Going Topless Outdoor

[beourbud]

Wooden slat top.....too funny

[Restorium2]

Wooden slat top.....too funny

We know that is out of the question. So we have 'chain link fencing or similar material'. What is similar to chain link fencing for security? 

[+Malamute]

Hmm,...

 

I personally would simply put chain link or some type of wire meshing over the top.

 

For $100 it is worth it.

 

Now, the absolute 100% INTENT of the written law is that it includes all sides except the base.  Rep. Cavanaugh who wrote it stated many times it specifically meant it should have a top.  It was the whole point of stating "except the base"; including the base as a side.  Then further going onto how to secure the base by attaching or affixing to t he ground.

 

Secondly, never trust the police.  Their policy 'may' follow that, but it is for police officers, not the general publics or patients guidelines about what will be considered legal in a court room at this point.  I assume many different standards may exist in different counties at this point.

 

 Does the law state it must have a top?  By inference only.

 

Why not roll out some mesh over the top?  Or many have to put some type of view obstruction over the top to keep neighbours from being able to see it from their roof.

 

Spend a few bucks and put something over it is my opinion. Safe than sorry to me.

 

 

 

Having spent time with Mr Cavanaugh and sharing thoughts on the subject, I can tell you he is a very knowledgeable and reasonable man. He never mentioned a garden with a top. Why would he? And if he wanted a top on the Garden he would have described it in detail, because that is the kind of detail oriented fellow he is.

 

 

 I can 100% guarantee to you that it was 100% Cavanaugh's intent that a cover of some sort is needed. There is no discussion needed to the contrary on that issue because it is unfortunately simple fact. But, just because it is the intent, doesn't necessarily mean a court will see it that way. The court rules on the words.

 

He didn't want people reaching in over the sides and having easy access to your cannabis. 

 

"Don't shoot the messenger".  I am merely passing on the info so others can make their own decisions with as much information about it as possible.

 

I mean,  at one point in the life of that bill, it required any outdoor grow to be like 25ft(or some number) from any property line and myriad other requirements.

 

Could it have been written better? Oh god yes. We tried. Oh we tried. I can paraphrase Cavanaugh's response in that " I have worked on this long enough, no more changes. It is good enough".  Heh.

 

Anyhoot, here is a snippet from the Senate summary of the bill:

 

Enclosed, Locked Facility

The MMMA provides that a registered qualifying patient and a registered primary caregiver are not subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty and may not be denied any right or privilege for possession or cultivation of certain amounts of marihuana. A patient who has not specified a primary caregiver may cultivate up to 12 marihuana plants kept in an "enclosed, locked facility". A caregiver may cultivate up to 12 marihuana plants kept in an enclosed, locked facility, for each registered qualifying patient who has specified the primary caregiver. (Each qualifying patient may have only one primary caregiver, and a primary caregiver may assist not more than five qualifying patients with their medical use of marihuana.)

The MMMA defines "enclosed, locked facility" as a closet, room, or other enclosed area equipped with locks or other security devices that permit access only by a registered primary caregiver or registered qualifying patient.

Under the bill, "enclosed, locked facility" would mean a closet, room, or other comparable, stationary, and fully enclosed area equipped with secured locks or other functioning security devices that permit access only by a registered primary caregiver or registered qualifying patient. Marihuana plants grown outdoors would be considered to be in an enclosed, locked facility if they were grown within a stationary structure that was all of the following:

-- Anchored, attached, or affixed to the ground.

-- Located on land that was owned, leased, or rented by either the registered qualifying patient to whom the marihuana plants belonged or the person designated through the registration process as the primary caregiver for the registered patient or patients.

-- Equipped with functioning locks or other security devices that permitted access only by the registered primary caregiver or registered qualifying patient upon whose property the structure was located.

-- Enclosed on all sides, except for the base, by chain-link fencing, wire mesh, wooden slats, or a similar material that prevented access by the general public.

 

 

I found it interesting in the summary that wire mesh is added.

 

Also, it was discussed if you are using a hoop house, it must be lined on the inside with said "chain link... or similar...".

 

I dunno,... to me, when I read all sides but the base it makes sense there must be a top.  Cavanaugh when told wtf,  responded that sun goes right through chain fencing or a similar type material. "shrug"

 

If I am going to weigh in with my personal opinion, I will say you had best put a fukn top over that thing be it chain link, wire mesh or similar type material.

 

:-)

[+Malamute]

Oh, I knew I forgot to add something else to the hoop house thing:

 

How many sides does a standard hoop house have?

