means you can choose not to be tested at all which means 'no ramifications at all'. Voluntary means you get to choose. You can choose to have no ramifications. Ramifications, specifically the fines and confiscation you were talking about, are part of the mandated option. You have been mixing the two and causing the confusion about which option you are talking about. 

Edited December 17, 2014 by Restorium2

[slipstar059]

that is not in the s-3 draft 3...

 

you are in the definitions, and 'manufactures' would refer to infused products likely... I see that word in g) as a word in the definition of a medical mj provisioning center, so it's been moved around... but to trying to look at this bill word by word is a bit of an error until you read it all and can see the bigger picture... and remember the next question is what is the definition of the word manufactures? lol

 

take a deep breath, I am trying to do that myself, remember not to fret too much about things that have not passed and do not have a Governor's signature.....

 

I am not sure why you are asking slipstar...?

This is from the definitions in the HB 5440 (the hemp bill).

2 (3) (2) "Manufacture" means the production, preparation,

3 propagation, compounding, conversion, or processing of a controlled

4 substance, directly or indirectly by extraction from substances of

5 natural origin, or independently by means of chemical synthesis, or

6 by a combination of extraction and chemical synthesis. It includes

7 the packaging or repackaging of the substance or labeling or

8 relabeling of its container, except that it does not include EITHER

9 OF THE FOLLOWING

So will the state be issuing "manufacturers" licenses? Is that why this is "a vote against homegrows"? If it's a provisioning center, can they be providing cannabis to dispensaries without the patient's plant count?

[Norby]

The reason it was not evident is because you bring up 'ramifications' often.

Voluntary means you can choose not to be tested at all which means 'no ramifications at all'. Voluntary means you get to choose. You can choose to have no ramifications. Ramifications, specifically the fines and confiscation you were talking about, are part of the mandated option. You have been mixing the two and causing the confusion about which option you are talking about. 

Voluntary does not mean you can choose not to be tested if you sell it.  Which is why I said if your patient wants to test it and you have too many pesticides on it there should be ramifications.  Any meds CAN be tested.  If you want to grow for yourself only, then you don't have to worry about being tested. Any clearer?

  Once you sell your meds they are not yours anymore and the person who has them CAN test them and if they are found to be toxic you can get in trouble(have the rest of your meds tested and taken if found to be over pesticide levels, fines, etc. as a nuisance to public health).   No mandatory testing. 

 

And that's because there are more than 2 options.  Voluntary testing with penalties if found to be toxic(any meds CAN be tested).  No testing of anything ever, as it is now, with no penalties(for some reason you want this one which is the most harmful to patients?). and mandatory testing where everything HAS to be tested before sold.

 

So you just want a free pass to never have your meds tested and no penalties if you are poisoning your patients?  Why?

Edited December 18, 2014 by Norby

[+Malamute]

I love how people suddenly become self righteous about marijuana quality and safety.

 

 "But what about the children!!!!  The Horror,.... the horror...."

 

Hahaha...

 

OMG, what have we done for 6 millennia without marijuana testing and zero deaths.  How can we possibly go on!

 

 

 

<sarc>

[Norby]

I just worry because these are sick people, mj grown indoors doesn't get washed off, smoked pesticides are different than swallowed pesticides, considering they hit the lungs and the only tests I've seen have shown dangerous levels of pesticides on over 1/2 of the meds sampled,  The problems I've seen back in NY were from growing strains that aren't acclimated for the area. molds, fungus, bugs, slugs. They'll do whatever they can to save it.  I've grown my own for over 25 years because of it.

 

Asthma, bronchitis, nerve problems and whatever else may occur, other than death, is acceptable?

[Restorium2]

If people/patients want to test it they can. If they don't like what the test shows quit buying it from that source. Simple as that. If you are concerned then protect yourself. We don't need anyone telling us we have to test. That's crazy stupid when you can just test it yourself and get the same results. 

[trichcycler]

Edibles sold to the public should have a minimal occurrence of rat feces, at least to the standards of peanut butter maybe?

But who is responsible for that inspection/testing? Maybe the producer? The retailer? tough questions I think. Would the FDA be the body inspecting products and manufacturing facilities? Even though they have no marijuana standards, and still hold it has no medical value by way of scheduling? this unfolding will be interesting.

[Restorium2]

Edibles sold to the public should have a minimal occurrence of rat feces, at least to the standards of peanut butter maybe?

But who is responsible for that inspection/testing? Maybe the producer? The retailer? tough questions I think. Would the FDA be the body inspecting products and manufacturing facilities? Even though they have no marijuana standards, and still hold it has no medical value by way of scheduling? this unfolding will be interesting.

