Koon Decision Killed Mmj For Now. Demand And Prices In Freefall

[CaveatLector]

Again .. THC is both schedule 1 and three.

 

In our system the government is required to prove a crime.

 

You are making the case that a person is presumed guilty if unable to prove innocense.

 

The defendant isn't supposed to prove ANYTHING if the PA doesn't prove them guilty.

 

If I recall correctly the chemical structure of dronabinol is slightly different from that if thc. In other words there are characteristics present in one that are not in the other. However, I do not KNOW this but my memory tells me that this is the case from when I researched it more than 10 years ago. At any rate if they are distinguishable then obviously there must be a way to discover whether the chemical present is thc or marinol.

[CaveatLector]

Is there active thc in your system after taking marinol? If there is then the marinol prescription should help. If marinol is prescribed then it def. cannot be considered schedule 1. The prosecution should have to prove that you had a schedule 1 in your system not marinol.

Marinol, as far as I know, is not prescribed for pain. It is generally only used as an antiemetic for chemo patients OR for appetite stimulant for patients that are wasting (AIDS patients, etc).

[CaveatLector]

Marijuana itself is schedule 1 and contains multiple cannabinoids, including THC. THC is the active ingredient of Marinol, a schedule 3. So they are not synonymous. And this is not semantic "call it what you will," they can be told apart by a lab. Testing to distinguish them would certainly be requested if you were to claim to have Marinol in your system.

 

 

 

As stated above, they could prove it. And not only would your felony conviction stick, but you'd be facing a slew of other charges as well. Again, you're offering a bad theory as fact. Be your own guinea pig if you want, but stop misleading this community.

 

Thank you. Misleading and/or bad advice is my biggest concern on this forum.

[AKenewell]

Marinol, as far as I know, is not prescribed for pain. It is generally only used as an antiemetic for chemo patients OR for appetite stimulant for patients that are wasting (AIDS patients, etc).

 

Correct.

[trix]

Re: Does marinol (dronabinal) test post for THC./

7 months ago ~

 

Yes, Marinol gives you a positive for THC in most drug tests. There is a more discriminating (and expensive) test that can tell the difference between the natural and synthetic THCs by looking for one of the lesser cannabinoids, THCV.

 

Delta9-tetrahydrocannabivarin as a marker for the ingestion of marijuana versus Marinol: results of a clinical study (abst - 2001) Unbound MEDLINE | Delta9-tetrahydrocannabivarin as a marker for the ingestion of marijuana versus Marinol: results of a clinical study. PubMed Journal article abstract

 

Results from link above from clincal studies;

ElSohly MA, deWit H, Wachtel SR, Feng S, Murphy TP

Delta9-tetrahydrocannabivarin as a marker for the ingestion of marijuana versus Marinol: results of a clinical study. [Clinical Trial, Journal Article]

J Anal Toxicol 2001 Oct; 25(7):565-71.

 

 

Delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the main psychologically active ingredient of the cannabis plant (marijuana), has been prepared synthetically and used as the bulk active ingredient of Marinol, which was approved by the FDA for the control of nausea and vomiting in cancer patients receiving chemotherapy and as an appetite stimulant for AIDS patients. Because the natural and the synthetic THC are identical in all respects, it is impossible to determine the source of the urinary metabolite of THC, 11-nor-delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol-9-carboxylic acid (THC-COOH), in a urine specimen provided in a drug-testing program. Over the last few years there has been a need to determine whether a marijuana positive drug test is the result of the ingestion of marijuana (or a related product) or whether it results from the sole use of Marinol. We have previously proposed the use of delta9-tetrahydrocannabivarin (THCV, the C3 homologue of THC) as a marker for the ingestion of marijuana (or a related product) because THCV is a natural component of most cannabis products along with THC and does not exist in Marinol. We have also reported that THCV is metabolized by human hepatocytes to 11-nor-delta9-tetrahydrocannabivarin-9-carboxylic acid (THCV-COOH); therefore, the presence of the latter in a urine specimen would indicate that the donor must have used marijuana or a related product (with or without Marinol). In this study, we provide clinical data showing that THCV-COOH is detected in urine specimens collected from human subjects only after the ingestion of marijuana and not after the ingestion of Marinol (whether the latter is ingested orally or by smoking). Four subjects (male and female) participated in the study in a three-session, within-subject, crossover design. The sessions were conducted at one-week intervals. Each subject received, in separate sessions and in randomized order, an oral dose of Marinol (15 mg), a smoked dose of THC (16.88 mg) in a placebo marijuana cigarette, or a smoked dose of marijuana (2.11% THC and 0.12% THCV). Urine samples were collected and vital signs were monitored every 2 h for a 6-h period following drug administration. Subjects were then transported home, were given sample collection containers and logbooks, and were instructed to record at home the volume and time of every urine collection for 24 h, and once a day for the remainder of a week (6 days). Subjects were also instructed to freeze the urine samples until the next session. All urine samples were analyzed by GC-MS for THC-COOH and THCV-COOH using solid-phase extraction and derivatization procedure on RapidTrace and TBDMS as the derivative. The method had a limit of detection of 1.0 ng/mL and 1.0 ng/mL for THCV-COOH and THC-COOH, respectively.