 

 

 

 

p.s. And yes I get the argument/debate that a hoop house is actually governed by the "indoor definition" of enclosed locked facility. But how many sides does it have?  How many sides does a round/circle enclosure have?  Not even a hoop house. A 10' diameter circle grow.  (pic added just to get idea across)

 

 

 Quit thinking within the box!  ;-p

[Restorium2]

He didn't want people reaching in over the sides and having easy access to your cannabis. 

 

Exactly why my first question on this was;

 

If you have a 10 foot fence with razor wire on top then why do you need a top?

[Restorium2]

10' fence with razor wire needs a top? Why?

[Highlander]

We are not discussing a Ship or a Die , We are discussing a Garden. Ships and dies have top sides, Gardens Do Not.

There is No Top to a Garden. Only those who do not want Outdoor Grows subscribe to a top for an Outdoor Garden.

If the Garden has base four sides and top , the garden would be inside the permanent structure and Not an Outdoor Grow.

If it is completely enclosed it is a indoor grow or Green House, Not an Outdoor Grow.

Depending on the top you use, the environment inside the grow will not be the same as Outdoors. Therefore Not an Outdoor Garden

it doesn't make any sense to a Farmer. An Outdoor Grow is in the Sun. No Top.

Had the law read, completely enclosed than a top would required, But it doesn't and why would it?

The fact that the top was not mention or described in detail as the sides and base are suggests the author has knowledge of Gardening.

If it was so important it would not be omitted .

We need to keep this in context....it is a Garden

Some may have a better perspective than others, but if you look at many prisons, They are locked and enclosed facility, with a base and all sides permanently secured, many with chain link...(Tent City) Most have yards within those sides where the GP are allowed to get some sun and in many instances garden. High walls / fences hell yeah, Tops No

Gee so many haters , funny most were the same folk pushing for dispensaries and extracts. Telling people they were legal all the while they were getting busted. Lol. Must be sour grapes.

Has anyone been specifically convicted/arrested for no top on their Garden? Cutting plants down does not equal prosecution. Leo will Jack you up anyhow.

Who here, if they were writing the law , would put a top on a garden....Not a Gardener or Pharmer

is the concept of a top a security measure or just another restriction on us poor patients trying to grow the best meds possible? Does 5 mil of plastic constitute security? No. What's the point?

The dispensary lobby does not want Outdoor Grows. They are trying to regulate them out of existence.

Having spent time with Mr Cavanaugh and sharing thoughts on the subject, I can tell you he is a very knowledgeable and reasonable man. He never mentioned a garden with a top. Why would he? And if he wanted a top on the Garden he would have described it in detail, because that is the kind of detail oriented fellow he is.

Put a top on if you want, no one is stopping you. But don't force your foolish misconceptions on the rest of us.

We understand the risk and rewards.

Long Live Outdoor Gardens

Eta....my comments are addressing the issue and not aimed directly at you Highlander

This is a reasonable approach to the argument. But what we need is a dictionary definition of "side" that is relatable to a garden. The courts will have to pull out a dictionary if asked to make such a ruling.

[Restorium2]

I found it interesting in the summary that wire mesh is added.

 

What summary? I've been looking at the Michigan State Police Official Update 103. I thought that was the wording in the law. Did they miss quote it?

[Restorium2]

This is a reasonable approach to the argument. But what we need is a dictionary definition of "side" that is relatable to a garden. The courts will have to pull out a dictionary if asked to make such a ruling.

Would the judge take into account the security of the structure or would he just get into meeting FF Cavanaugh's wording? 

[Highlander]

 

10' fence with razor wire needs a top? Why?

 

One guess would be that razor wire is against most zoning ordinances. So it would be just as troublesome for the legislature to offer a security solution that most people couldn't take advantage of. Same goes with 10 foot fences. In most places you can't have a fence higher that four feet in a front yard, and the maximum allowable height is usually six feet for side and backyards.

[+Malamute]

 

Exactly why my first question on this was;

 

If you have a 10 foot fence with razor wire on top then why do you need a top?

 

 

Philosophically I agree Resto.

 

But deep thinking and sensibility unfortunately do not go into writing laws usually. Hahahaha.... basterds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What summary? I've been looking at the Michigan State Police Official Update 103. I thought that was the wording in the law. Did they miss quote it?

 

 

 

Anyhoot, here is a snippet from the Senate summary of the bill:

 

 

[Highlander]

Would the judge take into account the security of the structure or would he just get into meeting FF Cavanaugh's wording?

 

I don't know how a judge could rightfully consider security instead of the wording of the law. When judges have done that in a way that is not favorable to us, people get justifiably angry.

[Restorium2]

 

Definitions on legal outdoor growing are included in the Update, which says the plants cannot be seen by the unaided eye, the permanent structure must be enclosed on the sides and must be on land owned or rented by the actual caregiver themselves. It also defines legal transport of marijuana plants, including the provision that no one may be in the car except the patient or caregiver themselves during transport.