If you just think about it you know there's no way to do that and make it work for patients. You just outlined the reasons why. If someone/patient is concerned about buying food at a dispensary then just buy the pure oil and not worry about rat crap(if that's your thing). Pure oil does the same thing anyway. Not like anyone has gotta buy a cookie. You can fill that medical need with a purer form that is harder to hide some rat crap in. It's just a choice thing. If you are scared then make your own cookie.

[trichcycler]

"pure" oil is difficult to quantify under a dispensary countertop and more so for a new patient. I wonder if laws allow other illegal retailers to sell food that has not been inspected for safety currently, or just the dispensaries ?

[Restorium2]

"pure" oil is difficult to quantify under a dispensary countertop and more so for a new patient. I wonder if laws allow other illegal retailers to sell food that has not been inspected for safety currently, or just the dispensaries ?

I was talking specifically about your issue 'rat crap'. Which is good to keep it specific here. Why would there be rat crap in oil? Rats wouldn't be attracted to it like flour or other baking staples. Any other specifics?

 

Can you see that no one absolutely needs a cookie and can work around buying one if they want to?

[trichcycler]

.... pesticides, solvents, molds, etc. --"rat feces" was an example of what food manufacturing, medical production, beverage etc facilities are inspected for, and the last thing I'd expect to be found in cannabis, but, would be included in a forced test surely.

I have no specific concerns with this testing crap anyways. It does not affect me currently. If I have to pay for testing for patients, or for dispensary sales, I'll no longer offer my services to anyone.

 

Yet, food and medicine production facilities are routinely inspected for all safety issues deemed by fda standards. I don't want those standards in my garden, and I fear the cost and controls they may force upon patients. 

[Restorium2]

.... pesticides, solvents, molds, etc. --"rat feces" was an example of what food manufacturing, medical production, beverage etc facilities are inspected for, and the last thing I'd expect to be found in cannabis, but, would be included in a forced test surely.

I have no specific concerns with this testing crap anyways. It does not affect me currently. If I have to pay for testing for patients, or for dispensary sales, I'll no longer offer my services to anyone.

 

Yet, food and medicine production facilities are routinely inspected for all safety issues deemed by fda standards. I don't want those standards in my garden, and I fear the cost and controls they may force upon patients. 

So complain and throw in the towel? Better to see a way through this and not point out problems with easy solutions for those of us in it for the long term. Just remember that anyone who wants something tested CAN. And MAKING ANYONE have cannabis tested will not work, it's basically game over for you and others like you. Work backwards from the answer to where we are now and I think you can see the light. For the concerned, voluntary testing does work. 

[trichcycler]

The patients I serve absolutely could not afford to spend one more dollar on their medicine(s). they count on me to supply gifts often just to be with an uninterrupted supply. I cannot produce their supply for one dollar less than I already do.  If testing was mandatory I fear patients would suffer, at least mine.

[Natesilver]

The patients I serve absolutely could not afford to spend one more dollar on their medicine(s). they count on me to supply gifts often just to be with an uninterrupted supply. I cannot produce their supply for one dollar less than I already do. If testing was mandatory I fear patients would suffer, at least mine.

But how do you know there aren't mold spores on it GM? Sure you can have the cleanest grow around, but how can you be 100% sure? Only way would be a lab test. I hope none of your patients have a compromised immune system- you could be putting them in dire jeopardy. Is it worth the risk to them? You are gambling with their health, Russian roulette some might say. Does it weigh on your conscience GM?

 

Just kidding

Edited December 18, 2014 by Natesilver

[+Malamute]

Can someone show me actual documented cases of immune suppressed individuals being harmed by cannabis?

 

The burning process destroys almost all impurities.

 

 I continuously hear " O MY GOD< THEY WILL DIE",... yet the worst I have seen or experienced is a sore throat and maybe lung irritation that is gone almost immediately after cessation.

[trichcycler]

But how do you know there aren't mold spores on it GM? Sure you can have the cleanest grow around, but how can you be 100% sure? Only way would be a lab test. I hope none of your patients have a compromised immune system- you could be putting them in dire jeopardy. Is it worth the risk to them? You are gambling with their health, Russian roulette some might say. Does it weigh on your conscience GM?

 

Just kidding

I know right! that and the laws, and the cost of legal representation, exposure....all are considerations to be digested when considering beginning, or ending the service.