 

 

I'm doing alot of reading on this subject, from everything I have found thus far they can determin if they have appropriate funds to test for which chemicals are doing what. I will hush my fingers untill I have more facts in front of me to provide.

 

Trix

[Cannalytics]

As per Cannalytics post on page 5 of this thread, to which peanutbutter responded with misinformation about naturally-derived dronabinol.

 

I suppose the only way this argument could work is if someone made a knock-out mutant of cannabis that shut down the synthesis of all cannabinoids other than THC.

[bobandtorey]

Marinol, as far as I know, is not prescribed for pain. It is generally only used as an antiemetic for chemo patients OR for appetite stimulant for patients that are wasting (AIDS patients, etc).

i used it for pain meds and the Doc gave it to me for pain

[michaelscott]

I thought half the reason for mm was to get off the scripts, now the advice is for 130000 people too go out and get a prescription for marinol. what do you think the consequences of this could be?

 

it would kill mm, why have mm if every patient is using marinol.

[bobandtorey]

I thought half the reason for mm was to get off the scripts, now the advice is for 130000 people too go out and get a prescription for marinol. what do you think the consequences of this could be?

 

it would kill mm, why have mm if every patient is using marinol.

 

marinol cost way more then mm

[michaelscott]

my point is that it would be an admission to whoever wants to listen that marinol works and mm is not needed.

[peanutbutter]

As stated above, they could prove it. And not only would your felony conviction stick, but you'd be facing a slew of other charges as well. Again, you're offering a bad theory as fact. Be your own guinea pig if you want, but stop misleading this community.

 

They can indeed prove it. But they don't.

 

And then they rest their case.

 

Being unable to introduce any more evidence, they can no longer prove it. Their side is done.

 

It is at that time the defense could point out that the state didn't make their case.

 

No claim to anything about the defense either way. Just that the state didn't do their job.

[peanutbutter]

To put this to rest, here is the DEA controlled substances schedule: http://www.deadivers.../c_cs_alpha.pdf

 

Currently, generic Marinol products made with naturally-extracted THC are still schedule I (DEA number 7370). Synthetic Marinol and generics approved by the FDA (don't know if there are any) are on schedule III (DEA number 7369).

 

This is the last proposal by the DEA to move these naturally-extracted generic versions of dronabinol into schedule III, as the synthetic. It was unsuccessful: http://www.deadivers...2010/fr1101.htm

 

If there has been any movement on this front since I have been unable to verify it. I do not think there has been.

 

Sorry for being a pia ..

 

Yep it was proposed not passed .. very sorry everyone.

 

That said .. Every single case fails to prove schedule one via lab results. Every single one of them.

[Morhawk]

 

That said .. Every single case fails to prove schedule one via lab results. Every single one of them.

 

So you are saying Koon should go back to court and say "Oh yeah, I was so stoned and drunk that I forget to tell the judge I was on Marinol that I stole from the pharmacy?" Then he should have a legal leg to stand on?

[peanutbutter]

Thank you. Misleading and/or bad advice is my biggest concern on this forum.

 

I was wrong about the proposed changes. They were proposed more than a year ago. I thought they had been adapetd.