The Updates are created by the State Police. “This update is published by the Michigan State Police, Office of the Director, Legislative and Legal Resources Section.”

View the complete Update here:

MSP Legal Update No. 103

 

[Restorium2]

^^^^ MSP got it wrong? Look at the file for 103

Edited April 2, 2016 by Restorium2

[Restorium2]

I don't know how a judge could rightfully consider security instead of the wording of the law. When judges have done that in a way that is not favorable to us, people get justifiably angry.

Kingpin.

[+Malamute]

MSP has gotten it wrong many times in their legal updates.

[Restorium2]

MSP has gotten it wrong many times in their legal updates.

Was the wording changed at the end? Why would they leave out that part? It seems far fetched to just pass it off as a typo.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Restorium2

[Highlander]

Kingpin.

That was a different matter because this was before the amendment that defined requirements for an outdoor grow. The judge rightfully ruled that the cameras and Kingpin himself constituted an adequate security system, because the law said " other security" and no type of enclosure was necessary. The new language doesn't offer "other security"

[+Malamute]

Was the wording changed at the end? Why would they leave out that part? It seems far fetched to just pass it off as a typo.

 

I don't recall the term "wire mesh" ever being actually in the bill/law.  But ".. or similar" seems to fit under it.

[Restorium2]

MSP has gotten it wrong many times in their legal updates.

I just took the time to look at the actual law and MSP has it right. The one I posted; Chain link fence, wood slats, or similar.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Restorium2

[+Malamute]

I was talking about the whether a top is needed.  I know what the law says about types.... ;-p

 

And several times MSP updates have had flawed interpretations, that were later revised.

[blackhorse]

Anyone can go to Google Earth and see your outdoor grow. I recently looked up my home and there it was. Only shows some weeds growing in the grow area, must have been early spring.

 

Just something to think about.

 

This is new aerial view of this area in last three years

[dutchfarm]

I have two 28'x32' outdoor grows, 24 plants in each grow. Saw my farm on Google Earth too, you could see the structures, but the inside of the grows were blurred out, must have been summer :>) Our visit from SANE was about 6 or 7 years ago and were growing with no enclosure, they took our plants, but left my wife's jarred medicine for her, they actually did not want to take our plants, but their superiors told them to take them, over the phone( The state trooper that was here told the prosecuting attorney that he thought we just did not understand the requirements for our grow and the prosecutor decided not to press charges on SANE's initial visit when we were not in compliance). Things could have gone a lot worse!!! I did ask them how the holy H. are we to grow outdoors in a closet???? They said I needed a 4 sided enclosure, the one guy said some places require a top and some places do not( he worked undercover around the state), suggested I put one on just to be safe from arrest, I am 62 years old and that was the nicest I had ever been treated by the cops. So, we built the first grow using lumber and chicken wire. After it was built Billy Bong Schuette said it had to be secured to the ground , I thought WTF? I took 6 - 2"x 6" 5 feet long, pointed them with a chain saw, drove them in the ground and lag bolted them to the main frame. The second one we used 12 foot long cedar posts sunk into the ground 4 feet at 8 foot intervals. Used concrete mesh panels to cover the grow( on top too). We live less than a mile from the Canadian border,have acreage(we farm) and are in the bush( no close neighbors), the helicopters have flown over every year since our first grow was built and so far they must feel we are in compliance. The whole experience was nerve racking, even dreamed I was in jail a few times. We try very hard to stay within the confines of the law, just wish it would get totally legalized, been waitin 48 years, jeesh!!

                                                             Farmer Brown

[phaquetoo]

Oh, I knew I forgot to add something else to the hoop house thing:

 

How many sides does a standard hoop house have?

 

 

Hoop-house.jpg

 

 

p.s. And yes I get the argument/debate that a hoop house is actually governed by the "indoor definition" of enclosed locked facility. But how many sides does it have?  How many sides does a round/circle enclosure have?  Not even a hoop house. A 10' diameter circle grow.  (pic added just to get idea across)

 

geo_08_cartoon_graphik_2.png

 

 Quit thinking within the box!  ;-p

Ok I will Play!

 

After checking out resto's tutorial, I would say it has 2 ends and 1 side,

 

Im going to go with 6 sides, 4 walls, ceiling, and ground/bottom

 

wtv     

 

Peace

[Restorium2]

Ok I will Play!

 

After checking out resto's tutorial, I would say it has 2 ends and 1 side,

 

Im going to go with 6 sides, 4 walls, ceiling, and ground/bottom

 

wtv     

 

Peace

Good point!

 

They worded the law so everyone thinks they comply but no one ever really does if they want to get picky about it.

 

That's what law enforcement always wants; A tool for extortion.