 

btw, I definitely don't have the cleanest grow room around! embarrassed, but honest. It was a greenhouse, with a dirt floor steel walls and a clear roof, ac, heat, 220, etc....but dirt on the floor spoiled me. then I switched from hydro to dirt, holy moly!! I need a 420 chick bad! A patient gave me a robovac that never stops "detecting" debris.

 

for a couple years I did buy mold spore count kits to sample the air in the grow room spaces, my drying room, and individual packaging occasionally. I did this originally for my tissue culturing area. I learned a lot then, enough to know I wont need to be worried as long as my controls do not fail their settings. There are spores everywhere, counts are what matters when looking for an issue. Types are easily identified, and are of importance too, but usual suspects are to be expected, just not elevated counts. I was lucky to have started with brand new construction and a fresh bleaching, then wet runs with no plants, (flood and drain) then plants, to show the differences. Mold is on clothing worn outside, shoes, hair, for thought. Carbon scrubbers, UV and ions go along way to keeping the air clean(enough) for what I do. The only mold I saw that bothered me occurred on green cannabis leaves within the worm bin. Easily resolved by drying the harvest trim before feeding to the worm bins. MY worm farms were intensive and often wet. Tea production was constant, temps were elevated, and dirt/black gold was exchanged weekly. Those are high risks for mold but the dried trim eliminated the concern. I fired the worms in the grow room this summer, my back thanks me.

[trichcycler]

internet bits

 

Most effects seem to be allergic reactions or asthma, which usually occur "in sensitive individuals. About 15 million Americans are allergic to mold. The most common reactions are flu-like symptoms and asthma. Those with chronic lung or immune problems, are at risk for more serious reactions like fever, lung infections and a pneumonia-like illness.". Most actual sicknesses (like the one from aspergillus), bronchitus, mold "growing" in your lungs, is not a problem for healthy individuals and is not a prominent factor in the most common molds.

 

Surprisingly most research indicates that if a strain is particularly bad, it is MUCH worse when digested than when inhaled, Anaerobic Bacteria for example is one of these, while not very harmful if inhaled, it is FAR more devestating when ingested.

 

 

 

The only "deadly" mold seems to be one named Stachybotrys, and it is rare. . As well it seems more deadly (or perhaps higher infection rate) to infants and elder people, or people with generally bad immune systems.

 

The most common mold is Aspergillus, and it occurs literally everywhere, from the soil to the trees.. you have definitely inhaled it before if you've ever been outside, and it is not a problem for people with regular immune systems. The problem with this mold arises with people with extremely low immune systems (AIDS, marrow transplants, etc..), where it may cause problems. To further emphasize this point, "Aspergillus is a group of moulds which is found everywhere world-wide, especially in the autumn and winter in the Northern hemisphere. Only a few of these moulds can cause illness in humans and animals. Most people are naturally immune and do not develop disease caused by Aspergillus. However, when disease does occur, it takes several forms.. As well, The simplest may be contaminating pot with fungi like Aspergillosis, which is still toxic when smoked. Healthy people can inhale the spores and not get sick, but medical marijuana users can contract skin disorders, pneumonia and other pulmonary infections, some of them fatal.

 

Anaerobic Bacteria, which only grows in dark and air tight (ie. sealed jar) situations.. Anaerobic specifically means that it does not require oxygen to grow. This one is easy to identify (brown & slimey, plus you had your stash air tight), you should never run into it, but if you do it's best to just throw it out. The most common of these is a mold known as Clostridium botulinum, and everything you could want to know about it is here: http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap2.html.

 

Penicillium is another common one. From what I've read, it seems that it is not much of a concern. It's usually rather benign, and is most common from refrigerating (seems to prefer cold). Your only real worry here is from contamination from putting something with the weed that can get Penicillium (ie. for re-hydration purposes), as we can see here: "Adding peels to pot imparts a "pleasant bouquet" (Frank & Rosenthal). = the "blue citrus mold,"

 

 

A wet, dank or otherwise humid basement has produced the most amount of mold spores I've seen. Growing in that environment is ludicrous. Attics with insufficient heat have show me high spore counts also I assume from the colder nights meeting the hotter days.

 

Controls are made to specifically address every atmosphere issue and avoid mold issues while practicing good garden habits. Planting seeds before you own a dehumidifier, ac, heat, scrubbers, fans, etc is risky to plants and maybe people.

[mibrains]

well... Wow

 

ok

 

i feel compelled to chime in here (as usual )

 

it seems to me there is a lot of contention about testing being "mandatory" or "voluntary"

 

i think in my humble opinion that anything that is "offered for sale" at a dispensary needs to be inspected at a minimum and tested probably.