 

They have not been.

 

So the difference between the two forms of THC, physically, is that the natural form would likely have at least trace amounts of other natural compounds along with the THC. The THC is the same from either source.

 

It is very wrong that someone caught with marinol in their system is presumed guilty until they prove they are innocent.

It is supposed to be the state that has to prove a case.

[peanutbutter]

So you are saying Koon should go back to court and say "Oh yeah, I was so stoned and drunk that I forget to tell the judge I was on Marinol that I stole from the pharmacy?" Then he should have a legal leg to stand on?

 

No .. to late for that case.

 

Other evidence was introduced that the THC was from the plant. The defendants statements make the option void.

[peanutbutter]

I thought half the reason for mm was to get off the scripts, now the advice is for 130000 people too go out and get a prescription for marinol. what do you think the consequences of this could be?

 

it would kill mm, why have mm if every patient is using marinol.

 

Because it is legal to drive with Marinol in your system.

 

If you must drive, then switch to the legal form to drive. If you must.

[pic book]

marinol cost way more then mm

Does insurance cover marinol? How about Medicare?

[AKenewell]

Peanutbutter,

 

First, you argue that THC from marijuana vs marinol is indistinguishable. Then you cede that point and start talking about making marinol yourself. That would be counterfeiting, fraud. Alright, so you won't do that. You argue that generic marinol is available as a whole plant extract and that that is indistinguishable. No, generic marinol is not available. You cede that. Now you're putting forward an argument that people should drive on marinol. Heh.

 

NO! Do not do that.

 

That fact is that if you're on Marinol and using medical marijuana, they can tell. They are wise to the tactic you're describing. If you, as a patient, were to declare marinol as one of your medications, and their goal is to say 'this guy was using marijuana,' they will take the test to the next level, check for non-THC phytocannabinoids. Beyond that, marinol is only indicated in the treatment of nausea such as comes with chemotherapy and the anorexia one might find with advanced AIDS. Most MM patients wouldn't qualify for it. And doctors who write for marinol expose themselves to the DEA in a direct way, since controlled medications are tracked through the michigan automated prescription system (MAPS). Since it has a narrow list of indications, is expensive, and it really doesn't work well, many pharmacies don't even carry Marinol. Few doctors will write for it, and only where it is clearly indicated.

 

So not to sound like a broken record, but stop putting out false information that isn't true and trying to present it as fact.

[AKenewell]

Thank you. Misleading and/or bad advice is my biggest concern on this forum.

 

That is also my biggest concern on this forum.

[peanutbutter]

Peanutbutter,

 

First, you argue that THC from marijuana vs marinol is indistinguishable. Then you cede that point and start talking about making marinol yourself. That would be counterfeiting, fraud. Alright, so you won't do that. You argue that generic marinol is available as a whole plant extract and that that is indistinguishable. No, generic marinol is not available. You cede that. Now you're putting forward an argument that people should drive on marinol. Heh.

 

NO! Do not do that.

 

That fact is that if you're on Marinol and using medical marijuana, they can tell. They are wise to the tactic you're describing. If you, as a patient, were to declare marinol as one of your medications, and their goal is to say 'this guy was using marijuana,' they will take the test to the next level, check for non-THC phytocannabinoids. Beyond that, marinol is only indicated in the treatment of nausea such as comes with chemotherapy and the anorexia one might find with advanced AIDS. Most MM patients wouldn't qualify for it. And doctors who write for marinol expose themselves to the DEA in a direct way, since controlled medications are tracked through the michigan automated prescription system (MAPS). Since it has a narrow list of indications, is expensive, and it really doesn't work well, many pharmacies don't even carry Marinol. Few doctors will write for it, and only where it is clearly indicated.

 

So not to sound like a broken record, but stop putting out false information that isn't true and trying to present it as fact.

 

Just great .. I would go and agree with you.. then you describe schedule 2 when Marinol is schedule 3.

 

Anyway .. my word on the topic is about worthless now ..

 

If you stub yout toe you can get a script for Vicodin. That is scheduled the same way as Marinol. For whatever the doctor sees fit.

[CaveatLector]

Peanutbutter,

 

First, you argue that THC from marijuana vs marinol is indistinguishable. Then you cede that point and start talking about making marinol yourself. That would be counterfeiting, fraud. Alright, so you won't do that. You argue that generic marinol is available as a whole plant extract and that that is indistinguishable. No, generic marinol is not available. You cede that. Now you're putting forward an argument that people should drive on marinol. Heh.

 

NO! Do not do that.

 

That fact is that if you're on Marinol and using medical marijuana, they can tell. They are wise to the tactic you're describing. If you, as a patient, were to declare marinol as one of your medications, and their goal is to say 'this guy was using marijuana,' they will take the test to the next level, check for non-THC phytocannabinoids. Beyond that, marinol is only indicated in the treatment of nausea such as comes with chemotherapy and the anorexia one might find with advanced AIDS. Most MM patients wouldn't qualify for it. And doctors who write for marinol expose themselves to the DEA in a direct way, since controlled medications are tracked through the michigan automated prescription system (MAPS). Since it has a narrow list of indications, is expensive, and it really doesn't work well, many pharmacies don't even carry Marinol. Few doctors will write for it, and only where it is clearly indicated.

 

So not to sound like a broken record, but stop putting out false information that isn't true and trying to present it as fact.

 

Very true. Highly unlikely your local rite aid carries marinol. More than likely you have to get it from a hospital pharmacy and particularly a hospital with a cancer center.

[peanutbutter]

Very true. Highly unlikely your local rite aid carries marinol. More than likely you have to get it from a hospital pharmacy and particularly a hospital with a cancer center.

 

You would be a good person to ask this of.

 

Is the THC in Marinol exactly the same chemical as in cannabis?

 

I know there are other things in the plant. I'm asking about the chemical THC. Is it exactly the same chemical?

 

Is this statement true:

 

THC may be either:

Schedule 1

Schedule 3

[CaveatLector]

You would be a good person to ask this of.

 

Is the THC in Marinol exactly the same chemical as in cannabis?

 

I know there are other things in the plant. I'm asking about the chemical THC. Is it exactly the same chemical?

 

Is this statement true:

 

THC may be either:

Schedule 1

Schedule 3

 

I'm not a good person to ask. I am not a chemist. The makeup at the molecular level of thc versus synthetic thc in marinol is what you need to know to answer that question. My understanding is that there are minor differences in the molecular structure such that marinol can be differentiated from thc. But, again, I don't know first hand.

 

However, it probably doesn't matter because Michigan law states the following:

 

(8) A person, whether licensed or not, shall not operate a vehicle upon a highway or other place open to the general public or generally accessible to motor vehicles, including an area designated for the parking of vehicles, within this state if the person has in his or her body any amount of a controlled substance listed in schedule 1 under section 7212 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.7212, or a rule promulgated under that section, or of a controlled substance described in section 7214(a)(iv) of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.7214.

 

Reading that tells you that you cannot drive with a substance listed in schedule 1. If the thc is the same in Marinol as in cannabis then you cannot drive on the thc in marinol either because it, by definition, is included in schedule 1. But, again, I don't know enough about this stuff.

[bobandtorey]

Does insurance cover marinol? not on my plan witch is medicare part D How about Medicare? no

[peanutbutter]

I'm not a good person to ask. I am not a chemist. The makeup at the molecular level of thc versus synthetic thc in marinol is what you need to know to answer that question. My understanding is that there are minor differences in the molecular structure such that marinol can be differentiated from thc. But, again, I don't know first hand.

 

However, it probably doesn't matter because Michigan law states the following:

 

(8) A person, whether licensed or not, shall not operate a vehicle upon a highway or other place open to the general public or generally accessible to motor vehicles, including an area designated for the parking of vehicles, within this state if the person has in his or her body any amount of a controlled substance listed in schedule 1 under section 7212 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.7212, or a rule promulgated under that section, or of a controlled substance described in section 7214(a)(iv) of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.7214.

 

Reading that tells you that you cannot drive with a substance listed in schedule 1. If the thc is the same in Marinol as in cannabis then you cannot drive on the thc in marinol either because it, by definition, is included in schedule 1. But, again, I don't know enough about this stuff.

 

I believe Marinol has an exception carved out for it. That is what makes it listed within schedule three.