 

how do you test a large batch sample?

thats a great question...

 

well... if a person brings in any amount of cannabis for resale... then how about we have a specific set of standard protocols that ensure patient safety at a minimum... and if we must resell cannabis through a third party dealer then mandatory testing is not out of the question.

 

by the way...it would be really easy to get a Batch sample.

many have suggested sampling a small part of any particular batch.. choosing a "bud or two" from the batch to test...

in my head.. an entire batch would be put through a "device" with a "screen" so once rotated a small sample of the entire batch would fall on to the sample collection plate.

easily collected this would allow a generalized sampling of the entire product.

 

what would those above mentioned testing protocols look like?

 

is there mold?

is there pesticides?

what is the Thc profile?

is this cannabis safe to consume?

 

an answer is needed for each of these questions.

 

anyone afraid to subject their product to specific industry mandated standard testing is most likely trying to hide something.

 

does this cost fall on the caregiver?

sometimes

does this cost fall on the dispensary?

sometimes

does this cost fall on the consumer?

sometimes

 

this is a discussion about industry standards and safety.

 

cannabis should be no different from any other market industry..

today it is... tomorrow it WILL MAY NOT BE.

 

together we stand united in a cause beyond our own individual sight.

 

let go of the little things everyone.... embrace the truth.

 

the TRUTH is

 

CANNABIS WORKS.

 

PERIOD.

 

spread that word.

 

as far as mandatory testing?

 

yes - some standards must be established..

much like the "cottage laws" many people eluded to earlier in this conversation...

there are standard to every industry for resale safety.

 

testing does not directly correlate to standards.

 

a law can insist on a particular set of standards to comply with - and yet still not require testing.

 

i subscribe to the Michigan state recall notice list serve...

 

be aware everyone that on average 3-10 food items are recalled in Michigan every week for some kind of "standards violation" - undeclared peanuts - ecoli - any number of bacterial infections...

 

my point?

 

you all need to relax on this argument and be sure to "think it through"

 

it is imperative that we all stand united as far as standards of resale are concerned... we do not need our opponents introducing standards that we must comply to...

 

it is up to us to come together and rationally discuss the pros and cons of each and every system available.

 

Kudos to you all for maintaining civility in this thread.

 

it got touchy on page 2-3 but you all self regulated and brought the conversation back on track.

 

i am proud of everyone who has participated in this discussion.

 

it is a heated one... to be blunt..

 

and one that is on many peoples minds.

[+Malamute]

Refer to USP standards for testing.  :-)

 

 I am thinking maybe <68> or <69> maybe. <61>?  Eh,.. go look it up.

 

 Then look at <1111>.

[Restorium2]

Quote; anyone afraid to subject their product to subjugated testing is trying to hide something.

 

OR they just don't want to pay for a test. Any test these days that is fair, comprehensive, and has oversight over how and when it is done would be hard to support on the limited distribution that is allowed by the law. We can transfer small amounts and testing is expensive. I think it would take a certain level of suspicion that a crime was being committed to warrant a search of your marijuana(testing).

[+Malamute]

Anything sold commercially will almost certainly be tested. 

[OZONE]

all this will be a moot point if the provisioning center bill doesn't pass

[mibrains]

Quote; anyone afraid to subject their product to subjugated testing is trying to hide something.

 

OR they just don't want to pay for a test. Any test these days that is fair, comprehensive, and has oversight over how and when it is done would be hard to support on the limited distribution that is allowed by the law. We can transfer small amounts and testing is expensive. I think it would take a certain level of suspicion that a crime was being committed to warrant a search of your marijuana(testing).

 

WAIT

i wanna edit

 

they would incorporate the testing cost into their bottom line.. just like any industry must..

 

if you refuse to be tested... you are trying to hide something.

 

bottom line.

 

you may want to try to stand on your own laruels about not wanting to waste your money..but why should anyone take you at your word?

 

when it comes to resale.. it is not about a caregiver and a patient having a specific relationship.

 

it is about a commercial deal.

a "for profit" deal

on everyones end hopefully..

 

so specific testing of all products for resale should be mandated.

 

i don't trust you.

you don't trust me

why would i not insist you prove it before i buy it from you?

 

keep in mind we are discussing PCs and not caregiver patient relationships.

Edited December 18, 2014 by mibrains

[mibrains]

all this will be a moot point if the provisioning center bill doesn't pass

 

maybe

but it might be a point in the next set of crappola they introduce...

 

it is a long term ongoing battle.

 

we fight the good fights.

 

we will remain united...